Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So currently this is a problem for me. I realize cannons are there and they're fantastic but you can only have a couple and generally not much else will effect say....a daemon prince.

My current problem is taking one of these things down. I'm guessing i could do it with poisoned wind globadiers after tying units into combat with it. However their leadership is very iffy and their range is poor. Luckily they can shoot into all combats but unfortunately it's randomized for every unit in said combat.

Cracks call would work on chariots but my problem still stands that lately with more multiple wound models with high toughness and high initiative it's becoming a bit harder for skaven to take them down. Armies like warriors of chaos don't really fall as easy to cracks call and toughness tests won't do too much either with some units.

I guess other than warp lightning cannons i have jezzails (which cost a lot of money in the form of 3 for 52 USD), more magic (which wouldn't cost that much money-wise but a lot in points) and poisoned wind globadiers. There isn't really a whole lot i can do vs a daemon prince and esp. one that can fly. Currently the poisoned wind globadiers sound like the best choice surprisingly (never thought i'd say that). I guess i'll just need to buy them even if they also cost quite a bit of money (1 model costs 10 USD).

Something like a DP is what slaves are designed for. He's going to wreck face whatever he goes against so the best thing to do is get something you don't mind losing face on. I know that's easier said than done cuz he moves a billion and knows kung fu, but that's the ideal solution.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Something like a DP is what slaves are designed for. He's going to wreck face whatever he goes against so the best thing to do is get something you don't mind losing face on. I know that's easier said than done cuz he moves a billion and knows kung fu, but that's the ideal solution.

So the daemon prince is 'neo' from 'the matrix' ;P? Maybe we should style him with a enough leather that it killed off 5 whole stables full of cows and give him mega shades haha.

Well you have to understand my problem. It's initiative is too high for cracks call or a brass orb to even be a problem. The jezzails will only cut through 4 of the armor and still be wounding it on 3's. Jezzails aren't bad but if i have to take down multiple chariots and a daemon prince i only have so much to throw in so many places and i don't have infinite money to throw down on a unit that'll only slightly handle my problems. I mean i can gun it down with warp lightning cannons but as i said it isn't the only fast moving units that he's got though luckily at least chariots would go down to 'cracks call'. I'd still have to hope i rolled up cracks call though.

I have had my slaves face the daemon prince and yes i can shoot into that combat but even with a BSB and a general they only hold for so long and as you stated before if it's a flying daemon prince he can just fly over a unit while charging the one behind it. It gets frustrating.

Problem is i'm just facing dudes that have ridiculous armor for their core units so when i have to face up against tough single models with high initiative, toughness, strength and armor it gets tiring to deal with them too. Thank god cracks call works better on chariots but even still i'd need to get skitterleap off and then cracks call provided my opponent can't dispell one or both.

My problem with the warriors of chaos army is they have no real weaknesses except average to slightly above average leadership per guy and average movement. This is provided i get all my magic off with my warpstone tokens, shoot like a king and move around like a boss. Not only that but he takes 'lore of metal' and sometimes tries to give himself scaly skin +5 armor to increase his armor save on his warriors of chaos to either 2+ or in the case of some dudes a 1+ armor save. That isn't a pretty prospect. Funny thing is i did well but my list's weakness to units like the chariots and daemon prince was my downfall. Even after killing about 39 of his 40 warriors of chaos with mark of khorne (and therefore frenzy) i still lost and that isn't an easy feat against a pretty experienced player. I myself am pretty good now. Thank god for warpstone tokens and my level 4 grey seer otherwise the game would've ended worse. Actually the warpfire throwers pulled most of the weight or at least took all the credit ;P. Some sweet moves on my part helped too but it's just not enough.

I suppose i should've taken skaven spells of plague but i keep sticking to ruin for some reason. Cracks call would help vs war machines and chariots i suppose. I guess plague magic would've helped a ton but other than plague i don't see how and poisoned attacks only stay on till the player's next magic phase if i remember correctly. That said it won't help if the daemon prince's base is only so large that not everybody can attack him back and he's got a bajillion attacks with a ton of armor and ward saves.

Still seems like jezzails or poisoned wind globadiers are my best choice and globadiers are so short ranged and would cost me 10 USD per model. If globadiers were more cost effective i could maybe grab 20 or more and then throw them into my list and maybe take them with a poisoned wind mortar on half the units and a globadier with a death globe on each unit. Maybe i'm just stuck with getting jezzails considering cost. Even then i just don't know what'd work. It's not an easy problem off the top of my head :/.

I would suggest the jezzails, but instead of buying them, simply convert a few pairs of clanrats into jezzail teams.... I sure aint gonna buy jezzails when they are expensive as they are.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


I have had my slaves face the daemon prince and yes i can shoot into that combat but even with a BSB and a general they only hold for so long and as you stated before if it's a flying daemon prince he can just fly over a unit while charging the one behind it. It gets frustrating.

Since in fantasy you can't move and charge, the flying DP cannot charge after it flies over your slaves.
Solution, face your slaves towards what ever you want to protect. And since units cannot be in b2b contact from movement, you'll either be able to
rear charge the DP, or the DP will have to rear charge your slaves. You win either way :'D

 LunaHound wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


I have had my slaves face the daemon prince and yes i can shoot into that combat but even with a BSB and a general they only hold for so long and as you stated before if it's a flying daemon prince he can just fly over a unit while charging the one behind it. It gets frustrating.

Since in fantasy you can't move and charge, the flying DP cannot charge after it flies over your slaves.
Solution, face your slaves towards what ever you want to protect. And since units cannot be in b2b contact from movement, you'll either be able to
rear charge the DP, or the DP will have to rear charge your slaves. You win either way :'D

I always thought the daemon prince is allowed to fly charge though and over intervening terrain and units since it is a large target.

 caledoneus wrote:
I would suggest the jezzails, but instead of buying them, simply convert a few pairs of clanrats into jezzail teams.... I sure aint gonna buy jezzails when they are expensive as they are.

I want to convert them but i don't have the skill and i'm unsure if a GW would accept the conversion for play. I'd personally rather buy the model except in the cases for really old or crappy models esp. in a unit (i pretty much refuse to buy night runners). That said the cost is just terrible. Guess it's a matter of what part of me can cave first. The part that'll fork over the cash for the model or the conversion of it.

Hmmm... I could be wrong, best to double check.
But if they cant fly charge, then no more problems :3

 LunaHound wrote:
Hmmm... I could be wrong, best to double check.
But if they cant fly charge, then no more problems :3

I think it normally couldn't see over units or at least some flying units but the daemon prince is a large target so it absolutely can and can therefore charge units behind other ones. The best case scenario is to just not leave enough room for the daemon prince to form up against my unit. Of course that'd mean said unit has to basically butt hug my unit of slaves *rolls eyes*.

pretty sure that a GW store would allow them as long as the base used for the model is a GW model (clanrats), but you could always check at the store to see.... as far as the skill goes, all you would need is something to be the "sheild" and then a rifle in larger scale... but if you don't feel comfortable with it, i understand that... I do some commision work sometimes, so i could look into seeing how much I'd charge to work a few up

I'd probably use the sniper rifle version of the master engineer but that many of them would probably end up costing about the same.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1530034a

Man so many skaven models need new model lines.

A big slave unit isn't designed to hold them up so you can attack the DP. Just assume the DP will never die. It's going to cost like 400+ pts. If you can throw enough slaves that it can't ever take them out, you simply kill the rest of his army and occupy them with significantly less points of your own.

I.e., don't touch him, he's hot. Or to quote Star Wars episode 1 (I think), "I'm not going in there with two jedi. Send a droid."

A few Jezzail conversions using simple kroot arms and kroot rifle

DukeRustfield wrote:
A big slave unit isn't designed to hold them up so you can attack the DP. Just assume the DP will never die. It's going to cost like 400+ pts. If you can throw enough slaves that it can't ever take them out, you simply kill the rest of his army and occupy them with significantly less points of your own.

I.e., don't touch him, he's hot. Or to quote Star Wars episode 1 (I think), "I'm not going in there with two jedi. Send a droid."

I get your point but sometimes the slaves do fail and die. I suppose if i can do it beyond the first combat that he can't overrun them or if i can get him stuck with the slaves. That said the slaves would need good leadership and for that i'd need a general and BSB nearby. I think we both know how this could end badly.

 LunaHound wrote:

A few Jezzail conversions using simple kroot arms and kroot rifle

Wow i actually like that! I suppose i could throw down a shield being held up by a clanrat if possible. The kroot hands look a little weird though but i suppose nothing's perfect. Yeah the arm size looks a bit off. Man if only it was just a little bit more to size. I dunno i might try something like that.

How about ratlings? I have a bunch of ratlings i never use and they're far cheaper. Alternatively i could buy some imperial guard snipers or something.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Wow i actually like that! I suppose i could throw down a shield being held up by a clanrat if possible. The kroot hands look a little weird though but i suppose nothing's perfect.

If you have some old clan rats, and dislike chopping things, the old clan rat body actually fits kroot arms perfectly.
IOB clan rats are also cheap enough if you want to swap the lower torso so they look less goofy, and if you have
left over current edition clan rat heads you can remove the old monkey heads.

Also Stormvermin have tons of triangle pavise, on ebay as bits.

 LunaHound wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Wow i actually like that! I suppose i could throw down a shield being held up by a clanrat if possible. The kroot hands look a little weird though but i suppose nothing's perfect.

If you have some old clan rats, and dislike chopping things, the old clan rat body actually fits kroot arms perfectly.
IOB clan rats are also cheap enough if you want to swap the lower torso so they look less goofy, and if you have
left over current edition clan rat heads you can remove the old monkey heads.

Also Stormvermin have tons of triangle pavise, on ebay as bits.

Yeah i see what you mean about the shields.

I'm wonder if any of these snipers from 40k might be good.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440248a&prodId=prod2010019

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1070130

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1070138

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1070130

The vostroyan sniper seems best.

Now may also be a good time to tell all of you i have 10 last version model ratlings that i almost never use. Would those work or are they too small and puny for jezzails?

I have a ton of stormvermin now. Once i build the next 20 it'll number around 60 stormvermin. I should have enough sheilds to compensate for jezzails. Also a lot of them have a hole on the center of the shield. This seems perfect to me. I may have to tear some off my normal stormvermin to use on jezzails if i can't find enough in my bitz and then replace the shields i took off with non-centered hole shields.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Wow i actually like that! I suppose i could throw down a shield being held up by a clanrat if possible. The kroot hands look a little weird though but i suppose nothing's perfect.

If you have some old clan rats, and dislike chopping things, the old clan rat body actually fits kroot arms perfectly.
IOB clan rats are also cheap enough if you want to swap the lower torso so they look less goofy, and if you have
left over current edition clan rat heads you can remove the old monkey heads.

Also Stormvermin have tons of triangle pavise, on ebay as bits.

Yeah i see what you mean about the shields.

I'm wonder if any of these snipers from 40k might be good.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440248a&prodId=prod2010019

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1070130

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1070138

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1070130

The vostroyan sniper seems best.

Now may also be a good time to tell all of you i have 10 last version model ratlings that i almost never use. Would those work or are they too small and puny for jezzails?

I have a ton of stormvermin now. Once i build the next 20 it'll number around 60 stormvermin. I should have enough sheilds to compensate for jezzails. Also a lot of them have a hole on the center of the shield. This seems perfect to me. I may have to tear some off my normal stormvermin to use on jezzails if i can't find enough in my bitz and then replace the shields i took off with non-centered hole shields.

Wow! thanks for reminding I have some old Ratling too!.
No they arnt too small at all, they'll be representing rats after all!. Only thing for me is, metal is troublesome to convert..
I wouldnt worry about shields on storm vermin, you just need the front rank for looks and WYSIWYG anyways :'P give the rest away!

Hope you guys don't mind but it's 2 AM and i have to get up in 6 hours so i'm going to bed for now. Maybe i'll continue this tomorrow at around 6 PM my time (16 hours from now i guess). Meh another day gone by with zero time for games :(. Well hopefully i'm not dead at work tomorrow.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Hmmm... I could be wrong, best to double check.
But if they cant fly charge, then no more problems :3

I think it normally couldn't see over units or at least some flying units but the daemon prince is a large target so it absolutely can and can therefore charge units behind other ones. The best case scenario is to just not leave enough room for the daemon prince to form up against my unit. Of course that'd mean said unit has to basically butt hug my unit of slaves *rolls eyes*.

Just so you know the WoC DP isn't a large target but the DoC one is...Odd i know but that's how it's written.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Well you have to understand my problem.

I do. A DP loaded for bear is next to immune. The solution is indeed not to try. He'll only heal any damage in combat. Medium Slave blocks are the only viable answer. With two such blocks on each flank of your main block(s) you can cover a lot of ground and angles. It's not fool proof of course but what is? Once he's in combat he'll take some time to munch through. Ld 8 re-rollable has a 92.6 % chance to pass. During this time, you're holding down 500 points with 100 or so and can use your local superiority to kill something else. Forget about shooting into combat.

To stop him cold in his tracks, take the Stormbanner and reveal it on his turn once he's close enough to fly over your units out of charge arcs. A one turn no-fly zone might be all you need, a second one would be pretty nifty.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Problem is i'm just facing dudes that have ridiculous armor for their core units so when i have to face up against tough single models with high initiative, toughness, strength and armor it gets tiring to deal with them too.

My problem with the warriors of chaos army is they have no real weaknesses except average to slightly above average leadership per guy and average movement.

WoC have plenty of weaknesses to exploit. Mobility and speed are not amongst them. Core fast cav, knights, MC, flyers, M6-7 MI, vanguard options, chariots, even Marauders with Wulfrik provide that aplenty.

You shouldn't only think in terms of armour and units and stats. Sure, that's important and you're probably missing a few goodies but that's just the groundwork. Take 50 Clanrats vs. 18 MoN Halberds: Your guys will lose, badly, and pretty rapidly. Taking down even one guy will be difficult when you're in bus, and you're dead if you field them as a horde.

However, if those Clanrats can get into the flank of those Warriors, you'll turn a massacre into a very solid win for you. He probably kills 3 or so and has a standard but you've got that, charge, flank, and 3 ranks, and he tests to run or reform on a 5. Skaven have all it takes to pull this off - ratdarts and all the small stuff to get in the way and turn blows aside, a Slave bus to take the charge and make him present a flank and whatnot. One single shot with a WLC at WoC heavy infantry can blow them out of the water. Not shooting the DP removes that burden right away. Remember that you don't have to kill everything, you just need to be ahead 100 points or focus on the objective.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Hmmm... I could be wrong, best to double check.
But if they cant fly charge, then no more problems :3

I think it normally couldn't see over units or at least some flying units but the daemon prince is a large target so it absolutely can and can therefore charge units behind other ones. The best case scenario is to just not leave enough room for the daemon prince to form up against my unit. Of course that'd mean said unit has to basically butt hug my unit of slaves *rolls eyes*.

Just a quick heads up: the USR "Large Target" has nothing to do with LOS. The only thing it does is not allowing you to take cover behind obstacles. WHFB 8th uses TLOS thus you always look from your model's eyes.

Bonus: Necron Deathmark snipers also make great Jazzil rifles.

Do it the rat way. Swamp him, and start casting cloud of corruption.
Warriors of chaos do not like D6 S6 hits.
Skaven barely notice it.

-Matt

 LunaHound wrote:
Hmmm... I could be wrong, best to double check.
But if they cant fly charge, then no more problems :3

They can Fly charge over intervening models and terrain as long as they have LoS and follow the other charge rules(IE: charging the facing you are in and having enough space to fit)

i might be new at this , but once the slaves are in combat with e daemon prince can you combat reform in your turn to a column and then fire the warp fire throwers, get maybe 20+ hits s5 randomised hits with d3 dmg per wound i killed 4 mounfang cav this way.

You cannot remove anyone from base contact when combat reforming, but apart from that you're free to reform within the usual rules

Warp Fire Throwers don't get to randomize in CC (and by the way, it's one of the only weapons you can shoot into any CC, read carefully the BRB) with slaves as it's not used in the same way as regular shooting, you randomize "succesful hits". That's from regular shooting, not from cannons / catapults and such

TanKoL wrote:
You cannot remove anyone from base contact when combat reforming, but apart from that you're free to reform within the usual rules

Warp Fire Throwers don't get to randomize in CC (and by the way, it's one of the only weapons you can shoot into any CC, read carefully the BRB) with slaves as it's not used in the same way as regular shooting, you randomize "succesful hits". That's from regular shooting, not from cannons / catapults and such

Now that i have read the skaven slave page in thier army book and have examined the BRB carefully i'm gonna do the most awful thing and disagree with you, the BRB say that you can only ever target a unit that is unengaged regardless of what shooting weapon it is then that rule is over ridden by the skaven army book that allows it only with slaves and i quote"As combatants are continously in motion succeful hits have to randomised" it say nothing about except templates that hit like they accidently hit them.

So you see when shooting you always have to have a primary target in mind and that target must be unengaged, unless youir skaven and you target is engaed with the slaves then it perfectly ok to fire into the combat with what ever weapon at the primary target but then randomising all the hits!

Not with a WFT, you simply indicate a direction and then roll for range, the other warmachines have a sentence saying you can't shoot so as to hit your own troops (including with a 20" cannonball bounce)

Yeah, the Skaven FAQ removed the randomizing part from the shooting into combat with slaves. I've seen sustained fire from a trio of ratling guns down the daemon prince.
But as I said earlier, could of corruption is brutal on warriors of chaos.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Yeah, the Skaven FAQ removed the randomizing part from the shooting into combat with slaves. I've seen sustained fire from a trio of ratling guns down the daemon prince.
But as I said earlier, could of corruption is brutal on warriors of chaos.

-Matt

i just looked at the FAQ, the only part mention slaves on it was regarding panic tests, nothing on getting rid of randomisation. so i state it is completly legal to fire a warp fire thrower at the slaves and the daemon prince at then randomise the hits.

Hettar wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Yeah, the Skaven FAQ removed the randomizing part from the shooting into combat with slaves. I've seen sustained fire from a trio of ratling guns down the daemon prince.
But as I said earlier, could of corruption is brutal on warriors of chaos.

-Matt

i just looked at the FAQ, the only part mention slaves on it was regarding panic tests, nothing on getting rid of randomisation. so i state it is completly legal to fire a warp fire thrower at the slaves and the daemon prince at then randomise the hits.

Page 4 of the Skaven FAQ under Amendments:
Page 36 Expendable: Delete the last two sentences.
By deleting the last two sentences, you remove the rule that makes you randomize when you fire into combat.


-Matt

I take them down with doom wheels, They are too good.