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Karandras grants his unit Infiltrate and Stealth and being Battle Bros with DE and Tau opens up a world of awesome and fun/killy options with this guy, plus he's actually quite the little beatstick in his own right.

So, some of the possibilities that have popped up are:

Karandras with 20 Guardians with Scatter Lasers and maybe even an Archon in there for even more killing power.

Karandras with a maxed out Grotesque squad and maybe even Urien for tanking and giving em S6.

Karandras with his own aspect, the Striking Scorpions plus an Archon tooled up for melee killing.

Karandras with Bloodbrides with all the trimmings and an Archon.

All these options could be made even more powerful by adding a Farseer to try to get Doom on the target unit, and he could fly around on a bike with a squad of bikes who now actually put out a scary amount of firepower themselves.

What does Dakkadakka think, is Karandras just a fun option or a must have in new eldar lists? What other lists and unit combos can you think of that would be scary to face or just fun to play? ?
?

 Windir83 wrote:

Karandras with 20 Guardians with Scatter Lasers (for that nifty twin linking) and maybe even an Archon in there for even more killing power.

Scatter Lasers don't quite work like that. Read your codex and look for the word 'squad', you'll instead find the word model

Don't think I infiltrating with a none infiltrate unit works.

Ah, model...damn :(

On the Karandras Infiltrating thing, my local meta has been discussion it quite a bit as of late. Expect GW to faq it rather quickly.

Karandas is actually Creed in Phoenix armor?

Tau allies aren't really relevant since they already have Shadowsun giving an even better cover bonus (and abilities that match better with the overall Tau strategy). I suppose in theory you could use both, but I can't imagine that kind of point sink being very appealing.

What IS scary about Karandaras- is Scorpions Claws do not count as Unwieldy- so its striking at full Initiative. And then +1S from the Scorpion chainsword. Unless that gets FAQ'd, its a S8(+1) Initiative 7 ap2, with 5 base attacks(Scorpion chainsword second weapon). Then the potential rerolls to wound from Monster hunter and Stalker... Oh and the hit from the Scorpions Bite helmet...

Since Im fairly certain his abilities dont transfer to squads that dont have them- his role is that of a top tier beat stick. And currently one of the scariest, until/if/when the FAQ on the Scorpions Claw comes out.

He is at least the most expensive of the Phoenix Lords- so perhaps everything is working as intended.

 Mistress of minis wrote:
What IS scary about Karandaras- is Scorpions Claws do not count as Unwieldy- so its striking at full Initiative. And then +1S from the Scorpion chainsword. Unless that gets FAQ'd, its a S8(+1) Initiative 7 ap2, with 5 base attacks(Scorpion chainsword second weapon).

You only gain the benefits of whichever weapon you're using. No FAQ necessary as it's covered in the basic rules.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Mistress of minis wrote:
What IS scary about Karandaras- is Scorpions Claws do not count as Unwieldy- so its striking at full Initiative. And then +1S from the Scorpion chainsword. Unless that gets FAQ'd, its a S8(+1) Initiative 7 ap2, with 5 base attacks(Scorpion chainsword second weapon).

You only gain the benefits of whichever weapon you're using. No FAQ necessary as it's covered in the basic rules.

Isn't that only true for Specialist Weapons? I don't have the rulebook here atm, but I think you would get both benefits from those since neither are classified as Specialist.

Specialist weapons mean you have to have 2 to get the extra +1A for 2CCW. You can only ever use the abilities from one weapon. Otherwise look at Abbadon

 Mistress of minis wrote:
What IS scary about Karandaras- is Scorpions Claws do not count as Unwieldy- so its striking at full Initiative. And then +1S from the Scorpion chainsword. Unless that gets FAQ'd, its a S8(+1) Initiative 7 ap2, with 5 base attacks(Scorpion chainsword second weapon). Then the potential rerolls to wound from Monster hunter and Stalker... Oh and the hit from the Scorpions Bite helmet...

Since Im fairly certain his abilities dont transfer to squads that dont have them- his role is that of a top tier beat stick. And currently one of the scariest, until/if/when the FAQ on the Scorpions Claw comes out.

He is at least the most expensive of the Phoenix Lords- so perhaps everything is working as intended.

He is scary, but he really doesnt sound much different or scarier than Drazhar. Drazhar gets either 4 S6 Init 7 AP2 attacks or 6 S4 Init 7 AP2 attacks. He has the potential to get FNP and FC from killing stuff and has PE IC.

 Exergy wrote:

 Mistress of minis wrote:
What IS scary about Karandaras- is Scorpions Claws do not count as Unwieldy- so its striking at full Initiative. And then +1S from the Scorpion chainsword. Unless that gets FAQ'd, its a S8(+1) Initiative 7 ap2, with 5 base attacks(Scorpion chainsword second weapon). Then the potential rerolls to wound from Monster hunter and Stalker... Oh and the hit from the Scorpions Bite helmet...

Since Im fairly certain his abilities dont transfer to squads that dont have them- his role is that of a top tier beat stick. And currently one of the scariest, until/if/when the FAQ on the Scorpions Claw comes out.

He is at least the most expensive of the Phoenix Lords- so perhaps everything is working as intended.

He is scary, but he really doesnt sound much different or scarier than Drazhar. Drazhar gets either 4 S6 Init 7 AP2 attacks or 6 S4 Init 7 AP2 attacks. He has the potential to get FNP and FC from killing stuff and has PE IC.

Drazhar also gets bonus attacks on a 6 to save or wound.

karandras gets infiltrate, which makes him much easier to get into CC without spending points onf transports and such, also, as much as i like the drazhar model, i think karandras looks pretty dope.

 zephoid wrote:
Specialist weapons mean you have to have 2 to get the extra +1A for 2CCW. You can only ever use the abilities from one weapon. Otherwise look at Abbadon

Or Wolf Claw/Powerfist Terminators. I'd kill for reroll to hit powerfists.

Drazhar is pretty useless vs vehicles, especially walkers. Karandras beats the crap out of them. Karandras gets 5A S8 AP2 and an additional hit S6 AP- at I10, all of which reroll to wound vs MCs (and likely everything thanks to I7 and Stalker). Karandras has stealth, move through cover, and infiltrate to benefit his unit. Finally, Karandras has grenades and EW.

Since Karandras don't confer infiltrate... but, he'd confer outflanking to the squad... right?

What about a really shooty unit to outflank with?

 whembly wrote:
Since Karandras don't confer infiltrate... but, he'd confer outflanking to the squad... right?

What about a really shooty unit to outflank with?

Technically he does confer Infiltrate to his squad (which means that, yes, he also confers Outflank)... just not in a manner that lets them actually infiltrate.

Honestly, though, if you want to outflank a shooty squad, you're probably better off using Illic Nightshade. He's only 140 points compared to Karandras's 230, and I think that if you're spending that many points on a single model you want him running his butt off into Melee as quickly as you can get him there rather than hanging out in reserves. I imagine that there might be tactical situations where you want to keep him off-table for a couple of turns, but I really can't think of any offhand (hiding him from shooting is better accomplished just by putting him in a Scorpion squad, IMO).

 Windir83 wrote:
Karandras grants his unit Infiltrate and Stealth and being Battle Bros with DE and Tau opens up a world of awesome and fun/killy options with this guy, plus he's actually quite the little beatstick in his own right.

So, some of the possibilities that have popped up are:

Karandras with 20 Guardians with Scatter Lasers and maybe even an Archon in there for even more killing power.

Karandras with a maxed out Grotesque squad and maybe even Urien for tanking and giving em S6.

Karandras with his own aspect, the Striking Scorpions plus an Archon tooled up for melee killing.

Karandras with Bloodbrides with all the trimmings and an Archon.

All these options could be made even more powerful by adding a Farseer to try to get Doom on the target unit, and he could fly around on a bike with a squad of bikes who now actually put out a scary amount of firepower themselves.

What does Dakkadakka think, is Karandras just a fun option or a must have in new eldar lists? What other lists and unit combos can you think of that would be scary to face or just fun to play? ?


?

All good and proper. Karandras gives infiltrate to the squad he takes with him, fire dragons would be fun. Unfortunately an IC without infiltrate cannot join the unit being infiltrated. Check the infiltrate rule on (i think) page 38 of the BRB last sentance regarding IC's

I contemplated infiltrating a unit of wraithguard with d-scythes, with a spiritseer (or two).

This makes for a T6 unit with stealth, shrouded (probably), a 2+ EW save to soak wounds, and a 6+d6+8' bubble of "Get off my lawn" d-scythes. Additionally, while no-one in their right mind would want to charge into d-scythes, if they do find themselves in combat, Big-K can cause a few wounds.

Mandrakes!... Wait, no, adding Karandras still wouldn't make them good

Toofpuller wrote:

All good and proper. Karandras gives infiltrate to the squad he takes with him, fire dragons would be fun. Unfortunately an IC without infiltrate cannot join the unit being infiltrated. Check the infiltrate rule on (i think) page 38 of the BRB last sentance regarding IC's

The BAO FAQ (and other events that use the FAQ) rules that an IC with Infiltrate can pass it on to a unit during deployment allowing them all to infiltrate together, so if you play in an area where that is applicable, go nuts!

 whitedragon wrote:

Toofpuller wrote:

All good and proper. Karandras gives infiltrate to the squad he takes with him, fire dragons would be fun. Unfortunately an IC without infiltrate cannot join the unit being infiltrated. Check the infiltrate rule on (i think) page 38 of the BRB last sentance regarding IC's

The BAO FAQ (and other events that use the FAQ) rules that an IC with Infiltrate can pass it on to a unit during deployment allowing them all to infiltrate together, so if you play in an area where that is applicable, go nuts!

For those lucky enough to have house rules that allow ICs to join units pre-deployment like they used to do in 5th Edition HAVE FUN and infiltrate away!



==========================================================================================

For the rest of us, this won't work per the current RAW. Here's what I've come up with from the rulebook in Q&A form:

Q: When does deployment occur?
A: Page 424, "Before you ... play a game"

Q: When can an IC be viewed as having already joined a unit?
A: Page 39, when you "begin the game"
Q: So, not before the game?
A: No, when you "begin the game" (p39)

Q: How do you get an IC into position so that the IC can "begin the game already with a unit"?
A1: By deploying the IC into unit coherency with a separate unit that's on the battlefield. (p39: "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit...by being deployed in unit coherency with [the unit]")
A2: By declaration after the IC and the unit are placed into reserves separately. (p39: "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit...in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit [the IC] has joined.")

Q: When do ICs/units with infiltrate deploy?
A: Page 121, after "both players have deployed their main force" that does not have the infiltrate rule.

Q: Can units deploy in transports?
A: Per page 121, yes, "Units can be deployed in transport vehicles if you wish"
Q: So I have a choice?
A: Yes.
Q: How does that work?
A: Page 121, "simply declare to your opponent which units are embarked where." This tells me that the transport is already on the battlefield because I'm declaring where specifically on the battlefield my unit is embarked. I'm not declaring where my unit is going to be embarked before I place the transport, but where my unit is embarked on a vehicle that's already on the battlefield and available to have units placed into it.
Q: What about dedicated transports?
A: Page 121, "only the unit [the dedicated transport] was selected with...can deploy within it." ((This also reinforced the position that vehicles are placed onto the battlefield BEFORE the unit because the unit with its dedicated transport is NOT deployed WITH the transport, but is rather deployed into it.))
Q: What about ICs? Can they still join the unit and deploy inside the transport?
A: Yes, page 121, "any ICs that have joined the unit) can deploy within [the dedicated transport]."
Q: How do you deal with deploying ICs with units that have dedicated transports?
A: Page 121, "simply declare to your opponent [where the IC is] embarked". The IC is being placed after the transport, so the transport must be on the battlefield already because the transport is available to be embarked on.
Q: Why does that work?
A: Page 79, "If an IC (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the IC was within 2" of the unit." So, being embarked into a transport automatically grants unit cohesion. Do units and ICs have to be joined before they embark in a vehicle? No, they just both need room inside the vehicle. The joining happens AFTER they get inside.

Q: What about Reserves? When are units seen as joined in Reserves?
A: First, the player must, page 124 "declare which units are kept as Reserves", then the player must, "clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to his opponent."
Q: How do you do that?
A: Page 124 continues, the player "must specify to the opponent if any of his ICs left in reserve are joining a unit." First the IC and the unit are placed in Reserves separately and remain separate until the organization of the Reserves is explained and the IC is declared to have joined a unit already in Reserves with the IC.


So, to sum up ICs can begin the game already joined to units in two ways.

1. By being deployed into unit cohesion with another unit already on the battlefield (either within 2 inches or within a transport)
2. By being declared as joined while in Reserves.

Both of these happen during/after deployment, not before deployment.

(Here's hoping for a FAQ that will return the timing of ICs joining units to pre-deployment!)

Belly wrote:
On the Karandras Infiltrating thing, my local meta has been discussion it quite a bit as of late. Expect GW to faq it rather quickly.

Considering it has been an issue since 5th edition and they still haven't touched it, I highly doubt they will hurry up now just because you are your mates decided it was time, no offense.

 w0lfgang7 wrote:

For the rest of us, this won't work per the current RAW. Here's what I've come up with from the rulebook in Q&A form:

Q: When does deployment occur?
A: Page 424, "Before you ... play a game"

Q: When can an IC be viewed as having already joined a unit?
A: Page 39, when you "begin the game"
Q: So, not before the game?
A: No, when you "begin the game" (p39)

Q: How do you get an IC into position so that the IC can "begin the game already with a unit"?
A1: By deploying the IC into unit coherency with a separate unit that's on the battlefield. (p39: "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit...by being deployed in unit coherency with [the unit]")
A2: By declaration after the IC and the unit are placed into reserves separately. (p39: "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit...in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit [the IC] has joined.")

Q: When do ICs/units with infiltrate deploy?
A: Page 121, after "both players have deployed their main force" that does not have the infiltrate rule.

Q: Can units deploy in transports?
A: Per page 121, yes, "Units can be deployed in transport vehicles if you wish"
Q: So I have a choice?
A: Yes.
Q: How does that work?
A: Page 121, "simply declare to your opponent which units are embarked where." This tells me that the transport is already on the battlefield because I'm declaring where specifically on the battlefield my unit is embarked. I'm not declaring where my unit is going to be embarked before I place the transport, but where my unit is embarked on a vehicle that's already on the battlefield and available to have units placed into it.
Q: What about dedicated transports?
A: Page 121, "only the unit [the dedicated transport] was selected with...can deploy within it." ((This also reinforced the position that vehicles are placed onto the battlefield BEFORE the unit because the unit with its dedicated transport is NOT deployed WITH the transport, but is rather deployed into it.))
Q: What about ICs? Can they still join the unit and deploy inside the transport?
A: Yes, page 121, "any ICs that have joined the unit) can deploy within [the dedicated transport]."
Q: How do you deal with deploying ICs with units that have dedicated transports?
A: Page 121, "simply declare to your opponent [where the IC is] embarked". The IC is being placed after the transport, so the transport must be on the battlefield already because the transport is available to be embarked on.
Q: Why does that work?
A: Page 79, "If an IC (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the IC was within 2" of the unit." So, being embarked into a transport automatically grants unit cohesion. Do units and ICs have to be joined before they embark in a vehicle? No, they just both need room inside the vehicle. The joining happens AFTER they get inside.

Q: What about Reserves? When are units seen as joined in Reserves?
A: First, the player must, page 124 "declare which units are kept as Reserves", then the player must, "clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to his opponent."
Q: How do you do that?
A: Page 124 continues, the player "must specify to the opponent if any of his ICs left in reserve are joining a unit." First the IC and the unit are placed in Reserves separately and remain separate until the organization of the Reserves is explained and the IC is declared to have joined a unit already in Reserves with the IC.


So, to sum up ICs can begin the game already joined to units in two ways.

1. By being deployed into unit cohesion with another unit already on the battlefield (either within 2 inches or within a transport)
2. By being declared as joined while in Reserves.

Both of these happen during/after deployment, not before deployment.

(Here's hoping for a FAQ that will return the timing of ICs joining units to pre-deployment!)

Hi. Not arguing for the sake of arguing or because I would be peeved that a capability would be taken away from me (I don't currently have Karandras and no current plans to get him), but I don't think the above works.

We all agree that if Karandras joins the unit before Deployment that the unit he joins can infiltrate, correct? Pg. 39 states that Independent Character is "part of the unit for all rules purposes".

And we all agree that an IC can begin the game already with a unit. The rather arcane case for saying they can't infiltrate is the text on pg. 424 using the sentence "Before you can play a game..." and then having Deployment as one of the stages below that heading. And thus arguing that Deployment is "before the game".

The sentence is merely "Before you can play a game, you will need to prepare a few things:" and then it goes into a long list of stages culminating in the Seize the Initiative dice roll which is after deployment.

It seems a huge amount of weight is being placed on an informal sentence tucked away in a summary appendix trying to build the case that because the IC rules section happens to say: "an IC can begin the game..." and a note in the appendix saying: "before you can play a game...". Too much weight to be honest. I'm very much with the groups that would reject such tenuous reasoning. There's not even a line in that section which indicates when the game begins - i.e. it just rolls on to the first turn / movement phase. If Deployment is "before the game" because of that text, then there's no line in the same section that actually stops Movement phase being "before the game", it's just common sense. That line at the start is not rules text defining some formal "before the game" period.

Now that highlights how shaky I consider the foundation for arguing they can't infiltrate a unit they begin the game with. Now to highlight a few things that actively show it isn't the case.

Firstly, if attachment to a unit happens only during deployment, then I should be able to choose which warlocks with which random powers go with which unit (that would be nice) because attachment would only happen during the actual deployment which is after rolling psyker powers. And yet it's implicitly made clear that joining of the warlocks to units happens prior to deployment immediately after determining warlord traits. Not only is the case for not allowing the infiltration very weak, it contradicts actual known similar situations elsewhere in the rules.

Secondly, if the joining of an independent character to a unit is not prior to their actual deploying, then the rules on pg. 121 about dedicated transports would be meaningless (and we can assume that they are not). They state that "only the unit was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined the unit) can deploy within it. Clearly the IC and the unit have already been joined prior to deploying them both. If you're going to build a case on as slim a platform as "IC's can begin the game joined..." contradicting a sentence "before you begin" in a different section, then rules actually stating that an IC has joined a unit prior to deployment is certainly good enough - and is actually in the same section and explicitly part of the rules rather than just introductory text to the rules sequence.

Thirdly, some of the available Warlord powers are explicitly allowed to affect a joined unit during deployment. Example "Master of Manoeuvre" grants Outflank to the unit he is with. If, as per your reasoning, IC and unit joining occurs "when the game begins" and that this is after deployment, then this warlord power would make no sense and the wording actually makes clear that they must in fact be joined prior to the units actually deploying. No other interpretation makes sense. We have clear cases where an IC (the Warlord) must have joined the unit prior to actual deployment.

Finally the actual wording of Infiltrate itself, talking about units that contain at least one model, suggests this case.

So we have an extremely weak case for disallowing it based on very strict interpretation of non-rules text in disparate sections of the book (one of which is merely the sequence summary in the appendix), versus a natural assumption backed up wording that seems to assume it is the case, parallel cases that we know are valid and actual items that demonstrate it can't be the case.

Really not convinced on this one. As far as I'm concerned (and I think most others side with it normally, unless pre-exposed to the argument to convince them its not the case, against their expectations), Karandras can infiltrate a unit with him.

why are we debating in a 5 month old thread? Infiltrating still has to be fixed, as currently it works as wolfgang says. Who wants to take my bet that when they fix it they specify how Nightspear works with it. Currently hes less than useless with the wonderful ability to jump 1" away from an enemy unit.... with a sniper rifle. Would make more sense if he would lead a unit there and then provide fire support. However, GW will probably be a year or two before making an eldar FAQ and dont even try to get the brb faq'd in any reasonable amount of time on actual issues.

 zephoid wrote:
why are we debating in a 5 month old thread?

It was only on page 3, not buried in some ancient days. I had a reply to what someone wrote.I would hope it's not too much trouble to ignore for those that are not interested.

 zephoid wrote:
as currently it works as wolfgang says.

I don't believe so. I just gave a number of reasons to believe it doesn't.

See, this is the sort of thread necro that makes sense. Also, I'm considering running karandras, a spiritseer (for that runes of battle) and a unit of dire avengers together for some turn 1 Assaulting.

It's also rather timely considering the complications to infiltration caused by servo-skulls. So yeah, no objection to this particular thread necro here. The corpse was still pretty fresh, anyway.