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It seems you're set against buying the models necessary for list B...does that mean you have the models for A or C?

B and C are stronger lists because they are both anti-meta. Because of the hell turkey, people will be ready for lots of terminators; hence the aforementioned plasma spam. 4 Land Raiders is 4 Land Raiders. I play a similar list with DA sometimes using their dakka banner and 3 LRCs. It can be very effective. Few armies can deal with that much AV14.

Ultimately, C is the strongest though. For a time, at least some of your CSM will be protected from the likes of the bale flamer until their metal bawkses are popped. Weight of dice and sheer numbers means a lot in 40k. I would at least mix in some plasma though. After all, not all your units will be charging most of the time. Take half as plasma squads to babysit objectives.

While C is the best, B is fun to play, quick to build and most importantly, fulfills the s*&^ out of rule #1. My recommendation? Pay in cash, drag the boxes on the cement a few times and buy some orange sale stickers to put on the boxes with prices akin to a yard sale. "Look honey! Look at the deal I got on these beat up minis!"

"....that's great babe..."

mercer wrote:Not like someone is going to drive up to you in tank.

They would if I didn't take meltaguns.

That is, in fact, sort of the point of them. Either they deter my opponent from getting close (in which case, job done), or they severely punish something that decides to get close in anyways. The best part is that 6th ed lost by-unit moving, so I can just move the meltaguns forward without forcing the lascannon to snap fire.

ghpoobah wrote:A couple of units of Spawn would give that threat all the time, 15 Toughness 6 Wounds that can throw out 40 Poisoned str 5 attacks on a good roll? Plus, they're amazing at tarpitting if your opponent has something you're going to struggle to deal with!

I'm still not really feeling it, though. It's like... what are they really doing that I couldn't do with a bunch of CSM with bolters?

The Shrike wrote:It seems you're set against buying the models necessary for list B...does that mean you have the models for A or C?

Well no, it's just that I didn't want to get them all at once. I was clarifying that the purpose of speed wasn't necessarily so that I could get started playing tomorrow so much as it would allow me to work more on modelling and to get things done in a reasonable time.

The Shrike wrote: "Look honey! Look at the deal I got on these beat up minis!"

"....that's great babe..."

Lol, embezzlement and deception - the perfect start to any chaos list!

Of course, I don't know if I'd quite have the guile to pull it off. I'd wind up making some stupid mistake like putting "Milk: PAID" or "Thank you for shopping County Market" stickers on there, or something....

Actually if you are planning on doing alot of green stuff work to show case your talent you should really think about buying badly painted models off ebay, purple power the paint off, and you can fix any damage on the land raiders, etc. with green stuff.

Some of my coolest conversion came about because some one destroyed a series of models so I had to add bionic body parts or make skeletons coming out of their graves, or model battle damage to a broken vehicle. With chaos and renegade damaged a beat up actually look cool. Additionally you can get land raiders for 30-50 dollars a pop on ebay if you just bid with the expectation to only win 1 of 5 bids.

DA kinda do the land raider spam better with a PFG techmarine on a bike following them around and a banner of devastation to salvo 4 the bolters on 3 crusaders. Actually talking about DA if you want to do a fallen army you can get the dark vengeance terminators (5 termies) to convert for 15 usd(w/ shipping) off of ebay. I converted a fair number of them to TH/SS termies a few months back and they are great to work with.

Oh man, that is frigging brilliant. It would take some work to convert those powerfists, but hey, I do greenstuff. Of course, I don't know how necessarily cheaper they're going to be because I also have to buy CSM bolters to make the combi bolters properly. And, I suppose some of the spikey things. In the end, I fear it might not be much cheaper.

The other problem and this is going to sound really stupid, is that while I can use GS skills to repair things (which, in a way, I already am), the better I do at GSing, the less it's obvious that I've done anything at all.

I don't know... I guess I'd want something a bit more... flashy?

Anyways, that's a golden idea on the land raiders, though, as it really is just the same kit, but one comes with spiky bitz, right? All I'd need to do is order a couple of vehicle accessory sprues, and I'd have everything I'd need to make a beat-up light-side land raider into a chaos one. Especially now that I have some actual skill with plasticard...

It would cost approximately 16 usd (free shipping) for the terminators, ~1.5 usd per combi-bolter terminator arm (before ~4 usd combined S&H), and 6 usd per 4 terminator power weapon arms (before 3 usd S&H). So for 10 terminators it would be 32+15+4+18+3 = 72 usd versus the ~80 usd + S&H (say ~90) for 2 termi boxes (this is assuming thewarstore.com prices or better). There will also be 2 left over PW arms. Admittedly the box will come with extra goodies so this may not be a real savings, though if the box comes with enough goodies you may want to think about buying some of the DA termies to "chaosify" with the left over bitz.

With the GS it is kind of like repair the damage and then undo your repair until it looks like metal damaged...does that even make sense?

So, I know you don't want to deal with the Helldrakes, sure. My question is how you are looking to deal with insane cover save units?

Melee is an answer for most; EG, Gone to ground pink horrors, Telion Scouts, Eldar rangers, Shadowsun, etc.

But then there are the melee beasts that still exist: Invisible beastmaster deathstar, DE Harlistars, etc. Even 10 strong terminators are going to have a rough time with a ton of high Initiative rending attacks.

However, I'm forecasting the biggest problem is going to be Eldar Jetbikes. Late game objective jumping has become difficult in this edition, and only some armies can pull it off effectively. Those armies are not-so-coincidentally the ones winning tournaments. Eldar can, for 220 points (10 windriders and a Warlock with the shrouded primaris) drop 11 wounds with 2+ cover saves that they can zip far out of charge range most of the game, and score (or at least deny) in the endgame.

Some of your lists have some decent weight of fire, which is how you'd have to deal with a slippery, cover-driven unit. So, I would err on the side of more dakka when list building.

Also, if you are looking for the quickest way to get your CSM to the table, have you considered ally-ing in your Guard? A manticore, a platoon blob, and a squad of scout sentinels could pair nicely with the type of army you are trying to build (at least while you are amassing models)

@Dalymiddleboro: You know how I know that you're just trolling the rest of us?
It's when you said this:

I'll keep playing the best model point for point in the game, not to mention one of the coolest looking ones.

You really cant be serious, or are you smoking the same stuff the model designers had when they came up with the flying dinobot?

Also I'm happy to say that I'm winning more than I'm losing, Heldrakefree and all

 Ailaros wrote:

mercer wrote:Not like someone is going to drive up to you in tank.

They would if I didn't take meltaguns.

That is, in fact, sort of the point of them. Either they deter my opponent from getting close (in which case, job done), or they severely punish something that decides to get close in anyways. The best part is that 6th ed lost by-unit moving, so I can just move the meltaguns forward without forcing the lascannon to snap fire.

Doesn't matter if they did drive up in a tank anyway, the tank has done it's job. The melta still only has a 12" range, not like it is going to be going far. Most time will be sitting there doing nothing.

All right, with some further thought, how about this as a list idea. It kind of combines all of them, a little bit

D.) The blending


Abaddon

Terminators (4) - champ with c-melta, p-fist, 2x c-melta, heavy flamer, power fist, Land Raider
Terminators (5) - champ with c-melta, p-fist, 2x c-melta, heavy flamer, chainfist, Land Raider

Chosen (5) - 3x meltaguns, lascannon, Rhino
Chosen (5) - 3x meltaguns, lascannon, Rhino

Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend


The gist, of course, is that 7 vehicles move forward 18" turn 1. My opponent has to decide if he wants to try and break abaddon or a bunch of terminators out of land raiders before they wreck face, or if they want to down the maulerfiends before they absolutely wreck face, or if they want to down the rhino with the extra melta/scoring units.

Regardless of what survives my opponent's reaction, there is going to be serious lascannon/melta/maulerfiend/terminator/abaddon hell to pay starting turn 2.

And it still seems like it would be pretty quick to build.

What is your response for hordes?

You have 3 anti horde weapons (I am counting Abaddon) as far as I see and the rest of your stuff will struggle to eliminate the numbers a horde army brings.

What is your response for skimmer spam?

With the new eldar and D. eldar they can pop the rhinos and then stay outside 18" of your other units who all can only move a maximum of 18" a turn (12" move +6" flatout). When you corner the skimmers they can just turboboost across the board and start the cat and mouse again.

I assume you are using the land raider lascannons and deep strike the terminators to handle this. However you may want to think about some sort of fast chasers to help you corner the skimmers.

Also it should be noted that Abadon is a death star damage output by himself. He doesn't really need the terminators and in fact may overkill the enemy (ideally when you assault you want to finish the assault in 2 assault phases so you do not get shot). I usually see abadon in a low damage output unit like cultists so the cultists can take the bullets and abadon can do the damage.

I really like list A, but unless I'm missing something isnt it far more than 1850 points? Almost 400 per termie unit and 375 of the maulers? I'd love to be proven wrong since that looks like a ton of fun.

Yeah, I'm not too worried about hordes. 15 WS4 power axe/maul attacks on the charge are good enough to do heavy damage to infantry, plus, as you note, abbadon. Also, don't discount the maulerfiends. They don't do the most damage, but they will also win every close combat. Meanwhile, if they're getting tariptted, that means that you're talking about a lot of dudes with special rules (like an azrael blob), which means, at only 125 points, it's the maulerfiend that's doing the tarpitting. Plus, I'm still going to have bolters and other short-ranged weapons, and even 5 chosen are going to beat a lot of junk infantry units, especially if they've been weakened.

I've played enough horde in 6th ed to see just how little you need to be able to take them down. I'm really not that worried.

Skimmer spam, I agree, will be more difficult to deal with, but, just like I think hordes are overrated, so do I think a lot of mobility is. Mobility only helps you bring firepower into range, which means that you're going to be in range for teleporting maulerfiends and assault ramp terminators, meanwhile, if you're running away, you're running away from objectives. Otherwise, you're running into a corner, and when that happens, I just win, because all those points spent on mobility rather than killing power are just a net loss when you have nowhere to run to.

You're certainly right about abaddon, though, and that's one of the secrets. Really, I'm bringing three terminator squads somewhere in just two land raiders. Both abaddon and his "retinue" get to take advantage of the assault ramp, but they don't both have to attack the same target.

And in list A, the termies don't cost 400 points per squad. 10 termies with everybody with a combi-weapon is only 300 points.

The only horde armies I think you really might struggle against are nids and orks. You could always magnetize or pin the combi weapons so you can swap them to flamers if you find these match ups are a problem.

A 30 man ork boyz unit vs your 5 man termi unit will actually win the melee after 3 assault phases. This is assuming mauls on the termies (the best weapon against orks) and the orks can get all their models into the combat, this also assumed the orks did not have a PK (which is ridiculous). The orks will even walk away with 22 models left...so yeah there is a major problem there, you may need to stay out of CC with orks and play the shooting game.

Nidz will trap you in CC with their chaff and then charge in with a nasty MC against your non abadon unit. Your unit will fold against most MC due to the no PFs. The flyrant BTW is one of the only critters around which can solo abadon in CC.

IG is only really a gunline horde now which is not really a problem as you say. USR based IG hordes are actually more a fun gimmick than a seriously competitive list. They also have to run around in blobb squads which makes them deathstars which you can bait-cluster or avoid as you are relatively mobile.

The skimmers can plink away with BLs or their equivalents from 36" away (most such lists bring enough of these to put down at least 1 LR a turn). Once you are out of your transport they can effectively ignore your bolter shooting termies. Not to mention that even the basic 10 man squad eldar guardians (troops) can kill 2 termies in a single shooting phase. On the other hand once you "trap" them in a corner they can simpy turbo boost over your head and the whole process begins again.You can definitely get on the objectives and try to hold but then you either only hold 1 objective or face his entire army against 1/2 or 1/3 of your army. I would probably recommend deep striking as you can "waste" 2 of the skimmer players turns and make him react to where you drop the termies (which can be right behind his skimmers if he committed to the attack).

I like list A and the new list the best (list A better). I feel however the formula for the weapons loadout is going to take a lot of testing and you could really use some fast chasers or some sort of board control.

Hmm, I can see the argument for more powerfist on the terminators. I guess the problem I have is where to take the points from. If I drop the illegal heavy flamer from the 4-man squad down to a combi-weapon, I guess I can sneak in another one. I could also thin down the chosen, but that doesn't seem like the best idea.

I'm not actually that worried about orks, honestly. The only mob I'm likely to come across is shootas, and, with a klaw, a mob of 30 costs 50 points more than the 5x terminator squad. With the raider, though, I'm getting the charge, which means no +A, and no FC for the boyz, and that power klaw is getting absolutely nowhere near the terminators thanks to the challenge system. Yeah, the boyz still win, but not with over 20 models left (running the numbers, I got more like 12-16), and that's against something that costs more, and is a lot less mobile. It would be much, MUCH easier to get two squads of terminators into close combat with a single boyz mob, than to get two boyz mobz in close combat with a single terminator squad.

Plus, orks can't consistently destroy land raiders, and I'm not required to get the terminators out. A legitimate weakness, I'll grant, but not one that's completely hopeless, thanks to the serious advantages of force concentration relative to hordes.

As for the fast stuff, I still don't get it. If I plant my terminators on objectives to contest them, and my opponent runs away... they're running away from objectives, and I win the game. Their mobility has done them nothing.

Furthermore, there's no such thing as the parthian shot in 40k. Nothing is fast enough, especially vis. a vis. what I'm bringing, to escape retaliation. Guardians that are close enough to down a terminator or two with rending are going to have their faces ripped off next turn. Meanwhile, terminators in a land raider have a hypothetical 24" threat range. If something is trying to turboboost over my land raiders, they have to do the 24" of the threat range, + 5" of the land raider, + another 24" to get out of the threat range on the other side. Nothing in this game moves 53" in a single movement phase. It is possible to trap even jetbikes.

But that's all rather beside the point, as the real advantage of mobility in 40k is that it allows you to do cool stuff with force concentration. With just terminators and maulerfiends, though, I win the force concentration game, or, at least, it's not a straight loss.

Plus, the fastest things in the game are also those most vulnerable to the 5 lascannon hits I'm putting out per turn.

I do agree that the loadout for the terminators is kind of futzy, though. Right now, I'm just trying to take a blend of stuff with a heavier than normal emphasis on AP1 and 2. I guess we will just sort of have to see...

The boyz are are the same price after termi upgrades. I also assumed you got the charge and gave the termies all the advantages.

I agree you need to play the shooting game against the orks. Therefore you may want to consider some combi flamers to soften them up.

Plant your termies...you have 2 choices both on the same objective or 1 squad each per 2 objectives. So if you plant 1 objective the skimmer player can claim 2 objectives end of game. If you plant 2 objectives the skimmer player gets to attack 1 terminator squad with his army and then move on to the next one.

The advantage is that you can escape at a ~90 degree angle. The difference in flatout and turbo boost is the difference in a full turn of movement so they always outdistance you 3 turns of your movement to their 2.

The big deal with speed is that they get to pick which fight you are fighting. Are you better in melee? Then they get to fight you in shooting. Are you better at shooting? They get to fight you in melee. If you want to avoid this you have to turtle. If you turtle they get to control the board and do not entirely loose their ability to choose their fights.

Actually skimmers get jink saves. This actually evens up AC and LC pretty well. The LC is still not bad but you really are not bringing them down that fast as you only have 5 LC. Keep in mind that BL/DL are S8 and your lauded LR are AV12 against them. Worse the new fireprism is S9 against AV12 LRs.

BTW are you going to be fighting necron warrior spam or french baker lists with this? LR are not happy against necrons.

Oh, yeah, it would be relatively boned by necron. There's no way shy of the rhino spam list that I can think to solve this. Well, actually, the 4x land raider list MIGHT do okay, thanks to all the twin-linking. Plus, tesla weapons aren't going to hurt the raiders (right?), and that's what our local necron player brings most of.

As for speed, I'm going to once again wave the strategic flag. Not all movement is created equal. Just because you can move a lot doesn't mean you're moving usefully. Plus, as mentioned, everything in my army moves 18" a turn, and has threat ranges even farther than that. This means I either get into range, or I completely dominate my opponent's movement, by forcing him to dance around pointlessly on the edges of the board in a strategic wasteland.

For hordes, I have thought of a couple of things. Firstly, I'd forgotten about the land raiders' twin-linked heavy bolters. Heavy bolters that, for a nominal fee, can add soul blaze. Also, hilariously, 30 points gets me enough for a pair of destroyer blades. After they dump off their cargo (or while doing it, for that matter), they get to spend the rest of the game dumping D6 after D6 of S5 attacks into stuff. Yeah, they're Ap-, but anything horde is going to have a terrible armor save. Plus, while it wouldn't work for orks, horde units don't have the best leadership, which means that all that tank shocking will probably lead to a unit or two just straight running off the board.

Another thing I might consider possibly doing is dropping abaddon for a CSM lord with a chainfist and a burning brand and the chosen into regular CSM. I would lose the sword of drachynen, along with a lot of beaty power, and a bunch of melta and lascannons, but I would gain an Ap3 torrent weapon and 205 points to play with. I don't know what I'd DO with those points, especially that fits what I'm going for, but it is a possibility.

You know, I could dump a terminator from the other squad and add in a sorcerer. I feel like an iron arm sorc in termie armor would be able to make up for some of the loss of abaddon. But... I don't know...

You are thinking of the skimmer (read eldar & D. eldar) as flying mech-vets. D. eldar have 36" Dark Lances which are actually good AV killers. Eldar have extremely tough skimmers (4+ cover saves for moving) with either good anti-infantry firepower (waveserpent) or good flexible fire power that happens to be good against LRs (fire prism; S9 AP1 Lance) both of these vehicles have weapons that fire in the 36"-60" range and want to move anyways. They also do not have to go for objectives as both dexs' are actually pretty good at bringing the pain to Sv2+/3+ low model count armies. This is really true of the new eldar dex.

This is why I liked your 30 termi list. It had a decent body count and if you got against a list you couldn't keep up with you could deepstrike and hope to deal a critical blow. How do you feel about cultists, just say 20 of them? You could then really take minimal troops and truly put your toyz before boyz theory to the test. Plus a unit of 10 cultists with Abadon in a LR will probably have about the same survivability and damage as one of the terminator squads.

I think instead of the heavy flamers and power fists you may want to load up on more combi-melta/flamer/plasma on the termies. Then if you get up against a fast list you can deepstrike the termies while advancing the land raider transports to pick them up. The enemy will either have to castle and gain no benefit from their speed or risk you shooting rear armour with either the land raiders or termies.

You may also want to think about using the maulerfiends as LR cover, they have daemon USR so cover is not going to be an advantage whenever nightfighting is not active.

I think increasing the number of termi comi-flamers could help but green tide will be a pain to kill. Not terrible though as you can just bolter them with your bolter components and then CC the remaining stuff. Nids are the ones that should worry your. They have the chaff to throw at you, the MC to kill the LRs (smash attacks are great for that), and even the Flyrant to kill abadon in CC. I cannot think of a good counter for them with this list without major changes.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Without Heldrakes none of the lists are competitive what so ever.

Get out of here.

The op specifically stated that he is trying to teach all CSM players that a CSM army can win without plaguemarines and heldrakes.

back on topic.

I vote for B with the 4 land raiders but I see that you updated it for only 2 land raiders.

Although you are not concerned with hordes, I find that Chosen with 4 flamers and a lascannon provides great anti horde and a small AV opportunity.

I have been struggling to make a competitive Abaddon+Chosen army but I hope you perform well.

You claim the Landraider list would not have trouble against fliers, but the new Eldar Crimson Hunter or even the Wraithfighter would f&%k you up 4 strength 8 Ap 2 shots 2 of which have lance. Just saying sorry.

So? 2 S8 Ap2 lance hits only kill a single raider 1 in 9 times, and two hits per rounds of shooting is far from guaranteed. In fact the land raider is just about as likely to kill the flier as the flier to kill the raider.

I'm open to the idea of flamer chosen, but I don't know how necessary that will be. Also, there is that nagging option to swap out abaddon, which in this case would be for a MoS Lord and some sonic weapons.

For skimmers, I really don't think TLLCs are insufficient to handle venoms and if elder are attacking with shuriken weapons, that means they're close by and on foot (read murdered the next turn by terminators).

Plus, as you note, the termies can always deepstrike.

For MC spam, it does deliver into my temptation to run a sorcerer...

I do feel like there's a viable alternative to abaddon in the LR lists, I just don't know what.

If not abaddon, then try termi lord with mos to let him join mos termi and to get noise marine.

Actually a crimson hunter with exarch has a 31% chance to explode a landraider (BS5 and gets to reroll the penetrating roll). I agree though that that is not the real danger. The real danger are waveserpent mounted fire dragons or wraithguard. Both of those have a 56% chance to explode a LR. This goes up to 74% with prescience or worse 93% if doom (no prescience) is used. I'm not saying the battle is over before it starts but I want you to be aware that if you allow eldar within 12" of a LR there is a good chance it is dead.

Note that in melee it will take you 2 turns to kill a wraithguard 5 man unit.

I am not as familiar with the D eldar dex but they seem to spam dark lances hard and having rapid fire 24" poison guns.

I am much more familiar with eldar. The same eldar who bring fire dragons and wraithguard to pop tanks and have pseudo rending weapons everywhere in the dex. A basic guardian squad (90 pts) will average 2.5 dead terminators in a single round of shooting. A unit actually meant to kill terminators (wraithguard with wraithscythes) will average closer to 8 terminators dead in a single shooting phase. You can annihilate a huge 2 squads having stayed grouped together and then get to experience further return fire. This maneuverability is not force concentration shenanigans it is getting to chose who fights who and when/how that fight happens.

I think you need to make sure that your termies all have combi-plasma or melta (3 plasma and 2 melta per squad perhaps). You could drop the PFs to help recoup points. The PFs will probably not be enough to make a major difference. This way when you can engage you can make the most of it even if you are not within charge range.

I think the chosen suggestion of 3x flamer seems like a decent idea as it will help you with hordes and you already had a do not come close sign named abadon. (not to mention the mauler fiends)

Abadon + combi plasma in quantity may be enough for most MC lists. You are still going to have an uphill fight against MC zilla lists and flying circus' especially.

 Ailaros wrote:

Oh, but why? That stupid autocannon costs as much as FIVE combi-weapons. It can shoot further away, and it can also shoot more than once, but seriously, five combi-plasmas. Hell, even five combi-meltas. I don't like autocannons to begin with and if perhaps they were cheaper, I might consider (as I like the model), but as-is...

And for the heavy flamer, why not just take a pair of combi-flamers? Why bother at all, actually? They're combi-BOLTERS after all, and it's not like, once they're in flamer range, they can't just chop things up in close combat either.

IMO the heavy flamer is pretty good because of the S5 and (perhaps more importantly) AP4, you get more wounds from the higher S and, depending on your opponent/target you may ignore saves, and it can shoot more than once. To me, that seems worth it (higher S helps against MEQs too and especially if you run against a plague marine/nurgle heavy CSM list)

(re: Marks)No. Not per se.

The problem I have with marking terminators is the problem I have with marking anything in the current codex - it's just not worth the cost. Anything I can do with the marks and banners (except for fearless from vengeance) I can do better by just spending those points on more dudes. I mean, for the price of giving 7 terminators the mark of tzeentch, I could just take an eighth terminator. Giving a15% durability boost against certain weapons doesn't seem as good as taking a 15% durability boost against all the other weapons, and getting an extra combi-weapon and close combat weapon to boot. With slaanesh and the FNP banner, it's even worse.

You may (indeed probably) have a point here, but I kinda look at it a bit differently -- instead of a 15% boost with MoT you get a 50%++ save vs a 33%++ save ... the math-hammer may prove me wrong and I am somewhat basing my thoughts around the FW HH-Betrayal book Cataphractii terminators (which get the 4++ save by trading Relentless for Slow & Purposeful), but from my (admittedly limited in 6th Ed) playing experience most of the weapons that get pointed at terminators seem to be AP2, so the 4++ seems like a better investment.

And when it comes to MoK, if you are playing your termies in a way that they often get a charge (and I'm thinking not, because of no LCs) it might be worth it to get the +1 S and +2 attacks on the charge... Especially if you're considering Abbadon you might think about mix & matching some marks for your termies.

Also, I'd rather just take a forgefiend in that case and double the dakka.

If your opponents are OK with FW, perhaps a Chaos Contemptor Dread?

I'd also ask if you've checked out the FW Horus Heresy "Book 1 -- Betrayal" -- w/ that you could bring a "young" Abbadon to make terminators (and vets) troops and keep the DS'ing terminators (termies don't automatically get DS), have access to 2+ 4++ terminators w/o worrying about marks and a bunch of other toys (can you tell I'm biased )

But I'm really interested to know how you turn out your list to see what lessons I can learn in terms of taking my own HH list against 'modern' codexes.... and hope my thoughts help.

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh, don't get me started. The 1850 point list I REALLY want to play is...

Huron

3x terminators - combi-meltas, one lightning claw

20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta

Because, seriously, over 100 dudes. It's a foot horde, except everybody gets bolters, power armor, and krak grenades.

Hahaha, this is basically what I play against all the time. Just tons of guys in power armor. It's pretty brutal.

List C looks pretty similar to Vanquishers + Melta Vets.

Personally, I like List A... I've wondered what 30 infiltrating Stormtroopers would accomplish. Probably 30 dead Stormtroopers. But if they were Terminators!

Kavalion wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh, don't get me started. The 1850 point list I REALLY want to play is...

Huron

3x terminators - combi-meltas, one lightning claw

20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta

Because, seriously, over 100 dudes. It's a foot horde, except everybody gets bolters, power armor, and krak grenades.

Hahaha, this is basically what I play against all the time. Just tons of guys in power armor. It's pretty brutal.

List C looks pretty similar to Vanquishers + Melta Vets.

Personally, I like List A... I've wondered what 30 infiltrating Stormtroopers would accomplish. Probably 30 dead Stormtroopers. But if they were Terminators!

I would go with something like this but trading some of the units in for raptors to get the number of troops down to 80-90. After all 100 marines are hard to fit on a table. There may also be some other advantages to it: less carry cases to transport it that sort of thing.

ansacs wrote:How do you feel about cultists, just say 20 of them? You could then really take minimal troops and truly put your toyz before boyz theory to the test.

Challenge accepted.

Here's a rework of B - The Landraidering

Abaddon
Sorcerer - terminator armor, lvl 3 psyker, burning brand

Terminators (4) - champ with combi-melta, powerfist, 3x combi-meltas
Terminators (4) - champ with combi-melta, powerfist, 3x combi-meltas

Cultists (10) - champ with shotgun
Cultists (10) - champ with shotgun

Land Raider - destroyer blades, dozer blades
Land Raider - destroyer blades, dozer blades
Land Raider - destroyer blades, dozer blades
Land Raider - destroyer blades, dozer blades

For 1850 points.

Horde is handled by 4D6 S5 hits per turn of ramming from the destroyer blades, plus a burning brand, plus terminators, plus abaddon. Vehicles are handled by 8 TLLCs, and 8 combi-meltas, and abaddon, and more ramming land raiders, and possibly the sorcerer, depending on powers. Monstrous creatures are handled by a super-force-weapon sorcerer, and abaddon, and all the terminators, and the land raiders, Plus, unlike the previous incarnation of this list, I stand a serious chance of having an invisible land raider, so there's that.

As for fastest, one could mention that I have to make 20 cultists, and that's true, but I can certainly sub in guardsmen until I can get some cheap, cheap cultists from DV.

I love it. You can even get the whole lot for 290 usd on ebay as long as you are okay with stripping paint. (the cultists are 7 usd before shipping)

You are an entirely AV14 army and the abadon+cultist squad is pretty much a terminator squad in and of itself. Not to mention deployment would take ~1-2 min as you just plop down 4 LRs.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Without Heldrakes none of the lists are competitive what so ever.

You could try 3 Maulerfiends and 3 Helldrakes. We have a player here who fields this kind of list trying to win our RTTs (two times) but he didn't.

Well, abaddon wouldn't be able to ride with the cultists, though. Welcome to CSM, I guess...

I do kind of like the "by the way, I'm getting first blood" thing of the all-raider list. I don't know if I'm 100% on board with losing all those meltaguns, but maybe that's a factor of not really getting what I can accomplish with the sorcerer I'm spending the points on instead.

Or... actually... I'm only using 2 of my HS slots... Perhaps...


Abaddon

Terminators (4) - champ with combi-melta, powerfist, 3x combi-meltas,
Terminators (5) - champ with combi-melta, powerfist, 2x combi-meltas, heavy flamer, power fist, chainfist

Cultists (10)
Cultists (10)

Land Raider - destroyer blades, dozer blades
Land Raider - destroyer blades, dozer blades
Land Raider - destroyer blades, dozer blades
Land Raider - destroyer blades, dozer blades
Predator - TLLC, sponson lascannons

I add in an AV13 "weakness" but I gain even more alpha strike power.

Why can abadon not deploy with a cultists squad?

I think the second list is weaker against MC but stronger against everything else.