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 skoffs wrote:
One wound wouldn't be unreasonable, if it meant reducing the price, but the models are a little huge to single wound, I think...

The Models were still fairly large in the Oldcron days and had 1 wound.

 King Pariah wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
One wound wouldn't be unreasonable, if it meant reducing the price, but the models are a little huge to single wound, I think...

The Models were still fairly large in the Oldcron days and had 1 wound.

And now they're much bigger so 2 wounds is justified imo.

I think drop the Shifter is good, pricing wise I would guess 30 ppm and 20 for the shifter but that could be rubbish.

In response to the Pariahs, TP and LG I guess you're right. They need to be pricier though by how much and with what rules/gear I honestly don't know

My opinion for balancing wraiths changes them a bit.

2 Options:

1) Either make them 4++ or remove 1 wound. Having them be resilient is fine, so I'm ok with them keeping the 3++, but saying "well they're vulnerable to instant death" doesn't really cut it for me given everything else they can do. Something that moves that fast, and hits that hard, should not be able to just make a 3++ 2W wall in front of the rest of the army for as cheaply as they do.

2) Don't change their stats, slightly increase their price, but make them have to roll for movement on a 2d6 with no run option (they're constantly shifting through the different dimensions available to them, so whatever propulsion they're using bleeds some of the kinetic energy they've got off into those dimensions), double 1's they phase into the ground/disappear and go into ongoing reserves. To counteract this, they can deep strike, but scatter on just 1d6 to represent them coming up from the ground. This is an off the cuff idea, but maybe it might work?

^
That second idea wouldn't be so bad if there was a way for them to be able to assault after deep strike. Otherwise, as soon as you roll snake eyes, they're effectively useless for two turns. Having that big of a handicap would render them untakeable. If it were only one turn of inactivity, able to come back the next turn and be of use again, well, that's not so bad.

Ignore this.

Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.

Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.

Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.

Sort of seconded. The whole point of pariahs (oldcron) was to screw around with leadership. and warscythes but that's a roll taken up by Lychguard (which is why in my suggested profile, I didn't give them warscythes). Without leadership shenanigans Pariahs are not pariahs and as an upgrade, they're really not all that different from a Tomb Spyder with their gloom prisms.

If Pariahs aren't able to screw around with opponents in a manner related to their Leadership stat as standard, I wouldn't bother calling them pariahs.

 King Pariah wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.

Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.

Sort of seconded. The whole point of pariahs (oldcron) was to screw around with leadership. and warscythes but that's a roll taken up by Lychguard (which is why in my suggested profile, I didn't give them warscythes). Without leadership shenanigans Pariahs are not pariahs and as an upgrade, they're really not all that different from a Tomb Spyder with their gloom prisms.

If Pariahs aren't able to screw around with opponents in a manner related to their Leadership stat as standard, I wouldn't bother calling them pariahs.

Thinking about it, perhaps we really should change what Pariahs are.
Previously the Old-Cron Pariahs were elite tough guys who could rip a tank open and screw with psykers.
Well, now Lychguard and Praetorians have taken over the role for that first part.
Perhaps Pariahs no longer need to be so killy.
Perhaps Pariahs should fill more of a tactical role, something like a disruption squad, there to screw with leadership and psykers, not actually doing the killing themselves, but forcing things to happen (morale checks, pinning tests, reducing weapon skills, etc. Psychological warfare, basically) which will allow the other killy unit in the army to roll up and do the dirty work eaiser.

 skoffs wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.

Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.

Sort of seconded. The whole point of pariahs (oldcron) was to screw around with leadership. and warscythes but that's a roll taken up by Lychguard (which is why in my suggested profile, I didn't give them warscythes). Without leadership shenanigans Pariahs are not pariahs and as an upgrade, they're really not all that different from a Tomb Spyder with their gloom prisms.

If Pariahs aren't able to screw around with opponents in a manner related to their Leadership stat as standard, I wouldn't bother calling them pariahs.

Thinking about it, perhaps we really should change what Pariahs are.
Previously the Old-Cron Pariahs were elite tough guys who could rip a tank open and screw with psykers.
Well, now Lychguard and Praetorians have taken over the role for that first part.
Perhaps Pariahs no longer need to be so killy.
Perhaps Pariahs should fill more of a tactical role, something like a disruption squad, there to screw with leadership and psykers, not actually doing the killing themselves, but forcing things to happen (morale checks, pinning tests, reducing weapon skills, etc. Psychological warfare, basically) which will allow the other killy unit in the army to roll up and do the dirty work eaiser.

A piece of wargear could be something along the lines of "space-time destabilizer - all units within 6" of the Pariah have their WS and I reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1." or some such thing.

 McNinja wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.

Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.

Sort of seconded. The whole point of pariahs (oldcron) was to screw around with leadership. and warscythes but that's a roll taken up by Lychguard (which is why in my suggested profile, I didn't give them warscythes). Without leadership shenanigans Pariahs are not pariahs and as an upgrade, they're really not all that different from a Tomb Spyder with their gloom prisms.

If Pariahs aren't able to screw around with opponents in a manner related to their Leadership stat as standard, I wouldn't bother calling them pariahs.

Thinking about it, perhaps we really should change what Pariahs are.
Previously the Old-Cron Pariahs were elite tough guys who could rip a tank open and screw with psykers.
Well, now Lychguard and Praetorians have taken over the role for that first part.
Perhaps Pariahs no longer need to be so killy.
Perhaps Pariahs should fill more of a tactical role, something like a disruption squad, there to screw with leadership and psykers, not actually doing the killing themselves, but forcing things to happen (morale checks, pinning tests, reducing weapon skills, etc. Psychological warfare, basically) which will allow the other killy unit in the army to roll up and do the dirty work eaiser.

A piece of wargear could be something along the lines of "space-time destabilizer - all units within 6" of the Pariah have their WS and I reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1." or some such thing.

Oh that's good actually. But maybe we'll need to tweak the statlines/wargear too if we're putting them in support because if we give them nasty weapons then they lose the feel of a support unit, same with powerful stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deathmagiks wrote:
My opinion for balancing wraiths changes them a bit.

2 Options:

1) Either make them 4++ or remove 1 wound. Having them be resilient is fine, so I'm ok with them keeping the 3++, but saying "well they're vulnerable to instant death" doesn't really cut it for me given everything else they can do. Something that moves that fast, and hits that hard, should not be able to just make a 3++ 2W wall in front of the rest of the army for as cheaply as they do.

2) Don't change their stats, slightly increase their price, but make them have to roll for movement on a 2d6 with no run option (they're constantly shifting through the different dimensions available to them, so whatever propulsion they're using bleeds some of the kinetic energy they've got off into those dimensions), double 1's they phase into the ground/disappear and go into ongoing reserves. To counteract this, they can deep strike, but scatter on just 1d6 to represent them coming up from the ground. This is an off the cuff idea, but maybe it might work?

I agree about point 2. Makes them less autotakes but they would need assault after DS or they're out of the game for a good while. Very fluffy as well they'd probably be 40 or 45 pts if we ran that though because in a way they get MORE maneuvrable

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

deathmagiks wrote:
My opinion for balancing wraiths changes them a bit.

2 Options:

1) Either make them 4++ or remove 1 wound. Having them be resilient is fine, so I'm ok with them keeping the 3++, but saying "well they're vulnerable to instant death" doesn't really cut it for me given everything else they can do. Something that moves that fast, and hits that hard, should not be able to just make a 3++ 2W wall in front of the rest of the army for as cheaply as they do.

2) Don't change their stats, slightly increase their price, but make them have to roll for movement on a 2d6 with no run option (they're constantly shifting through the different dimensions available to them, so whatever propulsion they're using bleeds some of the kinetic energy they've got off into those dimensions), double 1's they phase into the ground/disappear and go into ongoing reserves. To counteract this, they can deep strike, but scatter on just 1d6 to represent them coming up from the ground. This is an off the cuff idea, but maybe it might work?

I agree about point 2. Makes them less autotakes but they would need assault after DS or they're out of the game for a good while. Very fluffy as well they'd probably be 40 or 45 pts if we ran that though because in a way they get MORE maneuvrable

The only problem with that is the fact that now they're incredibly unreliable now. Chance to move only three inches, and if you roll incredibad you are out of the game for turn? No thanks. That would take them from auto-takes to never-takes. Especially for 45 points.

If you change it to 30 ppm, remove the phase shifter, then add the option to buy it for 15 points, that works. You're still buying it for 1/3 of the cost.

Hmm, I like some of the suggestions about Pariahs, already have new rules/fluff/options figured out.

Bit of a pain to post them from my iPod, though, so when I get home (about 6-7 hours hopefully) I'll post them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still deciding on Points costs.


Canoptek Pariahs...(150-175?)pts

Canoptek Pariahs stand silent, guarding the halls of Necron tomb complexes. To an onlooker in their inert state, they seem little more than statues, works of art, symbolically guarding the depths of the tomb, similar to how a king of old would line his halls with suits of armour. These Pariahs are more than statues, however, and they are more than symbolic guardians.
Unlike other guards, however, Pariahs do not seek to engage their foe in combat. Instead they stand some distance from their foe, allowing the arcane technology built into their sturdy frame to interrupt and disturb their opponent while the other Canoptek inhabitants of the tomb engage the foe.
Once their masters waken, Pariahs are often used upon the field of battle to lessen the effectiveness of their foes, either forcing opponents to retread, messing with the minds or slowing and disrupting the flow of space-time in their vicinity.
It is said that the form of these silent wardens is based on that of the Necrontyr themselves, during the time of flesh, but only the Necrons themselves or maybe even the books of the Black Library hold the answer, and neither will reveals their secrets easily…

WS 3
BS 3
S 5
T 5
W 1
I 2
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 3+

Composition: 5 Canoptek Pariahs
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Ornate Staff, Gloom Projector
Special Rules: Fearless, Relentless
Options:
May include up to 5 additional Canoptek Pariahs for...(30-35?)pts/ model
Up to 5 models may replace their Ornate Staff with a Warstave...(10-15?)pts
For every five modles in the unit, 1 may replace their Ornate Staff with a Staff of Light...(15-20?)pts
1 model may replace their Gloom Projector with:
Hallucinogen Rift...(15?)pts
Space-Time Destabiliser...(25-30?)pts


Ornate Staff:
Range: -, Str User, AP -, Melee, Two-handed, Master-crafted

Warstave:
2 profiles
Range: -, Str User, AP 4, Melee, Two-handed, Unwieldy, Gauss (not a typo, I mean it!)
Range: 12", Str 5, AP 4, Heavy 1, Gauss

Gloom Projector:
Enemy units with a model within 12” have -1 Ld
In addition, any psykers within 6" must pass a leadership test else they have -2 WS (to a minimum of 1)
A model armed with a Gloom Projector has Adamantine Will

Hallucinogen Rift:
Enemy units with a model within 12” must pass a morale check else they fall back
In addition, any enemy units with a model within 6” must take a pinning test.
A model armed with a Hallucinogen Rift has Fear

Space-Time Destabiliser:
Enemy units with a model within 12” are treated as being in difficult terrain.
In addition, any enemy model within 6” must pass a strength test else has -1 WS, to a minimum of 1.
A model armed with a Space-Time Destabiliser has a 6+ invulnerable save



Still finalising the fluff for the wargear, I still have the basic idea, though.

The destabiliser is likely OP imo. And despite being a support unit and a canoptek unit they are worse in CC than a warrior with WS3? Huh? Then again scarabs and spyders have low WS so maybe. The staves are good but gauss cc seems odd but if it fits then ok. The warstaves are almost autotakes as well for 10pts they are so much better than the base weapon in cc and at range. I'd make the warstave limited to 1 per 5 men, same with SoL, and make the unit 5 basic to keep in line with most units. I do like the fluff though.

Eh, I still think the Warstave should be able to be taken by everyone... Maybe I should increase the price to 15pts?

Would up to 5 models can replace their ornate staff with a Warstave be good enough?

Relentless looks like it's pointless on them

I know, I only left it there as there was talk about giving all Canoptek units Relentless.

The only use I can think of it firing weapon emplacements, not that you'd want to do that with a BS 3 model in an army of BS 4

You could make the stave unwieldy and the weapon Heavy. theres a use for relentless and makes the weapon weaker in cc. Possibly drop gauss too, 10pts 3 per unit

Eh, I still want to keep Gauss. Once I finish making the fluff behind the weapon look all pretty and post it it will make more sense...

But I CAN do Unwieldy + Heavy!

Well good! Anyway.... Are we gonna mess with the fluff of the army or leave it, I know someone wrote an alternative earlier

King Pariah wrote the alternative fluff.

I thought it was cool, but eh, I kinda want to keep the current fluff...

Maybe a compromise? Maybe a few dynasties got corrupted by the C'Tan to believe that they need to collect C'Tan shards to rebuild the C'Tan, thinking the Eldar destroyed them.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
King Pariah wrote the alternative fluff.

I thought it was cool, but eh, I kinda want to keep the current fluff...

Maybe a compromise? Maybe a few dynasties got corrupted by the C'Tan to believe that they need to collect C'Tan shards to rebuild the C'Tan, thinking the Eldar destroyed them.

Clever we'll discuss it with others if they want to chip in but I like that

*shrugs* My alternate fluff was written as a compromise between those who like the newcron fluff and those who like the oldcron fluff.

There's nothing saying both fluffs can't exist concurrently.
As in, everyone is awake/free from the C'tan, but there are certain sects that are malfunctioning / still programed to operate as they did before.
(C'tan Cults)

 skoffs wrote:
There's nothing saying both fluffs can't exist concurrently.
As in, everyone is awake/free from the C'tan, but there are certain sects that are malfunctioning / still programed to operate as they did before.
(C'tan Cults)

This. Great idea I like it well, we're just about there now

Hi, this is an awesome project, and I'm pretty impressed at the work going in to keeping it from being rediculous.

A couple thoughts, sorry if I'm throwing new ideas in late and I apologise I've missed something;

I like the concept for the canoptek pariahs. definitely like the new fluff better than the old. I think "ornate staff' is a silly and overly discriptive name though, it seems like something from a badly translated 80's computer RPG. How about "guardian staff" or "rod of disruption"... Something with *feeling.*

Monolith; Personally, rather than a better partical whip, I'd rather the flux arcs had skyfire/interceptor (giving necrons dedicated anti-air without having to spam scythes and re-inforcing its status as a moving fortification.). I'd also like to give the Eternity Gate a second d6 for range- so it threatens anyone in charge range rather than threatening virtually no-one.
I am confused why the Monolith is in the Dedicated Transport section as nothing lists it as a transport. It also has no "capacity." (though, letting units board to reserves or ongoing reserves would be interesting.)

I'd like to see a canoptek *something* as a troop choice. One of the things that the fluff talks about is how the canopteks protect the Tombs while all the Necrons sleep. This seems like an interesting army concept, but it's currently not available. I'd probably go with the Scarabs as troops- which also increases the ability to horde them... but they'd probably need something of a power downgrade for that. An alternative, since there currently isn't a Canoptek HQ and I have a hard time imagining one, a (generic) Cryptek wargear/special rule option that makes scarabs Troop choices (heh; call it "Canoptek Priest") .

Anyway, good stuff.

I only called it 'ornate staff' as I couldn't come up with anything better at the time.
I like 'Guardian Staff, though .

Random mostly-fluff into crunch thought; Should you be able to purchase two Phaerons? Should it have some purchase limit? Maybe one per army, one per detachment, something? It just seems weird to me that you could (conceivably) have 2 phaerons in a (relatively) low point game.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I only called it 'ornate staff' as I couldn't come up with anything better at the time.
I like 'Guardian Staff, though .

That's fair. I learned to just roulette through words until I found a combination that worked. Something similar to what pages like this do;
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/generate.php?Genname=magicitem

Had to modify them, but off a list of 25 I got;
Living Sceptre (sounds necron-y)
Baton of Lightning (sounds like a CC weapon with the Tesla special rule)
Soldiers' Sceptre
Doomed Rod (did someone say something about a C’tan cult?)
Sacred Stave
Priests’ Sceptre (something for a Cryptek?... better than Galstaff's "staff of light")
Ancestral Rod (ok, that could be inappropriate)

Baton of lightning makes me think of an electric marching band

silentone2k wrote:
Hi, this is an awesome project, and I'm pretty impressed at the work going in to keeping it from being rediculous.

A couple thoughts, sorry if I'm throwing new ideas in late and I apologise I've missed something;

I like the concept for the canoptek pariahs. definitely like the new fluff better than the old. I think "ornate staff' is a silly and overly discriptive name though, it seems like something from a badly translated 80's computer RPG. How about "guardian staff" or "rod of disruption"... Something with *feeling.*

Monolith; Personally, rather than a better partical whip, I'd rather the flux arcs had skyfire/interceptor (giving necrons dedicated anti-air without having to spam scythes and re-inforcing its status as a moving fortification.). I'd also like to give the Eternity Gate a second d6 for range- so it threatens anyone in charge range rather than threatening virtually no-one.
I am confused why the Monolith is in the Dedicated Transport section as nothing lists it as a transport. It also has no "capacity." (though, letting units board to reserves or ongoing reserves would be interesting.)

I'd like to see a canoptek *something* as a troop choice. One of the things that the fluff talks about is how the canopteks protect the Tombs while all the Necrons sleep. This seems like an interesting army concept, but it's currently not available. I'd probably go with the Scarabs as troops- which also increases the ability to horde them... but they'd probably need something of a power downgrade for that. An alternative, since there currently isn't a Canoptek HQ and I have a hard time imagining one, a (generic) Cryptek wargear/special rule option that makes scarabs Troop choices (heh; call it "Canoptek Priest") .

Anyway, good stuff.

Thanks glad to know we're on the right track after all this work.

Pariah weapon name suggestions are decent, I'm not sure on my favourite. I like the idea of Canoptek troops if the Pariahs are weak enough they could do it. Canoptek HQ... I don't think so because the Canopteks are controlled by the mater programme and have no sentience.
Monolith is HS not DT. I like the idea on the flux arcs too, makes sense tbh, but if we do that we can't fiddle with the Gate as then it becomes OP

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

Thanks glad to know we're on the right track after all this work.

Pariah weapon name suggestions are decent, I'm not sure on my favourite. I like the idea of Canoptek troops if the Pariahs are weak enough they could do it. Canoptek HQ... I don't think so because the Canopteks are controlled by the mater programme and have no sentience.
Monolith is HS not DT. I like the idea on the flux arcs too, makes sense tbh, but if we do that we can't fiddle with the Gate as then it becomes OP

You've exactly hit why I'm having trouble trying to imagine a Canoptek HQ. It would have to be an expression of that AI somehow, a link. Fluffily something like the way Tyranids are simply expressions of the hive mind, and they have broodlords and the like, without actually meandering into that whole synapse brand of crazy. Anyway, probably thinking too hard about something no one else cares about.

Monolith; I expected the monolith to be HS, but the draft I saw it looked like it was in with the DTs, thus my puzzlement. Actually, it looks like the problem is an incorrect heading...
You're right about the OP, my point is just that, of all the things to fiddle with, the whip seems the least important.



Putting the two topics together like that, gave me a stupid idea. I'll share, behind a spoiler, and fully expect it to get ignored (hopefully not flamed). But it amused me;