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Firstly, apologies for the pun in the title.

Secondly, hello all! New to the forums and to W40K (at least in its tabletop sense), so be gentle ^_^

I'm trying to work out the advantage of AP1 over AP2. As I read the rules, the only benefit is that you get an extra +1 on the vehicle damage table?

The number by the AP tells you what armour save it negates, so AP1 negates 1+ armour....but no save can ever be better than 2+?

Am I missing something?

Cheers!

Dream and Death wrote:
the only benefit is that you get an extra +1 on the vehicle damage table

There you go! It's a nice bonus...

Also, THEORETICALLY, a unit could have a 1+ save, since saving rolls of a 1 always fail anyway, it would be essentially the same as a 2+ save against small arms fire. The big difference would be that you would be able to take an armour save against plasma but not melta.

Fortunately Games Workshop has not done this to us yet.

 akaean wrote:
Also, THEORETICALLY, a unit could have a 1+ save, since saving rolls of a 1 always fail anyway, it would be essentially the same as a 2+ save against small arms fire. The big difference would be that you would be able to take an armour save against plasma but not melta.

Fortunately Games Workshop has not done this to us yet.

That's actually wrong, a common mistake.
The save is capped at 2+, there is no theoretical 1+. And a the roll of a one is NOT always a fail.
See page 2.

To be fair he did say SAVING rolls of a 1 always fail, however that is given as a consequence of the "maximum save" rule, not a separate rule in and of itself.

It means my Pathfinders with Rail Rifles can make transports explode easier than if they were AP2.

Even if we have a way to modify the dice roll, and not the save, there still is no additional benefit from AP 1 over AP 2. The rules state the lowest your characteristic can get is 2+. Even with a modified dice roll, anything of AP2 is going to outright deny you even the chance to roll against it.

It all comes down to popping tanks, and oh my god do I love having AP 1 weapons for that purpose. Just by itself it gives you a 50% chance of making any vehicle disappear on the first penetrating shot. Even if it fails to explode, that bonus negates the possibility of the vehicle suffering an 'annoyance' in favor for the more devastating disabilities on all rolls bar 1.

A 16.66% increase, on an already existing 16.66% bonus, to the chance of doing really bad stuff is more then enough.

With a vehicle damage chart with only 6 options, +2 on the results is a huge difference.

I don't know if this is true since I don't play Apocalypse but I was told there are ways of reducing a 2+ armor save to 1+ where you would need Ap 1 to bypass its armor. I will play in my 1st Apoc game on July 27th and could have lowered a 2+ to a 1+ but nooooo they FAQ Jokaeros mods to affect ICs that start w/ them.

As of right now there is no way to get a 1+ Save in 40K (Fantasy yes, but that is a different system). Based on how GW clarified 1+ Saves in Fantasy, if they ever released a model that had a 1+ Armour Save (I think the odds of that happening are worse than succesfully navigating an asteroid field), AP1 would ignore it, AP2 would not, but you would still need to roll a 2+ to pass.

in past editions you could get 1+ armor saves on a few units. I know 4th Hive Tyrants could with warp field and armored shell. It would actually have a benifit since AP2 would bounce off,but you would fail on a 1.

I have to check the eldar codex. I know Warlocks can grant +1 armor, i have to see if its capped at 2+. Im betting it is, but the codex is new so i cant be sure.

 Happyjew wrote:
As of right now there is no way to get a 1+ Save in 40K (Fantasy yes, but that is a different system). Based on how GW clarified 1+ Saves in Fantasy, if they ever released a model that had a 1+ Armour Save (I think the odds of that happening are worse than succesfully navigating an asteroid field), AP1 would ignore it, AP2 would not, but you would still need to roll a 2+ to pass.

a 1+ save would be odd anyway. though I guess there would be some situations where it would be useful (Being shot by a Lascannon for one).

(I think the odds of that happening are worse than succesfully[sic] navigating an asteroid field)

That's three thousand, seven hundred and twenty to one!

No benefit on saves, but huge benefit on armour pen rolls.

An extra +1 may not seem great, but your now allways going to be rolling 3+ on the chart, no matter what.
Which really is useful since your now going to wreck vehicles alot more. (everyone has bad rolls, this just compensates a bit)

Just want to say, congrats on knowing how asteroid fields really work!

I play a really melta-heavy army, and that +1 on the vehicle damage table helps out quite a bit.

Ask your local Necron players how they fell about a whopping +3 on the damage chart.

Or better yet, Dark Elder. I think they have even more open topped vehicles then the poor nekkies, which are in the same boat. That makes it impossible to roll anything less then a 4 on the charts, and oh how they hate that.

FYI, the AP1 only occurs on To-wound rolls of a 6, not Armor Pen rolls..they are different things all together,

Therefore you never get AP1 against vehicles unless this is FAQ'd later.

Same with Shuriken weapons.

 mortetvie wrote:
FYI, the AP1 only occurs on To-wound rolls of a 6, not Armor Pen rolls..they are different things all together,

Therefore you never get AP1 against vehicles unless this is FAQ'd later.

Same with Shuriken weapons.

Rending is AP2 against non-vehicle models. Also there are quite a few weapons that are AP1 standard.

I have a related query:

What's the point of monofilament weapons being resolved at AP1 if they only work against non-vehicles (and AP1/AP2 are only distinct when vehicles are the target)?

Does GW have some 1+ Armor saves in the works, perhaps?

I would of normally said doubtful, as they would fly in the face of all the rules currently established over armor saves, but this is Game Workshop we are talking about here.

Still interesting point, there are weapons that have AP 1 and can not target vehicles. There really is no reason for them to be posted as anything lower then AP 2, as 1 and 2 have the same outcome. That is probably the answer in and of itself though. Because the outcome is the same no one really cared enough that AP 1 has no additional benefit over AP 2, closing the book and calling it a day without realizing it would raise a question in the player base as to why AP 1 non-vehicle targeting weapons even exist.

Of course, the fact they might already be eying their next gigantic Monstrous Creature and wondering how they can make it more OP then the last is a good answer as well.

AunVa's shield in the new Codex makes a difference between AP1 and AP2. I forget exactly how it works, though, if anyone has the book to hand...?

 Happyjew wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
FYI, the AP1 only occurs on To-wound rolls of a 6, not Armor Pen rolls..they are different things all together,

Therefore you never get AP1 against vehicles unless this is FAQ'd later.

Same with Shuriken weapons.

Rending is AP2 against non-vehicle models. Also there are quite a few weapons that are AP1 standard.

Huh? So what exactly did your comment add to or clarify? Like I said, Shuriken Weapons and Monofilament weapons only get their bonus of AP against models with a T value so vehicles will never be affected by the AP2/1 rules of these weapons.

I guess the Monofilament rule of AP1 makes you feel like the model is just that much more dead or something...

Good catch, very good catch there Super.

I won't give out the rule, this site is not a replacement for an actual codex, but AP 1 weapons are very important against him. In short, he never takes a wound from them period. In such cases having AP 1 and AP 2 against a 'non-vehicle' makes all the difference. This means a precedent has been set and gives insight into what they might do in the future: They may or may not be looking at releasing units with 1+ Armour saves, but might have additional rules that adjust how AP 1 weapons react to non-vehicle units.

Thanks, saves me blaming all of this on an oversight.

 mortetvie wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
FYI, the AP1 only occurs on To-wound rolls of a 6, not Armor Pen rolls..they are different things all together,

Therefore you never get AP1 against vehicles unless this is FAQ'd later.

Same with Shuriken weapons.

Rending is AP2 against non-vehicle models. Also there are quite a few weapons that are AP1 standard.

Huh? So what exactly did your comment add to or clarify? Like I said, Shuriken Weapons and Monofilament weapons only get their bonus of AP against models with a T value so vehicles will never be affected by the AP2/1 rules of these weapons.

I guess the Monofilament rule of AP1 makes you feel like the model is just that much more dead or something...

I had assumed you were talking about the Rending USR (especially since nobody brought up Rending or Eldar pseudo-rending). As such I was clarifying in case somebody who does not know the rules that well stumbles upon this thread and erroneously thinks that Rending is AP1.

 mortetvie wrote:
Like I said, Shuriken Weapons and Monofilament weapons only get their bonus of AP against models with a T value so vehicles will never be affected by the AP2/1 rules of these weapons.

Actually, what you said was,

 mortetvie wrote:
FYI, the AP1 only occurs on To-wound rolls of a 6, not Armor Pen rolls..they are different things all together

No one in the thread up to that point had mentioned Shuriken or Monofilament weapons, nor did you mention those types of weapons. So to phrase your comment slightly differently (but still accurately), "There's no such thing as AP1 unless you're comparing against Toughness and you roll a 6." Of course, this is a ridiculous thing to say, and so it needed to be clarified.

JinxDragon wrote:
Or better yet, Dark Elder. I think they have even more open topped vehicles then the poor nekkies, which are in the same boat. That makes it impossible to roll anything less then a 4 on the charts, and oh how they hate that.

Necrons have the living metal which is a heck of a lot better than AV10.

I did think about editing that post to point out the whole AV 10 on nearly all of their craft. It means that the main rail gun is never going to do anything bar penetrate on an unsaved hit. Added with the whole ~50% explode rate of these craft. Yeah, I love the fact the main person I play against is primarily Dark Elder. It is one of the few things that get around my bad luck, so I have come to celebrate every single vehicle that explodes.

Still, that is what Dark Elder get for bringing crafts made out of paper up against a real army.

if Dark Eldar are running Raiders and Ravagers in full view of high powered weapons, one has already lost. Mobility and shields are their defense, not armor values.

 zephoid wrote:
in past editions you could get 1+ armor saves on a few units. I know 4th Hive Tyrants could with warp field and armored shell. It would actually have a benifit since AP2 would bounce off,but you would fail on a 1.

I have to check the eldar codex. I know Warlocks can grant +1 armor, i have to see if its capped at 2+. Im betting it is, but the codex is new so i cant be sure.

No they couldnt. Best they could do, in the 4th edition codex, was a 2+ save. 4th edition also had the rule that no save could be better than a 2+, with the consequence that a saving throw of a 1 always failed.