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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

Had fun game with my standard shooty ignor cover noise marine list vs 2 wraith knights (one was a proxy but close enough and height didn't matter anyway). Suffice it to say, 5 man marine squads are not holding up well vs the wraith knight. Tried to ignore them and just gun down the elder troops and was marginally successful. However by turn 2 the depleted squads from suncannon fire were getting mopped up by assaults. By turn 5 I basically lost the entire gunline to assaults. I didn't really do much in assault and I think I got about 3 wounds total out of the combined 12 wounds those things have with crack grenade hits and he killed down 4 squads of noise marines and was locked in with my oblits while another killed off my 2nd squad of oblits by turn 6 (go go smash)

Ignoring one is probably fine (especially as the last game the Eldar player took the melee options). Ignoring 2 of those things with suncannons on both doesn't work very well (even with squads spread out in ruins mostly due to assaults). Now I need to come up with some alternative strats. What all do you guys think? Maybe some sort of giant zombie cultist roadblock? (but then I'm probably not going to be using noise marines anymore with that... and ws with tons of TL dakka will probably melt them anyway)

Not seeing much in our codex that's super good vs MC's and is in need of some advice.

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There's a fair few high strength sub-AP3 Weapons in the codex, such as Blastmasters and Lascannons. Once you negate the Wraithknight's armour, it's only got a 5++ protecting it from harm. It's not quite on Riptide-levels in this regard.

I think the Nurgle powers are really good for dealing with them. Most of the damage-y ones are Poisoned, and making the Wraithknight -1 Toughness or stopping it from running is a pretty nice bonus.

I think even Helldrakes may help. They may only be wounding on 5s with Vector Strike, but this would negate the armour and, lets face it, you're taking Helldrakes anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 14:01:18


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Also the invulnerable option isn't really worth the points on it so at best its getting a area terrain cover save. Lascannons and noise marines should have a decent chance of putting some wounds on it.

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While it sounds like two Wraithknights with Suncannons caused you some trouble by shooting up your gunline, do you think it was 600 points worth of trouble?

   
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I think another reason I was kind of disappointed post game was that I wasted a lot of time trying to frag his 2+ignore pen wave serpents with my firepower. I have 6 oblits and 5 blast masters in the list and mostly kept trying to kill the damn transports (so my hel turkey can flame the tasty insides next turns). I think if I focused down one WK a turn, I would have probably done better.

Assuming average rolls, I'd probably get 4 wounds a turn (lascannons (hits on 3's and wounds on 3's) + blast masters still needing 4's to wound and usually a 4+ ruins save for the wraith knight vs the lascannons anyway) And probably can kill one by turn 2 (shooting plasma cannons by this point) But feels like such a waste of firepower. Also would still probably see a squad or two eaten in assault and the return fire from the elder will be plenty mean too. The WK's are only 600 points, still got another ton of bs 4 shooting (mostly twin linked and rending) to deal with.

Think Abbadon can take them?

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A Hades AC or Ectoplasma Forgefiend could kill it. A Heldrake could kill it. Blastmaster Noise Marines could kill it. A bunch of Lascannons could kill it. A Sorcerer with a Force weapon could kill it.

Got forbid any of those thing have prescience.
   
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 Oaka wrote:
While it sounds like two Wraithknights with Suncannons caused you some trouble by shooting up your gunline, do you think it was 600 points worth of trouble?


those 600 points ate up 5 squads of bastmaster marines (so 625 points of scoring) + 237 oblits + 158 (for I had one guy still in close combat with it when game ended) of oblits. .... so ya. 1020 points losses vs 600 points of assault sun cannons. (I did eat some fire from his other lances/shiruken/lasers so i'ts not exactly 1020 all credited to the wk's but I'd say probably 75% goes to them. So at least 765 points back? ish?

Now, I did blow up quite a bit of his back row of course too. I don't know all the eldar points lists but I'm assuming I killed off another 400 points of his stuff from my shooting (2 ws eventually died from hull points and one had one hull point left (I was rolling terribly for blast master pen rolls) and some misc number of dire avengers which I understand are quite cheap now.) Heldrakes got me his warlord on some failed 4++ invul but it was a small morale victory for me.

A Hades AC or Ectoplasma Forgefiend could kill it. A Heldrake could kill it. Blastmaster Noise Marines could kill it. A bunch of Lascannons could kill it. A Sorcerer with a Force weapon could kill it.

Got forbid any of those thing have prescience.


Heldrake was busy trying to kill his mech spam. I really really hate wave serpents (especially when I keep rolling 1's and 2's for hits) and I also lost a heldrake to the crimson thing. Other heldrake at least killed the crimson hunter later on but got that TL laser locked to death by the remainder of eldar shooting. Took him down by hull points and I couldn't get a IWND recovery to save my backside. I didn't have points to spare for daemon allies
Btw, I had plenty of blastmasters (5 of them) but you take your pick, shoot the thing that still needs 4's to wound or shoot at his shooty elf tanks? Besides, igoring the one worked before but 2 of them seem to become a major problem.

I didn't really ever try the hades AC as I never had the model. Making me think twice on it now. Might have to try a daemon prescience list with that thing but I love the oblits so much and AV12 is kind of easy to kill around here. Lots of high str weapons in my local meta.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/09 14:29:08


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 sudojoe wrote:

Think Abbadon can take them?

Abaddon is da MAN. If you need something killed, then he will kill it.

With the amount of shooting eldar has, smaller elite armies (i.e. cult troops) will have problems against eldar. Moreover, T8 is harder to kill than most people realize. It'll take all your high-powered firepower just to hurt it so you need to make the decision: who is the bigger priority, the WK's or guys (potentially scoring) in wave serpents? That's the type of dilemma the WK's produce. If you really focus all your firepower onto the WK's you might be able to kill 1 in 1 turn, but even that is doubtful (with cover, you need 27 S8 missile shots to kill T8 6W!). Then again, you need about 13.5 S8 missiles to down a WS with cover so either ways, you're going to be in a world of hurt.



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a Daemon Prince would destroy the thing in CC - provided you could get there and kill it in one go.

Otherwise, that S10 might hurt

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The DP's not going to be able to do that in 1 go because he's going to have to Smash attack to really hurt the WK (even if he does have the Black Mace). It's not impossible, but it is highly improbable unless you first weaken with shooting.

One thing about taking Abaddon or a DP is that they will change the dynamics of your list. You're talking about adding a 250-350 pt unit into your army and if you still want to run noise marines, you still need a 2nd HQ (Slaanesh lord) in your list. Something's got to give, which would be some of your shooting.



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 jy2 wrote:
The DP's not going to be able to do that in 1 go because he's going to have to Smash attack to really hurt the WK (even if he does have the Black Mace). It's not impossible, but it is highly improbable unless you first weaken with shooting.

One thing about taking Abaddon or a DP is that they will change the dynamics of your list. You're talking about adding a 250-350 pt unit into your army and if you still want to run noise marines, you still need a 2nd HQ (Slaanesh lord) in your list. Something's got to give, which would be some of your shooting.



Why does he need to smash? I was under the impression that the BM always wounded on 2s.

If the DP charges w/ BM vs Wraithknight w/o Invuln 9.5 Attacks---> 6.3 recurring hits-------> roughly 5.3 wounds
If the DP charges w/ BM vs Wraithknight w/ Invuln 9.5 Attacks---> 6.3 recurring hits-------> roughly 5.3 wounds---------> 3.6 FInal Wounds

Since the Invuln is uncommon, as it is overpriced and cover is easy, it is very conceivable that a BM DP could take a WK in one turn, provided the DK had taken a wound or so from shooting.

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Missile launchers, the WK is only 3+.


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 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
 jy2 wrote:
The DP's not going to be able to do that in 1 go because he's going to have to Smash attack to really hurt the WK (even if he does have the Black Mace). It's not impossible, but it is highly improbable unless you first weaken with shooting.

One thing about taking Abaddon or a DP is that they will change the dynamics of your list. You're talking about adding a 250-350 pt unit into your army and if you still want to run noise marines, you still need a 2nd HQ (Slaanesh lord) in your list. Something's got to give, which would be some of your shooting.



Why does he need to smash? I was under the impression that the BM always wounded on 2s.

If the DP charges w/ BM vs Wraithknight w/o Invuln 9.5 Attacks---> 6.3 recurring hits-------> roughly 5.3 wounds
If the DP charges w/ BM vs Wraithknight w/ Invuln 9.5 Attacks---> 6.3 recurring hits-------> roughly 5.3 wounds---------> 3.6 FInal Wounds

Since the Invuln is uncommon, as it is overpriced and cover is easy, it is very conceivable that a BM DP could take a WK in one turn, provided the DK had taken a wound or so from shooting.

Does the Black Mace have Fleshbane? If so, then the DP would certainly be more effective. But still, the problem remains that you would seriously have to alter your list in order to fit him into the army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 buddha wrote:
Missile launchers, the WK is only 3+.


It only takes 27 missiles to kill a healthy WK in cover.

So with 6 oblits (lascannons) and 5 blastermasters....that ain't going to happen, not even with 2 turns of shooting (especially considering oblits can't fire their lascannons 2 turns in a row).


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 15:56:04



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It would be helpful on the size of armies being played, the amount of terrain on the table and the mission objective would be helpful to know before myself in giving advice.

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 McNinja wrote:
A Hades AC or Ectoplasma Forgefiend could kill it. A Heldrake could kill it. Blastmaster Noise Marines could kill it. A bunch of Lascannons could kill it. A Sorcerer with a Force weapon could kill it.

Got forbid any of those thing have prescience.

Well, they could eat them. But in the meanwhile the rest of the Eldar army is going for your throat.

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Something that makes a good counter assault unit is invaluable. Abbadon is a good example of something that can rip one of those up to shreds.
What you want is something that can put pressure on the wraith knights and keep them on the defensive. If you can dictate their movement by providing a threat, your making him play your game.

I would personally go with daemon allies. A greater daemon can make a awesome beatstick. They are extremely durable in all my games. I lose the LoC about in 1/2 the games, and I've only lost a GUO once in about 12 games.
I've not ran the numbers yet, but I would expect a greater daemon can do a number on a wraith knight. Especially if it has psychic buffs like Invisibility or Iron Arm or Precognition.
Use that greater daemon to put pressure on the wraith knights. As an added bonus you get 1-2 cheap scoring units that are hard to shift from shooting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 16:23:15


 
   
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 Adam LongWalker wrote:
It would be helpful on the size of armies being played, the amount of terrain on the table and the mission objective would be helpful to know before myself in giving advice.


It was a 1550 game (he went over a little bit so we bumped it up 50 points, I ended up taking some random wargear on the slanesh lord that didn't do anything as point filler. Normally the game would be 5 noise marine squads with blastmasters and 3 oblits with nurgle, 3 oblits with random slanesh or no marks / veterans (or I'd come in at 1501 with double nurgle) This one was all nurgle oblits, and 2 heldrakes as a standard.

He had 2 wraith knights , a farseer, fire prism, some dire avengers in ws's and a crimson hunter. I think he had some swooping hawks but I killed them turn 1 so they didn't get to do anything.

He won the roll off and had me go first. There was turn one night fighting. Dawn of war deployment and crusade with 5 objectives, 2 in my deployment zone and 2 in his with one in middle ish. My strat was to basically shoot all of his stuff to death and hold my objectives to win so I was going after troops. Deployed 2 squads over near each objective with good LOS and one in the middle cause I didn't know where he'd be.

The Eldar shoved both WK in the middle and basically split off one each flank after crossing the middle. I couldn't kill the damn Wave serpents due to terrible pen rolls and 36' spotting distance so I couldn't focus down with all my fire as he hugged his back edge. I'd usually hit but rolling 1's and 2's for the blast masters. The oblits las cannons hit but he saved quite a few and nothing got past his 2+ take glances instead of pen's rule. I did lose an oblit to lance fire and had 2 squads of noise marines reduced to 2 people from all the massed str 5/6 rending TL things.

By turn 2 he was basically assaulting as he ran turn 1 with the WK's. Turn 2 shot a bit with the sun cannons and I think killed like 1-2 guys. Oblits got locked in by turn 4. At which time I lost all 5 noise marines and the lord who couldn't get past the T8 in assault. Krack greades did about 2-3 wounds I think over the course of several rounds of combat. He never got into multi-assault as my units were not that close to eachother but generally helps support fire.

We'll be bumping to 1850 in the future so I can actually take some random things that are expensive to help out. Maybe 3x oblits squads?
Of course he plans to take even more wave serpents so ya.... will be interesting...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/09 23:05:01


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I think Chaos got the shaft when it comes to dealing with high toughness MC's. A single Riptide is giving me a headache at 1500 points at the moment.

Shooting wise I don't think we have a whole lot to deal with the WK. My current train of thought is to use weight of fire in the form. However, bolters won't work (not enough will wound) so I'm thinking of trying autocannon havocs again. Lascannons are just kind of pricy in the codex.

I really think CSM is going to slowly evolve into a melee focused army as more and more codexes are updated to be more devastating in the shooting phase. We're gonna have to rely on Abaddon a lot lol. Just my .02.

 
   
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Take the murder blade on a Slaaneshi Lord on a mount...

Outflank with ten CSMs for wound soaking...

Dead WK on turn 3, his buddy will be dead on turn 4, if he's less than 27" away

 
   
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He is a prime example of why Oblits aren't always the perfect choice.
They lack the firepower density of predators or havocs.
   
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karandras15 wrote:
Take the murder blade on a Slaaneshi Lord on a mount...

Outflank with ten CSMs for wound soaking...

Dead WK on turn 3, his buddy will be dead on turn 4, if he's less than 27" away



Actually, a lucky overwatch shot would suck pretty bad in that case

 
   
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karandras15 wrote:
Take the murder blade on a Slaaneshi Lord on a mount...

Outflank with ten CSMs for wound soaking...

Dead WK on turn 3, his buddy will be dead on turn 4, if he's less than 27" away


The Murdersword isn't going to do anything, since the Wraithknight is not a character.

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To be fair to noise marines, they're not really good outside of their anti-light-infantry role. If you weren't already having problems with terminators or AV13+ or other monstrous creatures, it was only a matter of time before this hole in your killing power became obvious.

I agree with the idea that you probably need more serious killing power in general, like some lascannon predetors, or something. If you want a specific counter to monstrous creatures within the realm of slaanesh, you have a few options.

My favorite here would be a slaanesh lord with some sort of high-mobility option and a murder sword. You have an at-initiative powerfist that comes with instant death. Likewise, a slaanesh sorcerer with a force maul or axe wouldn't be too shabby.

That or just get yourself a heap of combi-plasma terminators. In a slaanesh loadout, they'd be faster than most eldar, and come for free with weapons that ignore their Sv in close combat, and come with terminator armor and FNP, which means you even get that extra save against their new rending. All of that wouldn't help you against the wraithknight, but a couple of powerfists wouldn't be bad and, even though you're only wounding on 5's, combi plasma is still going to bring a lot of hurt.



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 minigun762 wrote:
Nurgle spawn as tarpit and slow death by poison.


A Wraithknight is likely going to kill one of the spawn in close combat, before they even get to swing. Then, they only have a 1/3rd chance for poison.

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Ignore it, on a point for point basis just about everything else in the eldar dex hits harder and is less durable. The worst case scenario is focusing too much dakka on the knight, not killing it, and not reducing any eldar dakka through attrition. Better off killing another 270+ points of eldar before the knight.

If it gets close to plague zombies tarpit it. If you want to keep it away from an important location keep zombies nearby.

Allied nurgle deamons have poison. Plague bearers are too slow to catch one, but they can stay shrouded in cover and shoo one of just like cultists.

Allied deamonettes or seekers still wound it on a rend.

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 schadenfreude wrote:
Ignore it, on a point for point basis just about everything else in the eldar dex hits harder and is less durable. The worst case scenario is focusing too much dakka on the knight, not killing it, and not reducing any eldar dakka through attrition. Better off killing another 270+ points of eldar before the knight.

If it gets close to plague zombies tarpit it. If you want to keep it away from an important location keep zombies nearby.

Allied nurgle deamons have poison. Plague bearers are too slow to catch one, but they can stay shrouded in cover and shoo one of just like cultists.

Allied deamonettes or seekers still wound it on a rend.


ya that was my problem. I didn't have anything for tarpitting. I had a ton of shooting and basically it was a very elite army of noise marines MSU style. I tired to kill his troops but was much less successful vs these particular mech (partly due to dice and otherwise to the new wave serpent shields) I don't have much volume of fire but do have good quality cept his shields counter my quality. one wraith knight I've ignored to good success before but 2 is too much to ignore it seems.

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McNinja wrote:A Hades AC or Ectoplasma Forgefiend could kill it. A Heldrake could kill it. Blastmaster Noise Marines could kill it. A bunch of Lascannons could kill it. A Sorcerer with a Force weapon could kill it.

Got forbid any of those thing have prescience.


I think everyone is underestimating how powerful T8 is. Immunity to small arms fire, and even tank weapons will have a tough time. Heldrake is gonna have a problem with it, Blastmaster is only S8 and single shot at it, so you need to hit on 3+ AND wound on 4+ (which aren't great odds), and same with Lascannons. Sorcerer can't even touch him unless he takes a force lance, or axe, and even then it's more likely that the WK is just going to smoosh him.

I think everyone looks at the WK for its killing potential (which is limited for the cost), but it's also a big distraction your enemy can't much afford to ignore, and if he doesn't, it'll take all his shooting for a few turns

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