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Trazyn the Murderous wrote: I'm sure this has probably been asked before, but is there anything that makes Warmahordes better than 40k or vice versa? Thanks in advance.
I guess you have not been in miniature gaming as long as I do. Otherwise, you will not even bother to ask this question. I refuse to consider 40K at all for the following reasons:
1. All my old 40K models are outdated. Imagine the money you spent and time you painted going into a waste in a few years. That is unacceptable. Same has not happened so far with WM.
2. GW does not back up their products. Before they wore down their official forum, any word that mentioned "squats" or "Man o' War" would get your post banned and deleted. They gave up all their specialist games. Fxxk you, GW. I did purchase your products with my hard earned money. I have not encountered any other companies that have such polices.
3. Their products are either outrage in prices or quality being sub-standard.
4. Armies are never balanced on purpose and I guarantee that they will never be.
5. Rules, in comparison with other gamers, are mediocre at best.
5. It brews a community of power-gamers that are native, short-sighted and have an altitude problem.
I've been wargaming since 1988, and I still prefer 40k. I used to play WMH, but my group and I dropped it when 6th edition came out. Anyway, thought I'd counter some of your points:
1. That's your choice. I cannot see how GW has forced all of your 40k models to become outdated. If it was because of new rules, maybe you would stop using one or two units. But it does appear you are exaggerating somewhat.
2. They don't have to back up their products. There are plenty of companies that drop particular lines if they are not selling or not considered to 'work' any more.
2.1. Stating that people were banned or had posts deleted simply due to mentioning squats or Man of War is nonsense. Again, an exaggeration.
3. That's quite ironic, as I've considered PP models designs to be way below average (the gargantuans look awful [Skorne dinosaucers?], and most of the 'jacks and hordes beasts convey a He Man toy look), and no way is WMH cheaper than GW. The models are often on par in price, with few modelling options. Personally, I think GW's models are miles ahead in quality and design than PP's stuff, and the same can be said for a number of companies.
4. True, but the latest codices are bringing things into balance. Mind you, many many games (wargaming and computer games) are unbalanced.
5. Not sure what you mean by comparing rules with other gamers. How do you compare 40k against gamers? Ahhh typo Anyway, you are exaggerating. The rules, whilst lacking clarity, still provide a coherent framework for having a fun battle. I admit that WMH has better rules, but the system only seems to work in skirmish settings; it becomes cumbersome with larger engagements.
5. Good lord, what company does not have its fair share of powergamers? I've encountered just as many power gamers in roleplay and WMH sessions as I have playing 40k. Is GW now at fault for allowing powergamers?
Look, each to their own with games. But this PP versus GW debate is reaching ridiculous levels. I wish we could all enjoy both games with the snarkiness evidenced in your post. When WMH came out, I understand many GW fans trashed it. Unfairly so. But the pendulum seems to have swung the other way, as some WMH fans have consumed too much PP Koolaid
I went and took a look at WMH models today, and I was shocked at the prices.
They wanted $100 NZD for three Khador... Storm troopers or something. Guys in armoured suits, though not warjacks. My comparison someone earning minimum wage takes home $80 NZD at the end of the day after tax.
That said, five Sternguard Vets for 40k was like $80, but with that game I haven't bought a model from a store in over a decade - why do that when you can find Orks online for 50c per model pretty reliably?
Any way to get these guys cheaper? Nobody seems to be selling them 2nd hand, which does speak volumes in itself.
Dakkamite wrote: I went and took a look at WMH models today, and I was shocked at the prices.
They wanted $100 NZD for three Khador... Storm troopers or something. Guys in armoured suits, though not warjacks. My comparison someone earning minimum wage takes home $80 NZD at the end of the day after tax.
That said, five Sternguard Vets for 40k was like $80, but with that game I haven't bought a model from a store in over a decade - why do that when you can find Orks online for 50c per model pretty reliably?
Any way to get these guys cheaper? Nobody seems to be selling them 2nd hand, which does speak volumes in itself.
Online Vendors mostly. I don't know what vendors ship to you, but as an american these guys are good: http://www.discountgamesinc.com/ . You might get pounded on the shipping though.
Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States
Dakkamite wrote: I went and took a look at WMH models today, and I was shocked at the prices.
They wanted $100 NZD for three Khador... Storm troopers or something. Guys in armoured suits, though not warjacks. My comparison someone earning minimum wage takes home $80 NZD at the end of the day after tax.
That said, five Sternguard Vets for 40k was like $80, but with that game I haven't bought a model from a store in over a decade - why do that when you can find Orks online for 50c per model pretty reliably?
Any way to get these guys cheaper? Nobody seems to be selling them 2nd hand, which does speak volumes in itself.
Units and that tend to be very expensive (either they are made with all metal or their Plastic which seems to be PVC or resin) granted if you look around, you can find it 25% off or so most stores. While it may be expensive as Warhammer 40k and/ or maybe a bit less, it is much, much cheaper to actually start up. Then again, it seems Australia has always gotten the gakky part of the deal when it comes to pricing of Miniature Wargaming it seems. :/
The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
The thing is about WMH, the individual models maybe pricy but you buy them once....MAYBE twice on a few of them. Many of them you cant even have multiples of, and others wtf would you take multiples of it for.
40k you spend 50-80 dollars on a few models, and cant even field them becaus eyou need another box same price to run them. In most cases, to max the unit out you need 3-4 boxes at that price. Then you gotta factor in all the other options that box might work for, so you buy it again. Then the big stuff that costs even more than that that you get 2-3 of. It never ends. i STILL want to get some more orks, but i keep going "Wtf are you thinking look under your cardtable ya idiot you still got 600worth of orks unassembled" lol
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
I've been wargaming since 1988, and I still prefer 40k. I used to play WMH, but my group and I dropped it when 6th edition came out. Anyway, thought I'd counter some of your points:
1. That's your choice. I cannot see how GW has forced all of your 40k models to become outdated. If it was because of new rules, maybe you would stop using one or two units. But it does appear you are exaggerating somewhat.
2. They don't have to back up their products. There are plenty of companies that drop particular lines if they are not selling or not considered to 'work' any more.
2.1. Stating that people were banned or had posts deleted simply due to mentioning squats or Man of War is nonsense. Again, an exaggeration.
3. That's quite ironic, as I've considered PP models designs to be way below average (the gargantuans look awful [Skorne dinosaucers?], and most of the 'jacks and hordes beasts convey a He Man toy look), and no way is WMH cheaper than GW. The models are often on par in price, with few modelling options. Personally, I think GW's models are miles ahead in quality and design than PP's stuff, and the same can be said for a number of companies.
4. True, but the latest codices are bringing things into balance. Mind you, many many games (wargaming and computer games) are unbalanced.
5. Not sure what you mean by comparing rules with other gamers. How do you compare 40k against gamers? Ahhh typo Anyway, you are exaggerating. The rules, whilst lacking clarity, still provide a coherent framework for having a fun battle. I admit that WMH has better rules, but the system only seems to work in skirmish settings; it becomes cumbersome with larger engagements.
5. Good lord, what company does not have its fair share of powergamers? I've encountered just as many power gamers in roleplay and WMH sessions as I have playing 40k. Is GW now at fault for allowing powergamers?
Look, each to their own with games. But this PP versus GW debate is reaching ridiculous levels. I wish we could all enjoy both games with the snarkiness evidenced in your post. When WMH came out, I understand many GW fans trashed it. Unfairly so. But the pendulum seems to have swung the other way, as some WMH fans have consumed too much PP Koolaid
Let me add a few counter points:
1. In Rogue Trader, Space Marines could be armed with Shuriken Catapults, Lasguns, or Bolters. In the 6th ed Dark Angels codex, you can no longer field an entire squad of T-Hammer/SS Deathwing Terminators. GW took away whole squads with the SoB White Dwarf update. If you played Space Wolves from 3rd-4th Ed, you probably had a Leman Russ Executioner tank. 6th Ed? No more. Every time a Codex get's "updated" or re-written, units are changed or dropped, and new ones added forcing some players to purchase new models and shelve old models. In WM/H, units fall into and out of favor depending on the tournament scene or release of new models that make other models more attractive for a particular play style.
2. A company that doesn't stand by its products isn't a good company. People were indeed banned at the "official" GW forums for pressing the Squat issue, or a bunch of other issues (mostly just the Trolls). They also deleted any thread critical of GW, it's models, or company policy. In the end, the GW Forums were so polarizing, that it became too much trouble for GW and they were brought down. Same thing with GW's Facebook page. Also, up until a month ago, if you bought a model from one of those other companies, you were "violating GW's Intellectual Property Rights". Despite the fact that GW produced rules for units that they had no models for... and don't get me started on the Dark Angels codex and how GW dropped the ball on that one (editing? What's that? You mean their are Vampires in the Dark Angels? Disappearing wargear? No stats on some wargear? Conflicting stats? An entire UNIT FAQ'ed? ) PP has not invalidated whole armies (Squats), nor effectively updated a line into obscurity (SoB's). PP also still has Forums and a Facebook page. Moderating a forum is always a challenge, and let's be honest here- a company isn't going to let an internet poster (Troll) trash their company on it's own forums.
3. GW is a better modeling company. Then again, GW has always stated they are a model company first, game company second and their products reflect that. This is a niche hobby, and both companies charge players/hobbyist/enthusiasts what they think they can afford. Warmachine/Hordes however has a lower starting price point. So... if you compare the costs of a 50 point competitive Warmachine list with a 2000 point tournament40K list, you would find the Warmachine/Hordes list way, way cheaper. $50 gets you a 10-15 point list and rules. For $100, you get two armies around 20 points, dice, tape measure, and rulebook. Buy the current 40K Starter box, and you get what, about 300-400 points worth of models? Want a new WM/H army? Swap out your Warcaster/Warlock and watch your entire army play differently. If I collected every model available for a faction, yeah, it'll cost about the same as a large 40K army. However, I'll have an infinite way of playing that entire faction compared to a similarly priced 40K army. I would add here that while PP may not be up to the same model quality as GW, they have an excellent customer service department similar to GW's.
4. You concede this point, then go on to introduce other games. Warmachine/Hordes is the most balanced, player customizable table top miniatures game I've ever played. GW is inconsistent with its Codex/Army Books. They can't seem to find a good balance within their own game system... but then again, GW is a modeling company first.
5. I guarantee the game of 40K you play between you and your group in your area is different from the way I play 40K with my play group. If we went to another area, they would play the game differently too. Don't believe me? /shrug It's true. I've seen more then one game dissolve into a rules argument that was never resolved. Every single time I have played 40K, I've had to open up the rule book and talk about a rule. So many rules often contradict each other, with no timing or rule priority. To solve a rules issue, I have to roll a d6? I can travel all over the world, and be able to throw down a game of WM/H and not have to worry about House Rules or the interpretation of some rule.
6. Yup, every game has it's share of power gamers, WM/H and 40K are no exception. Neither one made the other (chicken or egg? ).
Your last point I agree with 100%. You have also added snarkiness to your post talking about drinking PP Koolaid. I play both games to satisfy different wargamming needs. Both are fun in their own unique ways, and unfortunately, threads like this will continue to be created comparing both systems to each other. It's human nature.
Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience
Dakkamite wrote: I went and took a look at WMH models today, and I was shocked at the prices.
They wanted $100 NZD for three Khador... Storm troopers or something. Guys in armoured suits, though not warjacks. My comparison someone earning minimum wage takes home $80 NZD at the end of the day after tax.
That said, five Sternguard Vets for 40k was like $80, but with that game I haven't bought a model from a store in over a decade - why do that when you can find Orks online for 50c per model pretty reliably?
Any way to get these guys cheaper? Nobody seems to be selling them 2nd hand, which does speak volumes in itself.
As noted already, individual pieces might cost more, but you need much less of them. The unit you are looking at is even an old sculpt of the current Man'o'War Shocktroopers. The metal ones (three dudes) are no longer available. The plastic unit they have now is actually less than the metallic version you saw and comes with all five guys in it.
Even the most infantry-heavy armies aren't a lot of models in PP stuff. The largest army in my Circle Oroboros force I would bring to a game has something like 40-50 models. So while a Wolve of Orboros might be $7.00USD per for a grunt, the fact that I will only ever need 12 models of the unit for any game I ever play normally is going to have longterm savings.
As far as pricing goes, some LGS seem to gouge prices really hard. I purchased pButcher online for 13$, the only LGS within an hour of me charge triple that for the same sculpt. I am all for supporting your LGS, small retail stores have it tough sometimes, but I need to live too and I cant justify spending that much more on the same product.
Also - Speaking of start up costs. With many factions, there are several warjacks that are built on the same chassis design. What is awesome about this is that it allows us to magnetize the different parts between models so that we can switch the model based on which one we want to run. Want to run a jugg but only have a destroyer? No problem, just pop it's arms off and change em out. Need a marauder? same thing. Need a black Ivan? Torch? well those are more complicated but definately doable. Rare earth neodymium magnets around 1/8" in dia. will hold any bit together. Due to these designs that translate directly from the fluff, I can switch between half the warjacks in my faction and it only cost me around 40$.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Warmachine may have a lower entrance price, but when you take into consideration making a tournament ready collection its about on par with a 40k tournament sized army.
To play Warmachine competitively, you are usually looking at 2 50 point lists plus 20 points of specialists. There may be some overlap between the lists but only certain basic units.
100ish points of Warmachine is going to easily run you $500 to $600. About what a smartly purchased 2k 40k army will run.
The only difference is you could have just about everything you'd need to have a nice varied casual and competitive experience with Warmachine.
Bottom line. You will spend just as much on Warmachine as you do with 40k, but you get a little more bang for your buck in Warmachine.
A single purchase can completely alter your playstyle with Warmachine. In 40k it usually can't.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Warmachine may have a lower entrance price, but when you take into consideration making a tournament ready collection its about on par with a 40k tournament sized army.
To play Warmachine competitively, you are usually looking at 2 50 point lists plus 20 points of specialists. There may be some overlap between the lists but only certain basic units.
100ish points of Warmachine is going to easily run you $500 to $600. About what a smartly purchased 2k 40k army will run.
The only difference is you could have just about everything you'd need to have a nice varied casual and competitive experience with Warmachine.
Bottom line. You will spend just as much on Warmachine as you do with 40k, but you get a little more bang for your buck in Warmachine.
A single purchase can completely alter your playstyle with Warmachine. In 40k it usually can't.
Total cost is sadly so wildly effected by the reasonable prices you can get in your region,
Here the price equivalency is lost almost completely if you are buying anything other than tac marines and a few other items. If you are buying fine cast in comparison to solos and war casters you can expect to pay twice or Triple with what GW is offering.
And that's both with local and Australian stores, if you start adding in rules GW shoots up in price massively.
The warmachine or hordes rule book cost me about 34$ each with the 40k one costing 100$.
Value wise I think the warmachine and hordes books are beyond better value.
With codex getting to about 70$ now the prices are getting further apart very quickly D:
Now in other thoughts I was so excited for the daemons release, but I have even only been able to play a few games since. 40k dieing off so much and the players here being reluctant to even play daemons after the first few games at where I play.
Something I think I share with them :0 I just can't see 40k retaining players here in comparison to wm/h being that one of the bigist draws people place on the ease of getting a game.
Just a sad state to be in as a 40k player here it would be
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/17 09:04:43
Grey Templar wrote: Warmachine may have a lower entrance price, but when you take into consideration making a tournament ready collection its about on par with a 40k tournament sized army.
To play Warmachine competitively, you are usually looking at 2 50 point lists plus 20 points of specialists. There may be some overlap between the lists but only certain basic units.
100ish points of Warmachine is going to easily run you $500 to $600. About what a smartly purchased 2k 40k army will run.
The only difference is you could have just about everything you'd need to have a nice varied casual and competitive experience with Warmachine.
Bottom line. You will spend just as much on Warmachine as you do with 40k, but you get a little more bang for your buck in Warmachine.
A single purchase can completely alter your playstyle with Warmachine. In 40k it usually can't.
Much of what you are saying is extremely opinionated. You are saying that 2 full armies of warmachine plus half as many specialist units that you can swap in and out of those armies to customize the lists is the same cost as a single warhammer list with no options? Arent you just proving everyone's point there?
I can only speak from a khador standpoint but there is massive overlap in that faction, and I reckon there is massive overlap in other factions as well. Iron fang pikemen for example, they can be effective in so many lists with so many warcasters, e/pIrusk, e/pButcher, strakhov, sorscha, Old witch, well pretty much any warcaster can effectively run IFP except maybe karchev. The same goes for Winterguard, and Kayazy, and manhunters, and widowmakers, and beast 09, and greatbears, and... well you see my point. You could go to a tourny with two warjacks and a couple squads of infantry and be all set for pretty much anything, not to mention the fact that you can swap warjack chassis into half a dozen different models which just expands your options even more. What about factions like Cygnar? How many lists do you see running a squire, a journeyman warcaster, ATGMS, black 13th, a defender, ol rowdy, etc etc. Oh yes, there is much more overlap between lists than just a certain basic unit. Granted some lists will have much less overlap but I do not think that is hugely common.
I do not know about the pricing in your area, but, I pay about the same price for the same number of models for warhammer as I do for warmachine. I purchased a slann mage priest for lizardmen for around 50$. Necron infantry were about 3$ per model. However, I need many times more of them than I do with warmachine.
Grey Templar wrote: Warmachine may have a lower entrance price, but when you take into consideration making a tournament ready collection its about on par with a 40k tournament sized army.
To play Warmachine competitively, you are usually looking at 2 50 point lists plus 20 points of specialists. There may be some overlap between the lists but only certain basic units.
100ish points of Warmachine is going to easily run you $500 to $600. About what a smartly purchased 2k 40k army will run.
The only difference is you could have just about everything you'd need to have a nice varied casual and competitive experience with Warmachine.
Bottom line. You will spend just as much on Warmachine as you do with 40k, but you get a little more bang for your buck in Warmachine.
A single purchase can completely alter your playstyle with Warmachine. In 40k it usually can't.
Much of what you are saying is extremely opinionated. You are saying that 2 full armies of warmachine plus half as many specialist units that you can swap in and out of those armies to customize the lists is the same cost as a single warhammer list with no options? Arent you just proving everyone's point there?
I can only speak from a khador standpoint but there is massive overlap in that faction, and I reckon there is massive overlap in other factions as well. Iron fang pikemen for example, they can be effective in so many lists with so many warcasters, e/pIrusk, e/pButcher, strakhov, sorscha, Old witch, well pretty much any warcaster can effectively run IFP except maybe karchev. The same goes for Winterguard, and Kayazy, and manhunters, and widowmakers, and beast 09, and greatbears, and... well you see my point. You could go to a tourny with two warjacks and a couple squads of infantry and be all set for pretty much anything, not to mention the fact that you can swap warjack chassis into half a dozen different models which just expands your options even more. What about factions like Cygnar? How many lists do you see running a squire, a journeyman warcaster, ATGMS, black 13th, a defender, ol rowdy, etc etc. Oh yes, there is much more overlap between lists than just a certain basic unit. Granted some lists will have much less overlap but I do not think that is hugely common.
I do not know about the pricing in your area, but, I pay about the same price for the same number of models for warhammer as I do for warmachine. I purchased a slann mage priest for lizardmen for around 50$. Necron infantry were about 3$ per model. However, I need many times more of them than I do with warmachine.
I am comparing what it takes to play the game competitively. Or simply have what I would consider a normal collection(with plenty of extra options to swap out)
If you only ever play with a single list in warmachine, yes its cheaper than 40k. But if you have a tournament ready army, or a moderate sized collection, you are spending about the same as you would for a 40k army.
The Warmachine army just gives you more flexibility within its game system. its not any cheaper.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
If you have large, equally priced collections of 40k & WHM you'll probably have 1 viable "Build" with your 40k list, you'll have 10+ WM/H lists you can play. This is because it takes a comparatively much smaller change in models to make a meaningful game play difference in WM/H. Put another way the cost per unique gameplay experience, is much much lower for WM/H.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/17 18:05:09
Grey Templar wrote: The Warmachine army just gives you more flexibility within its game system. its not any cheaper.
Yes it is. Just because you can spend as much on your Warmachine or Hordes collection] as you can on your 40k army doesn't mean Warmachine is just as expensive.
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Its only cheaper if you keep your collection at around 50 points and don't play additional lists.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I am comparing what it takes to play the game competitively. Or simply have what I would consider a normal collection(with plenty of extra options to swap out)
If you only ever play with a single list in warmachine, yes its cheaper than 40k. But if you have a tournament ready army, or a moderate sized collection, you are spending about the same as you would for a 40k army.
The Warmachine army just gives you more flexibility within its game system. its not any cheaper.
To achieve flexibility in Warhammer 40k can take up to 6 of the same unit with the double force org. 6 stormhawks is going to cost almost $600 by itself. 6 space marine units + rhino/razorbacks + drop pods is going to be closer to $720. If you're trying to collect an army or even a company of space marines, it's going to cost a lot more than Warmahordes. Neither of these choices even makes an army, it's just achieving flexibility. Many tourney players cut corners and get minimal flexibility, but there's no reason that warhordes can't do that either.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Both games what you bring matters
The difference is that in 40k there are only a few models that work, and they also tend to be the most expensive models money wise (and often times unsurprisingly the cheapest points for their effectiveness). This is a GW business practice designed to sell models
In WM/H on the other hand, with few exception every single model in every single army can perform extremely well if used properly
Another thing is, if your friend isn't even willing to try out a FREE DEMO of another game, that is because he is afraid he will like the other game better. Once that is acknowledge he will also have to acknowledge the fact that he spent thousands on 40k when he could have been spending a fraction of that money on WM/H for a much better game. This realization will lead him to question all aspects of his life, including his job, his kids, his wife. All of it! Obviously he won't be able to handle the fact that everything in his life is wrong, that everything could have been better and he will turn to drugs. Only alcohol at first but that won't be enough as he realizes that going for the first choice was what lead him down this path in the first place... no he needs the good stuff, the stuff that the government says you can't have...
Long story short! If he isn't even willing to demo it once, don't waste your time and breathe
The way you tell the story of what could happen reminds me of those annoying DISH commercials that tell you to get rid of your cable. good show, friend. I like your spirit.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
The discussion on the cost for 40K has not even taken Forge World models into consideration. But, of course, it is not tournament legal because most of the fanboys cannot afford them and therefore have them banned.
World Forge makes products that have been accepted by copyright by GW. I spent money on them and therefore I feel that I should be able to use in any tournaments I want. If you have an issue, tough luck. Work hard and earn more money instead of wasting time to play games instead.
The argument also seems to center on a 2K list comparing to 2 50 points armies in WM. This is very biased out right. 2K is the minimal standard. 3K is a more appropriate comparison. And as I mentioned in my previous post, most of the models will be outdated in a few years making the hobby extremely expensive to own.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/17 19:10:03
Templar, you are saying that it would cost roughly similar amounts of money to field a 2000pt 40k army as it would to field 120 points worth of war machine/hordes. But 120 points of war machine would give you two complete armies of the largest size plus 20 points of extra models, whereas 2000 points of war hammer gives you a single army that is smaller than your standard army size (standard size is still 3000 right?). How is there any comparison here? Your example lands me 140% more
army than warhammer.
KingKodo wrote: Templar, you are saying that it would cost roughly similar amounts of money to field a 2000pt 40k army as it would to field 120 points worth of war machine/hordes. But 120 points of war machine would give you two complete armies of the largest size plus 20 points of extra models, whereas 2000 points of war hammer gives you a single army that is smaller than your standard army size (standard size is still 3000 right?). How is there any comparison here? Your example lands me 140% more army than warhammer.
You are right here, but standard 40k size is 1850-2000 points these days.
But yeah, I did a price comparison once between an 1850pt 40k list that placed at adapticon, and everything in a 3-list 50pt set that won a warmahordes tourney (and the three lists had very little overlap), and they were both about the same price. But that's 3 lists at 50 points which could be made into many other lists easily by mixing and matching or just adding a different warcaster, against a single list and setup.
So yeah, it can be the same price, but you generally get more game out of Warmahordes for it. At the same time, I know people who have 10,000 pts plus of a single 40k army, but most people who get into warmahordes only get one or two of any unit, and so that sort of collectors habit generally turns out cheaper as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 01:41:19
Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.
Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else!
Grey Templar wrote: Warmachine may have a lower entrance price, but when you take into consideration making a tournament ready collection its about on par with a 40k tournament sized army.
To play Warmachine competitively, you are usually looking at 2 50 point lists plus 20 points of specialists. There may be some overlap between the lists but only certain basic units.
100ish points of Warmachine is going to easily run you $500 to $600. About what a smartly purchased 2k 40k army will run.
The only difference is you could have just about everything you'd need to have a nice varied casual and competitive experience with Warmachine.
Bottom line. You will spend just as much on Warmachine as you do with 40k, but you get a little more bang for your buck in Warmachine.
A single purchase can completely alter your playstyle with Warmachine. In 40k it usually can't.
This is obscured on both ends
50x2+20 points of Warmachine is closer to $400
Here is a random swarm of Menoth stuff Coolstuffinc, this is probably more than enough to make 2x 50pt lists + bunch of extra solo specialist. This totals around $400
It has a Battlegroup
3x Extra Heavy Jacks
3~5x Full Units with their UA (or appropriate Seneschal solo)
6~8 Solos
Spoiler:
Name In Stock In Cart Price Total
Protectorate Battlegroup Box Set - Plastic Thumb Nail Protectorate Battlegroup Box Set - Plastic
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $37.49 $37.49
Protectorate Castigator/Reckoner/Sanctifier Heavy Warjack Kit (plastic) Thumb Nail Protectorate Castigator/Reckoner/Sanctifier Heavy Warjack Kit (plastic)
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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2 $26.29 $52.58
Protectorate Choir of Menoth Unit Box Thumb Nail Protectorate Choir of Menoth Unit Box
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $23.99 $23.99
Protectorate Epic Warcaster Feora, Protector of the Flame Thumb Nail Protectorate Epic Warcaster Feora, Protector of the Flame
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $13.49 $13.49
Protectorate Errant Officer & Standard Bearer Thumb Nail Protectorate Errant Officer & Standard Bearer
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $17.49 $17.49
Protectorate Exemplar Bastion Seneschal Thumb Nail Protectorate Exemplar Bastion Seneschal
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, Near Mint)
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1 $18.79 $18.79
Protectorate Exemplar Bastions Unit (5 Plastic Models) Thumb Nail Protectorate Exemplar Bastions Unit (5 Plastic Models)
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $33.99 $33.99
Protectorate Exemplar Errant Seneschal Thumb Nail Protectorate Exemplar Errant Seneschal
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $10.99 $10.99
Protectorate Exemplar Errants Unit Box Thumb Nail Protectorate Exemplar Errants Unit Box
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $37.49 $37.49
Protectorate Flameguard Unit Attachment Thumb Nail Protectorate Flameguard Unit Attachment
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $14.99 $14.99
Protectorate Flameguard Unit Box Thumb Nail Protectorate Flameguard Unit Box
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $24.99 $24.99
Protectorate Heavy Plastic Warjack Kit Thumb Nail Protectorate Heavy Plastic Warjack Kit
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $25.99 $25.99
Protectorate Hierophant Warcaster Attachment Thumb Nail Protectorate Hierophant Warcaster Attachment
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $7.49 $7.49
Protectorate Knights Exemplar Unit Box (plastic) Thumb Nail Protectorate Knights Exemplar Unit Box (plastic)
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $26.29 $26.29
Protectorate Nicia, Tear of Vengeance Solo Thumb Nail Protectorate Nicia, Tear of Vengeance Solo
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $9.79 $9.79
Protectorate Paladin of the Order of the Wall Thumb Nail Protectorate Paladin of the Order of the Wall
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $8.99 $8.99
Protectorate Reclaimer Thumb Nail Protectorate Reclaimer
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $7.49 $7.49
Protectorate Vassal of Menoth Thumb Nail Protectorate Vassal of Menoth
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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2 $5.99 $11.98
Protectorate Warcaster High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza Thumb Nail Protectorate Warcaster High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $8.99 $8.99
Protectorate Wracks (3) Thumb Nail Protectorate Wracks (3)
(Warmachine - Protectorate of Menoth, New)
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1 $14.99 $14.99
An average 40k serious list ballpacks in the $600 for 1500, or near $1000 for 2000. Yea you can try stretching your points, taking tons of upgrades you don't need but seriously...
40K is more expensive overall because they choose to be more expensive, their entire goal is to sell you stuff. That is why they are making so many powerful but expensive low points models or extremely low point models where you need like 50 of them to have a decent point score of that model
The individual model price for 40k might be slightly cheaper than PP, but the overall army price is way way higher
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 01:47:42
The individual model price for 40k might be slightly cheaper than PP, but the overall army price is way way higher
But that's not even true for a large chunk of models. Individual 40k models are now over $20 a pop for man sized where as WarmHordes is as low as $9 for some. Terminators are more expensive than bastions/manowars. 10 power armor grey knights costs more than the new exemplar errants. Warjacks are cheaper than dreadnaughts. Battle engines and colossals are cheaper than most appoc models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 18:38:47
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RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Battle Engines and Colossals aren't even close to the size of some apoc models.
They're roughly equivalent to a baneblade as far as what you get for your money. And point to cost ratio is much worse than getting other warmachine stuff. I can get 4 warjacks for the same cost as a Colossal, but the Colossal is only the equivalent of maybe 2-3.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Battle Engines and Colossals aren't even close to the size of some apoc models.
They're roughly equivalent to a baneblade as far as what you get for your money. And point to cost ratio is much worse than getting other warmachine stuff. I can get 4 warjacks for the same cost as a Colossal, but the Colossal is only the equivalent of maybe 2-3.
Well considering a baneblade costs $5 more than a colossal, I wouldn't consider my point invalidated.
And the second part doesn't even fit in to what we are discussing, but it's largely irrelevant. Transports have terrible money/point cost ratios it doesn't make them bad buys because the model kit isn't as cheap as it's points.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Grey Templar wrote: Its only cheaper if you keep your collection at around 50 points and don't play additional lists.
So yes, the game is cheaper than 40k with the option to become equally or more expensive. Just like every miniatures game!
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Having played both systems, I can honestly say I like Warmachine a lot more as a game but 40k more as a setting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Having played both systems, I can honestly say I like Warmachine a lot more as a game but 40k more as a setting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/27 06:13:45
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
My new Cygnar list at 35pts which is standard in my area cost £147.80 - That includes an £81 Colossal (I could've just got a 'Jack at £12 and a unit at £20 instead - Depends how you want to play).
If I wanted to build the standard effective 1500pts list it would cost a minimum of £300. Double the price, it really is that simple.
You can build an effective Warmachine 25pts army for as little as £50 brand new. That wouldn't buy you a legal 40k Army of any point size.
If you wanted to bump your 35pt Warmachine army to the 50pt range it could cost anything from £30 to £100. If you wanted to bump that 40k army to 2000pt, you would really be starting at £100.
You know, something just struck me as being very funny. 40k players in general seem to make almost religious significance about complaining how expensive GW models are, then we get all defensive and start rationalizing when we hear that Warmachine is less expensive.
I wonder why that is...
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BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.