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There was a post in the Raging Heroes thread that I think might warrant a thread of it's own, maybe.

Saxon wrote:
Everyone and his wife has underestimated the demand for female soldiers... once these factions expand with bikes etc, and add-ons will come...

Anyone who is following this kickstarter and participates in the HHHobby should be pretty pissed disappointed with Games Workshop.

There is no reason anyone should have underestimated the demand for female infantry. There have been dozens and dozens of threads on this on Dakka Dakka alone; where there was page after page of people saying they wished there were more female models in 40k. 30 years, and no female guardsmen! It's mind boggling. They have left, literally, millions of dollars on the table in squandered opportunity. Moreso, they have utterly and totally failed the gaming community in this arena.



It's not like they can't do it. The Dark Eldar line shows it's totally possible for them to make good looking and gender-diverse models. They just decided we didn't want them; and they decided so because, presumably, they didn't feel like making them.

Rightfully, someone smaller and faster got there first and are now reaping the rewards of this overripe demographic, moving models at literally Forge World prices with minimal complaints (and those are generally about shipping and the minutiae of the Kickstarter, not the sculpts base price or quality).

Do you think this will influence 40k, and WHFB? Have you found other games systems do better in this, and have been more or less successful? Infinity, I believe, already is pretty well represented in gender. Share with the class.

I'd include Female Cadians in my army, were I to run IG. Makes complete sense from a fluff standpoint (they "draft" EVERYONE on Cadia) and would add diversity to models.

I'm not sure why they haven't.

Not sure what that picture has to do with the post. Also, not sure why we are supposed to be mad at GW for them not producing female minis. Yeah, it a market they are missing out on, but not sure why we would be mad about that.

Angry? Not really.

Disappointed, though.

 kronk wrote:
Angry? Not really.

Disappointed, though.

Yeah, I would agree with this.

 pretre wrote:
Not sure what that picture has to do with the post.

It's a reference to the film Serenity. The operative at one point... well; it's a good movie so I won't spoil it for you, if you choose to watch it.

 pretre wrote:
Also, not sure why we are supposed to be mad at GW for them not producing female minis. Yeah, it a market they are missing out on, but not sure why we would be mad about that.

Because Games Workshop is supposed to be serving us, yes? I mean, yeah, they're supposed to be making monkey for their stockholders as their first responsibility, just like every other good corporation. But that's underpinned by bringing us the products we want to buy. They have utterly failed to do so, and they have done so despite gross evidence that there is a market waiting to be tapped. Maybe "mad" might not have been the best word. Perhaps "disappointed" should have been used?

If you're a kid whose only FLGS is a gee-dubs, which is I believe a fairly common occurrence, wouldn't you wish they had released first party models that you could use in the store?

We should be pissed at GW? Only if you're trying to introduce politics into the game by saying it's not gender equal. And I hope to god you're not. That is literally the only reason to be "pissed" or anything resembling "angry" at GW for not doing female guardsmen.

You're looking for "gamers were left wanting by GW", not "gamers should be pissed at GW".

OK, lets ratchet it back to "disappointed"; then, and go from there?

I hope the next IG plastic kits will have some female sculpts. We'll see. There is certainly demand, though!

 Ouze wrote:
Because Games Workshop is supposed to be serving us, yes? I mean, yeah, they're supposed to be making monkey for their stockholders as their first responsibility, just like every other good corporation. But that's underpinned by bringing us the products we want to buy. They have utterly failed to do so, and they have done so despite gross evidence that there is a market waiting to be tapped. Maybe "mad" might not have been the best word. Perhaps "disappointed" should have been used?

You have the relationship a little backwards, I think.

GW have no specific obligation to provide us with what we want. They produce models. If we like them, we buy them. If we don't, then for the most part we don't.

You don't have some god-given right for any company to produce exactly what you want. You do have the right to seek what you want elsewhere if one particular company isn't giving you the product you want.


Getting mad because one particular company isn't making what you want? That's time to step away from the keyboard for a while, seriously.

 Ouze wrote:

Because Games Workshop is supposed to be serving us, yes? I mean, yeah, they're supposed to be making monkey for their stockholders as their first responsibility, just like every other good corporation. But that's underpinned by bringing us the products we want to buy. They have utterly failed to do so, and they have done so despite gross evidence that there is a market waiting to be tapped. Maybe "mad" might not have been the best word. Perhaps "disappointed" should have been used?

Stop ranting. You are using hyperbole to greatly overstate things with WAY to much emphasis. How the hell have they utterly failed to bring us the products we want to buy? The fact they are in business says otherwise. Come back with real evidence that sales would increase, which basically means showing a substantial increase of sales within a line once female models are introduced into an all male line.

I've no problem with female models, but do have a problem with someone up in arms over nothing.

 Ouze wrote:
Because Games Workshop is supposed to be serving us, yes? I mean, yeah, they're supposed to be making monkey for their stockholders as their first responsibility, just like every other good corporation. But that's underpinned by bringing us the products we want to buy. They have utterly failed to do so, and they have done so despite gross evidence that there is a market waiting to be tapped. Maybe "mad" might not have been the best word. Perhaps "disappointed" should have been used?

If you're a kid whose only FLGS is a gee-dubs, which is I believe a fairly common occurrence, wouldn't you wish they had released first party models that you could use in the store?

If you're a kid that only has a GW, I doubt I'd give two salty gaks if there were female models in my tiny soldiers army.

As much as I'd welcome some female infantry, I couldn't care less. Not a single bit. Does it have anything to do with misogyny? Naw. I just don't care enough to worry about it. I'd rather they had no females than a bunch of gakky looking females.

As to that market, I don't think it's as large as you think it is, especially if they're outfit as they SHOULD be if they're in the 40k universe: Looking pretty much exactly like their male counterparts with perhaps a slimmer face, a ponytail, and small chest bump. And please, don't pretend that the only draw of the Raging Heroes line is that they're females. A good portion of it is that they're good looking and/or shapely females.

I'm wondering if the few female IG mini's that they had produced in the past were a form of market research to determine how female Guardsmen were to be received.

Also remember that if they went with female guardsmen in a boxed set, it'd have to be a completely different set of sprues and moulds for a female model (different proportioned body parts compared to a male's), which means less interchangeability. That, combined with those who want only an all-male army, would detract from the option of making a mixed kit. Why? Because GW likes us to know that their females are females. If you've ever seen a real-life female soldier wearing body armour and a helmet, you'd be hard-pressed to tell her apart from her male counterparts. But GW would like us to "know" that they're female by giving their armour "chest bumps" as cincydooley said, like we have had for the past (Female Commissar, SoB..).

 Ouze wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Not sure what that picture has to do with the post.

It's a reference to the film Serenity. The operative at one point... well; it's a good movie so I won't spoil it for you, if you choose to watch it.

 pretre wrote:
Also, not sure why we are supposed to be mad at GW for them not producing female minis. Yeah, it a market they are missing out on, but not sure why we would be mad about that.

Because Games Workshop is supposed to be serving us, yes? I mean, yeah, they're supposed to be making monkey for their stockholders as their first responsibility, just like every other good corporation. But that's underpinned by bringing us the products we want to buy. They have utterly failed to do so, and they have done so despite gross evidence that there is a market waiting to be tapped. Maybe "mad" might not have been the best word. Perhaps "disappointed" should have been used?

If you're a kid whose only FLGS is a gee-dubs, which is I believe a fairly common occurrence, wouldn't you wish they had released first party models that you could use in the store?

I've seen serenity and I still don't get what he as to do with this. I think Jubal Early would make more sense, comparing his opinion of women to GW's

As far as I can see OP isn't calling GW a bunch of sexists, simply saying that more gender diversity among the kits would make them more interesting and could be a potential money-spinner, given that a quick Google search will show that htere are a lot of people out there willing to spend money to get 28mm female infantry. I agree.

GW have certainly missed a trick by not at least trying to take advantage of that interest. Even if they only produced a head sprue, I think they'd be flying off the shelves.

The lack of female models in 40K isn't even fluffy. BL stories are loaded with female characters. Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar don't discriminate based on gender. The Imperial Guard will take anyone who can hold a lasgun the right way round. The other armies are either all-male (Marines) or essentially genderless. For an example of well-done depictions of female IG, take a look at the Only War books: female soldiers who are recognisably women without straying into ludicrous territory. If the sculptors were careful they could easily replicate this.

Victoria Lamb is supposed to have some female kits on the drawing board. Looking forward to seeing what she comes up with.

 Ouze wrote:

There is no reason anyone should have underestimated the demand for female infantry. There have been dozens and dozens of threads on this on Dakka Dakka alone; where there was page after page of people saying they wished there were more female models in 40k. 30 years, and no female guardsmen! It's mind boggling. They have left, literally, millions of dollars on the table in squandered opportunity. Moreso, they have utterly and totally failed the gaming community in this arena.
...
They just decided we didn't want them; and they decided so because, presumably, they didn't feel like making them.

I'm not sure that you're not over-representing the demand for female soldiers, and the nature of opportunity costs. What Raging Heroes is doing is great, and I'm signed on for it, so I'm certainly not trying to say there is no demand. However, to say that it's a missed opportunity is not as simple as the question "to make them or not to make them", it's "to make them, or make something else". I think it's pretty obvious that the mature hobbyist is no longer GW's core target market. People who post on dakka are probably of far less interest to GW than the countless numbers of 12-15 year old boys who will play for 2-3 years and then discover real (not miniature) girls.

If female soldiers were really a huge ripe market, SoB would probably not have been relegated to a magazine-supplement codex and mail-order-only models. And so while it's possible that they left some money on the table by not making female guard, I reckon that money is minimal compared to what they'd make by doing another box of space marines.

It's not like they've not been busy. They've completely redone the necron and dark eldar lines in the last few years, along with a rapid-succession of releases across the board. Which of these releases would you have cut for yet-another-IG-sprue? What's more, would doing so cannibalize sales from their own other line? Each pack of female cadians they sold would be a pack of existing cadians that they're not selling.

Are you sure that the current plastic Cadians are all male? Because according to GW, men and women share the same body except for maybe boobs:

Dark Eldar:
Male:


Female:


High Elves:
Male:


Female:


They are not aware of any differences in male and female bodies, so for all we know, Cadians are already all female

That said, difficult to listen to customer wishes, if you constantly live in a panic room.

I have the Sisters of Avelorn/Shadow Warrior kit.

There is a significant difference in terms of the body. It's not illustrated well in the pictures.

 Redbeard wrote:
If female soldiers were really a huge ripe market, SoB would probably not have been relegated to a magazine-supplement codex and mail-order-only models. And so while it's possible that they left some money on the table by not making female guard, I reckon that money is minimal compared to what they'd make by doing another box of space marines.

These are both really good points, though I'd hasten to add that the lack of success that Sisters has seen has many other factors as well - weak rules, expensive models that are metal only, haven't been updated in forever; etc etc. I'm not sure they're the best example to use.

But I hadn't considered that they simply would have made more money just by making more giant vehicles for proven armies, for example. Perhaps the sales of the Stormraven and the other SM flyer were simply more profitable routes to go.

 Ouze wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Not sure what that picture has to do with the post.

It's a reference to the film Serenity. The operative at one point... well; it's a good movie so I won't spoil it for you, if you choose to watch it.

No, I get what the pic is from and the reference. I may be slow, but I don't get what it has to do with the topic.

Because Games Workshop is supposed to be serving us, yes? I mean, yeah, they're supposed to be making monkey for their stockholders as their first responsibility, just like every other good corporation. But that's underpinned by bringing us the products we want to buy. They have utterly failed to do so, and they have done so despite gross evidence that there is a market waiting to be tapped. Maybe "mad" might not have been the best word. Perhaps "disappointed" should have been used?

One might argue that they haven't brought enough of the products we want to buy. Obviously, they are still bringing us the products we want to buy. And disappointed is much better.

I've always been under the impression that if I wanted female minis, aside from the ones that are already provided by GW, I would be able to use a second party source to accquire them.

It's like getting mad at McDonald's for not selling General Tso's chicken.

But seriously, McDonald's, what the hell?

 Monster Rain wrote:
It's like getting mad at McDonald's for not selling General Tso's chicken.

But seriously, McDonald's, what the hell?

Companies should provide everything I want!

Is it really that big a deal though? I mean, you can't actually see that much detail on a mini, could you actually ping a female cadian from a male cadian when they wear helmets and body armor?

Maybe GWs approach was simply that with IG for example, you would hardly be able to notice a difference, they wear helmets and uniforms. I've seen birds IRL military formations, and you can't tell the difference from 50 yards if they are wearing webbing, body armour, helmets and shades.

You could arge that raging heros and such are more sexist and gak, because they are pardoies of how combat women should look.

You know, less combat, and more skin showing/tits hanging out.

Frankly I think IG and such are more than acceptable being almost gender neutral, I mean, I like the sisters because they actually look violent and generally except for a few sculpts just look like guardsmen in power armour with a bit more hair.

Maybe they could add some long haired muscular catachan chicks, but as cincy says, I hardly think its a major issue.

A human wearing armor and a helmet is going to be pretty generic. The idea that women need sexualized armor which distinguishes gender with curves and boobplates is kinda part of the problem.

I have yet to see many people who sculpt female heads actually well, but except for the musclebound catchans, most of the other humanoid soldier models could easily be women under all that armor.

All they need to do is kinda remove the fake 'bewb armor' from the models and not make poses of people firing a gun like they are a sexy maid and then they may have some real female models worth buying.
Personally, I find a want for 'females' different from 'cheesecake' and I don't want cheesecake. I find most of the raging heroes concepts absurd. No one is going to fire a heavy chaingun with a shirt which allows underboob to poke out. It is insane. No cyborg automoton is going to have a low-cut boob exposure.

No one needs armor with Boobs on it. In war they will have unisex armor and just wear a sports bra that keeps everything out of the way.

I have been wanting Fantasy Females much like how WOW has female designs for all their characters. You can have a Female Orc without her being a bad joke or an over-sexualized cheesecake mold. I would rather realistic females which are in normal unit assortment where if it makes sense, have orcs with men and women in it.

I am not sure I agree that pandering cheesecake models to adult men shows that GW missed a market for 'female' models when it kinda just boils down to men wanting cheesecake and not making true realistic dual-gender representation for rank and file.

I'm mad at them because they discontinued their only sexy babes!




GW dropped the ball there

GW has proven again and again they have serious problems sculpting females... so they just say its errrr not what customers want Yeah right!

Gorilla hands and oversized anatomic flaws are less forgiving on a delicate female anatomy sculpt.

Are Deathkorp all male due to the cloning process, or are female clones present too?

Some of the Steel Legion minis could be female. Basically it's just the models with uncovered faces that give it away... 3rd party covered heads?

.... DkoK are clones?

Well genetically engineered and birthed through some kind of machine. Sounds like grown in a tube, perhaps not strictly clones.

 Ouze wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
If female soldiers were really a huge ripe market, SoB would probably not have been relegated to a magazine-supplement codex and mail-order-only models. And so while it's possible that they left some money on the table by not making female guard, I reckon that money is minimal compared to what they'd make by doing another box of space marines.

These are both really good points, though I'd hasten to add that the lack of success that Sisters has seen has many other factors as well - weak rules, expensive models that are metal only, haven't been updated in forever; etc etc. I'm not sure they're the best example to use.

But I hadn't considered that they simply would have made more money just by making more giant vehicles for proven armies, for example. Perhaps the sales of the Stormraven and the other SM flyer were simply more profitable routes to go.

I seem to recall a period of time when all the Catachan guard minis (this was before I believe they had Cadians...) were all metal. Point is, if there's a demand, GW can make the go from metal->plastic.

Kanluwen wrote:I have the Sisters of Avelorn/Shadow Warrior kit.
There is a significant difference in terms of the body. It's not illustrated well in the pictures.

Can you deny with a straight face that all plastic male and female Dark Eldar as well as all male and female models from the Shadow warrior kit share exactly the same lower body from the waist downward?
Can you deny with a straight face that in real life, male and female bodies look different from the waist downward?
And I am not even talking about the mess of a sculpt that GW presents for female elven heads for the Avalorns.

NAVARRO wrote:I'm mad at them because they discontinued their only sexy babes!

Not only that. They alienated the sculptor so much, that he finally fled 1st of June just to save his soul.