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I believe the $1million was a round number that was arrived at by one of the dakkaites that happens to be an attorney; in his estimate of billable hours, average attorney fees per hour, filing and other court costs and the number of legal staff involved.

Feel free to dig through the other thread to find the original post.

Reading this made me think of this case - it should have been that simple.

 Taarnak wrote:

The reason that I bring it up is that some people will read what you wrote and take it as fact, which it seems not to be. Then we as a community will spend a very long time correcting them every time it is re-posted. It just doesn't help in the larger discussion. Not trying to pick on you or Aka_mythos. Just want you to think about it from that angle.

This is a very good point. GW will never publish how much the trial cost them as there is no possible benefit to them in doing so, and it's in the interests of CHS not to itemise the value of the pro bono work it received (which would, most likely, be impossible in any case). As such, we'll never know how much Games Workshop paid, or how much CHS didn't, and there can't be any meaningful discourse on the relative magnitudes of their expenditure (beyond the virtual certainty that GW paid for counsel, and the public knowledge that CHS didn't).

As to the consequences? I suspect there won't be any, at least not on any grand scale. Nobody who had a mind to buy conversion kits ever opted not to just "Because Games Workshop says they're illegal". That means that the market for aftermarket bits isn't going to increase overnight as a result of this ruling. The market may increase as other competitors to CHS appear, releasing alternative aftermarket customisation kits that appeal to new customers enough to convince them to start buying aftermarket stuff, but personally I don't think it'll boom.

And whatever happens, it won't noticeably affect Games Workshop's sales - the aftermarket parts rely on the purchase of the initial GW minis in the first instance. I guess it's possible that GW might get more militant about recognisable CHS-outfitted models appearing in their stores and Warhammer World - it'd be petty, since it's the only way they can 'punish' the company and its customers now the case is over, but nothing I've seen out of GW's management suggests they're above being petty.

I can live in the fool's hope that it might convince GW to broaden its/Forgeworld's approach to customisation kits and bits, but I'm hardly gong to hold my breath on that.

I think there will be an impact if more bits companies start to mention GW trademarks and units as part of the compatibility text - the results will start to appear under searches for those trademarks.

This means more people will stumble upon the 3rd parties than before, where conversion kits had obtuse names to skirt around the issue.

In the bigger picture I think things will largely continue as normal, but the 3rd parties will gain ground slightly faster.

 Taarnak wrote:

So, a comment that was pure speculation then? When you wrote your initial comment I thought there had been some sort of factual release of the information somewhere. If there was, someone will point it out to me and then the rest of my post will be irrelevant. If there wasn't, read on:

The reason that I bring it up is that some people will read what you wrote and take it as fact, which it seems not to be. Then we as a community will spend a very long time correcting them every time it is re-posted. It just doesn't help in the larger discussion. Not trying to pick on you or Aka_mythos. Just want you to think about it from that angle.

Thanks for taking the time to dig up the specific link, I appreciate that.

~Eric

No problem, but just to put it on the other side, the initial $1 million is pure speculation as well, yet it is now being quoted all over the internet as fact. You didn't rush in and tell those posters to think about what they were posting. Sorry it comes off as hypocritical to lecture posters that put the numbers in GW's favor, but to not lecture those that put GW in a negative light.

silent25 wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

So, a comment that was pure speculation then? When you wrote your initial comment I thought there had been some sort of factual release of the information somewhere. If there was, someone will point it out to me and then the rest of my post will be irrelevant. If there wasn't, read on:

The reason that I bring it up is that some people will read what you wrote and take it as fact, which it seems not to be. Then we as a community will spend a very long time correcting them every time it is re-posted. It just doesn't help in the larger discussion. Not trying to pick on you or Aka_mythos. Just want you to think about it from that angle.

Thanks for taking the time to dig up the specific link, I appreciate that.

~Eric

No problem, but just to put it on the other side, the initial $1 million is pure speculation as well, yet it is now being quoted all over the internet as fact. You didn't rush in and tell those posters to think about what they were posting. Sorry it comes off as hypocritical to lecture posters that put the numbers in GW's favor, but to not lecture those that put GW in a negative light.

It would be hypocritical if I were throwing around the $1M figure, I agree. I have not done so to my recollection, though.

Having said that, the $1M is speculation, but it at least can also be labeled an "educated guess" because the person who made it has some knowledge of what they speak. I do agree it should not be quoted as the gospel truth though. Completely.

~Eric

Herzlos wrote:
I think there will be an impact if more bits companies start to mention GW trademarks and units as part of the compatibility text - the results will start to appear under searches for those trademarks.

This means more people will stumble upon the 3rd parties than before, where conversion kits had obtuse names to skirt around the issue.

In the bigger picture I think things will largely continue as normal, but the 3rd parties will gain ground slightly faster.

Yes and no, you see most of us third party designers really don't want to deal with law suits as not all of us are lucky enough to get pro-bono legal work. Honestly it's just easier to avoid the IP issue all together like many of us have and just create your own stuff that can be used for anything. If you focus on one specific market (even one as broad as GW) you are just hamstringing your self right out of the gate and even with this verdict GW will still sue people. Why deal with the hassle all together and just do things on your own. Look at Victoria Lamb even though her stuff is similar it's still original enough that she is fine legally. Heck a lot of the parts I produce I sit down with the sculptors and we insure we are not infringing on IP. You have to remember just because CH came out well does not always mean everyone else will as that's just how the U.S legal system works. Honestly several other much bigger companies received letters initially over infringement and they removed as it's just smart business because you have to decide is something worth the cost of the fight.

 AustonT wrote:

That's funny I was MORE apt to convert my metal minis...

Makes sense, especially if you're trying to stretch a few poses of infantry to fill out an army or similar. Then again, I have two squads of 'IG Militia' formed from metal Necromunda minis ina case at home, so...

Mythal wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

The reason that I bring it up is that some people will read what you wrote and take it as fact, which it seems not to be. Then we as a community will spend a very long time correcting them every time it is re-posted. It just doesn't help in the larger discussion. Not trying to pick on you or Aka_mythos. Just want you to think about it from that angle.

As to the consequences? I suspect there won't be any, at least not on any grand scale. Nobody who had a mind to buy conversion kits ever opted not to just "Because Games Workshop says they're illegal". That means that the market for aftermarket bits isn't going to increase overnight as a result of this ruling. The market may increase as other competitors to CHS appear, releasing alternative aftermarket customization kits that appeal to new customers enough to convince them to start buying aftermarket stuff, but personally I don't think it'll boom.

In fact I know at least one Salamander player that bought Chapterhouse shoulder pads because GW was saying that they were illegal... (Then he bought some FW shoulder pads because he liked them.... He has both in his army.)

And whatever happens, it won't noticeably affect Games Workshop's sales - the aftermarket parts rely on the purchase of the initial GW minis in the first instance. I guess it's possible that GW might get more militant about recognisable CHS-outfitted models appearing in their stores and Warhammer World - it'd be petty, since it's the only way they can 'punish' the company and its customers now the case is over, but nothing I've seen out of GW's management suggests they're above being petty.

As I have said before - had GW played their cards right they could have used CH to help boost sales. Instead....

I can live in the fool's hope that it might convince GW to broaden its/Forgeworld's approach to customisation kits and bits, but I'm hardly gong to hold my breath on that.

Yeah... a fool's hope, but worth cherishing.

The One Million Dollar being bandied about seems a reasonable low end for the number of billable hours that we know about - and towards the end it looked like they were clamping down on further expenditures.

Likely a bit low, if anything, but it will do for educated comparisons.

As for the pro bono publico defense of CH... I remember talking to a lawyer that said that he generally put more effort into his pro bono cases - he was doing them because he enjoyed them... he considered them some of the few times that he really enjoyed the work. So... very hard to put a price sticker on it.

The Auld Grump

Do remember though that GW legal is on salary.

 Empchild wrote:
Do remember though that GW legal is on salary.

In house counsel might be on salary, but Foley and Lardner aren't.

We've talked about how GW should have handled this case, but this particular case, from Jack Daniel's no less, is perhaps the best example I've ever seen of using a cease-and-desist in a way that serves the best interests of all involved. The author gets to publish his book, and Jack Daniel's protects its trademarks.

 Empchild wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
I think there will be an impact if more bits companies start to mention GW trademarks and units as part of the compatibility text - the results will start to appear under searches for those trademarks.

This means more people will stumble upon the 3rd parties than before, where conversion kits had obtuse names to skirt around the issue.

In the bigger picture I think things will largely continue as normal, but the 3rd parties will gain ground slightly faster.

Yes and no, you see most of us third party designers really don't want to deal with law suits as not all of us are lucky enough to get pro-bono legal work. Honestly it's just easier to avoid the IP issue all together like many of us have and just create your own stuff that can be used for anything. If you focus on one specific market (even one as broad as GW) you are just hamstringing your self right out of the gate and even with this verdict GW will still sue people. Why deal with the hassle all together and just do things on your own. Look at Victoria Lamb even though her stuff is similar it's still original enough that she is fine legally. Heck a lot of the parts I produce I sit down with the sculptors and we insure we are not infringing on IP. You have to remember just because CH came out well does not always mean everyone else will as that's just how the U.S legal system works. Honestly several other much bigger companies received letters initially over infringement and they removed as it's just smart business because you have to decide is something worth the cost of the fight.

A fair point. Being fully legal and above board still doesn't mean you're safe from lawsuits.

Empchild wrote: it's just smart business because you have to decide is something worth the cost of the fight.

Which cuts both ways. I really do wonder if GW will consider the cost worthwhile once all the appeals are over; if there are any.

Horse stable door and bolted seem to spring to mind

http://careers.games-workshop.com/2013/06/19/procedural-protection-legal-assistant-maternity-cover-lenton-uk/#sthash.IKmlmcfz.dpbs

All though maternity leave seems to suggest they had someone who was in charge of registering trademarks oops

from the aforementioned career ad:

we believe that attitudes – such as honesty and integrity – are even more important than skills.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

 Hruotland wrote:
from the aforementioned career ad:

we believe that attitudes – such as honesty and integrity – are even more important than skills.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

I guess that puts skills way, way down on the list of important attributes, given the amazing levels of honesty and integrity we have seen from GW throughout this trial.

T

Does anyone see GW resculpting future marine releases with changed features that they could possible have copyrighted? How about attaching the shoulder pad to the arm and making it a single piece?

Considering that this decision is probably killing them, I can see all kinds of possibilities being tossed around in an attempt to get rid of third party producers.

Thoughts?

The decision isn't killing them. How can it kill GW for people to buy official space marine kits to put variant shoulder pads on?

If GW are losing money to 3rd party pad providers, the obvious solution is to make variant pads themselves.

On the other hand, if everyone starts using arrows and Roman numbers without paying copyright fees to GW, then GW is doomed

Or they start doing quality sculpts and marketing again

Do we have a link to a list of the specific charges and what the individual decisions were yet? Or are we still just shooting the breeze?

 Kroothawk wrote:

Or they start doing quality sculpts and marketing again

Oh, now you're being silly

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The decision isn't killing them. How can it kill GW for people to buy official space marine kits to put variant shoulder pads on?

If GW are losing money to 3rd party pad providers, the obvious solution is to make variant pads themselves.

I didn't mean killing them financially. I meant it in the "someone is allowed to use our original designs! Screw that!" way.

GW corporate is probably freaking out and finding things to change so they can go back to owning the everything they didn't create.
I am just curious what people think they may do to accomplish this.

Financially, this won't hurt GW at all. People will still buy, they will still go after the kiddies, and they will continue to raise their prices. The only people that are effected by this lawsuit are the 3rd party companies having some guidelines to work in.

Well, for what it's worth, I feel like CHS has been ripping off GW, but they have lots of cool things that I want, that GW haven't and probably won't get around to ever doing, e.g. Iron Snakes parts. I was happy to let the courts decide how I should interact with them as a company. I don't think GW did themselves a great service throughout the whole thing.

Did GW lose its copyright of the human skull over this?

I have evolved from totally agreeing with the fact that CH is taking the slash a little by just feeling that GW have a really pathetic whiny attitude to the whole affair.

CH stuff isn't actually that good, I bought plenty of their combi weapons because GW don't offer them, rather than piss about whinging and spending millions on lawyers, why not simply make some of their bloody own and flog them?!

Its a more proactive approach, and it would make them gak loads of cash, because I guarantee that if GW made the same bit of kit, it would be a slightly better piece of kit, price it the same, and profit. Instead of being pedantic, why not play CH at their own game? See what products they are making and match them with an alternative.

Their whole attitude is just really cringing and pathetic, and as a result I am pleased that they didn't get exactly what they wanted despite throwing crazy resources at the problem.

Shepherd23 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The decision isn't killing them. How can it kill GW for people to buy official space marine kits to put variant shoulder pads on?

If GW are losing money to 3rd party pad providers, the obvious solution is to make variant pads themselves.

I didn't mean killing them financially. I meant it in the "someone is allowed to use our original designs! Screw that!" way.

GW corporate is probably freaking out and finding things to change so they can go back to owning the everything they didn't create.
I am just curious what people think they may do to accomplish this.

Financially, this won't hurt GW at all. People will still buy, they will still go after the kiddies, and they will continue to raise their prices. The only people that are effected by this lawsuit are the 3rd party companies having some guidelines to work in.

I get you.

Yes, based on their apparent sense of entitlement, GW management are probably freaking out about it. They will have to adopt a policy that works according to the law.

 M4cr0Dutch wrote:
Well, for what it's worth, I feel like CHS has been ripping off GW, but they have lots of cool things that I want, that GW haven't and probably won't get around to ever doing, e.g. Iron Snakes parts. I was happy to let the courts decide how I should interact with them as a company. I don't think GW did themselves a great service throughout the whole thing.

With some of CH products, I agree that they overstepped. With most of the stuff, I do not believe that GW was being ripped off. GW chose to get rid of bitz, they chose not to make what people wanted and they chose to make sub par vehicles that people hated.

GW created the 3rd party producers. Period. They either need to learn to coexist or actually make stuff that their customers want. It is completely their own fault that they are in this situation now.

And as you said, CH may not produce the best looking stuff, but people will buy it because it works. GW believing otherwise is foolish.

 mattyrm wrote:
I have evolved from totally agreeing with the fact that CH is taking the slash a little by just feeling that GW have a really pathetic whiny attitude to the whole affair.

CH stuff isn't actually that good, I bought plenty of their combi weapons because GW don't offer them, rather than piss about whinging and spending millions on lawyers, why not simply make some of their bloody own and flog them?!

Haha yes, I think most people are probably thinking the same thing to be honest.

 mattyrm wrote:
I have evolved from totally agreeing with the fact that CH is taking the slash a little by just feeling that GW have a really pathetic whiny attitude to the whole affair.

CH stuff isn't actually that good, I bought plenty of their combi weapons because GW don't offer them, rather than piss about whinging and spending millions on lawyers, why not simply make some of their bloody own and flog them?!

Its a more proactive approach, and it would make them gak loads of cash, because I guarantee that if GW made the same bit of kit, it would be a slightly better piece of kit, price it the same, and profit. Instead of being pedantic, why not play CH at their own game? See what products they are making and match them with an alternative.

Their whole attitude is just really cringing and pathetic, and as a result I am pleased that they didn't get exactly what they wanted despite throwing crazy resources at the problem.

In a small defense of GW, they did try, they just failed to do it in a way that was consumer friendly. Not that being consumer friendly is really in their wheelhouse these days.

They put out a weapon pack that had one of each Combi-weapon (with a silly look to the Combi-Flamer and Combi-plasma), plus a heavy bolter, heavy flamer, and pair of lightning claws. Put a $13.50 GW.com exclusive price on it and called it a day.