Snowden Strikes Again - Against Brits

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Jihadin**

China government does not have a good track record in dealing with protests and demonstrations.

**Alfndrate**

Jihadin wrote:
China government does not have a good track record in dealing with protests and demonstrations.

Nah! Everything looks hunky dory and even keeled!

**Seaward**

The Russia layover doesn't make any sense. No way Snowden thinks he can actually walk onto a plane to Cuba without Putin personally downloading everything he's carrying. If it's all on some server somewhere, encrypted to the nth degree, they're still likely going to get it out of him. He also allowed every CIA employee in Moscow to pick up his trail. I suspect you could've had a fun time in Sheremetyevo when that plane from Hong Kong landed simply trying to spot legitimate passengers in the terminal in the midst of all the CIA and FSB guys.

**Jihadin**

I remember that guy lol

I also remember

I also remember some here thinking the US Military can do the same thing

**Velour_Fog**

Well, since he's likely aware he's never going back to his country (a free man, anyway) he might want to make some money out of what he knows. I doubt they could threaten anything out of him since it'd look highly suspicious if he "disappeared" while he's still news.

**KalashnikovMarine**

He's been reported going to several places now, if Snowden's smart he's feeding misinformation out and buying ridiculous amounts of plane tickets everywhere to at least muddy the waters a little bit. Iceland seems like the best run for him so far, the key is getting there while avoiding a fair chunk of Europe.

**azazel the cat**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:He's been reported going to several places now, if Snowden's smart he's feeding misinformation out and buying ridiculous amounts of plane tickets everywhere to at least muddy the waters a little bit. Iceland seems like the best run for him so far, the key is getting there while avoiding a fair chunk of Europe.

if it were me, I'd have converted to Judaism first and obtained an Israeli passport.

**Dreadclaw69**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
He's been reported going to several places now, if Snowden's smart he's feeding misinformation out and buying ridiculous amounts of plane tickets everywhere to at least muddy the waters a little bit. Iceland seems like the best run for him so far, the key is getting there while avoiding a fair chunk of Europe.

Russia and then fly over the Arctic and hope nothing freezes?

**Monster Rain**

The drones will find him eventually, wherever he goes.

**KalashnikovMarine**

azazel the cat wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:He's been reported going to several places now, if Snowden's smart he's feeding misinformation out and buying ridiculous amounts of plane tickets everywhere to at least muddy the waters a little bit. Iceland seems like the best run for him so far, the key is getting there while avoiding a fair chunk of Europe.

if it were me, I'd have converted to Judaism first and obtained an Israeli passport.

He could probably cut a nice deal with Mossad now.

**Jihadin**

I really really hope we didn't really "demand" Russia for them to turn over Snowden....I'm sure we be awhile getting an answer back from them if we did....we have to give them time to recover from the laughter...

**sebster**

Alfndrate wrote:
Does anyone else find it a little ironic/coincidental that the Chinese citizens are protesting the snooping of a government?

Not really. Chinese politics is way weirder that people in the West realise. Add in the complexities of Hong Kong and it gets even crazier.

**Jihadin**

People still think Hong Kong is separate from Beijing, China. Beijing played it out nicely by taking their sweet time and having Snowden probably think he was going to get extradited to the US. So when he popped smoke out, CHina literally passed a "hot potato"

**sebster**

azazel the cat wrote:
if it were me, I'd have converted to Judaism first and obtained an Israeli passport.

While it'd be great for the comedy, the right of return isn't available to converts. You have to have Jewish ancestry, or be married to a Jew.

**Jihadin**

We find out what country he works for yet? For the "traitor" title to really apply....

**sebster**

And I'm still waiting to see if Seaward thinks Sun Yat-Sen was a coward.... For some reason I suspect that little piece of weirdness will never get resolved.

Jihadin wrote:
People still think Hong Kong is separate from Beijing, China. Beijing played it out nicely by taking their sweet time and having Snowden probably think he was going to get extradited to the US. So when he popped smoke out, CHina literally passed a "hot potato"

Well, according to Beijing, it still kind of is. It's still a special economic zone, and there's a stupidly large number of special rules that seem to do nothing but annoy people.

But yeah, on matters like this Beijing is definitely the ones deciding what happens, and their final decision to let him go was letting someone else have the problem.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
We find out what country he works for yet? For the "traitor" title to really apply....

Is is possible to betray your country for the sake of an ideology? I mean, either by the legal use of term traitor, or by people's common understanding of the term?

**Jihadin**

I don't blame Beijing for not literally interfering in Hong Kong affairs. Logistic circle Hong Kong is a "Perfect Pearl" meaning that Hong Kong has trade that reaches everywhere and it makes serious serious serious MONEY

**azazel the cat**

sebster wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
if it were me, I'd have converted to Judaism first and obtained an Israeli passport.

While it'd be great for the comedy, the right of return isn't available to converts. You have to have Jewish ancestry, or be married to a Jew.

Really? I could've sworn that in the early 1990s a bunch of Russian bankers (mobsters) coverted to Judaism so that they could move to Israel and be completely protected from extradition. Huh. I guess the joke would've been on me, then.

**KalashnikovMarine**

sebster wrote:

Is is possible to betray your country for the sake of an ideology? I mean, either by the legal use of term traitor, or by people's common understanding of the term?

Sebs are you really asking that? Especially considering the examples in America recently of U.S. citizens murdering both their fellow soldiers and fellow citizens in the name of ideology? Whether it's political or religious ideology is a strong motivating factor in the stuff we do as human beings in general. Here's a general explanation of the motivations for espionage/treason.

Motivations for Espionage/Treason:
Money
Ideology (usually gived the addenum: ", patriotism, religion. Malik Hasan is a perfect example of this kind of traitor.)
Coercion
Ego/Self Importance

This completes the "MICE" acronym which is pretty much the go to for picking out motivations.

Other additions to the motivations chart outside of the big four are Excitement, Disaffection/Grudges (I'd argue this fits in under ego, Bradely Manning is a solid example) Personal relations, and of course the darling of the HUMINT game (or at least public fantasies about how that kind of thing works) sex, which was particularly popular with the old USSR, utilizing female agents refered to as "Swallows" (the bird you pervs). Like Disaffection and Grudges fitting under or at least tangentially to Ego, I would argue sex and personal relationships would be connected to or fit under the "coercion" heading in MICE.

**sebster**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Sebs are you really asking that?

No, it was rhetorical. Well, it was meant to be read as rhetorical. But in writing it I thought of expanding out in to a second point, on the difference between legal and common use of the term, and in doing so I think my post ended up reading as something that wasn't clearly rhetorical.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
I don't blame Beijing for not literally interfering in Hong Kong affairs. Logistic circle Hong Kong is a "Perfect Pearl" meaning that Hong Kong has trade that reaches everywhere and it makes serious serious serious MONEY

Yeah, that's why they kept it seperate to the rest of China, as a special economic zone, to leave it alone to continue making loads of money.

But time has a way of creating events that chip away at that independance. Stuff like this Snowden thing, and criminal activity in Hong Kong that impacts China. All little reasons to muddy the theoretically clean division between China and Hong Kong.

**KalashnikovMarine**

An interesting thought from Dr. Paul.

Is this really espionage? If not what potential crime has Snowden committed? I suppose this goes back into the legal, textbook and common use definitions of espionage, and since Snowden did provide information to foreign newspapers the case could be made that he committed espionage via passing classified material to foreign hands....

**Da Boss**

Hah, for once Ron Paul has said something that I found a little insightful!

**Seaward**

He might have a point if Snowden had only shared a gakload of classified material exclusively with Americans, rather than with everybody in the world. We can probably assume there are some enemies somewhere on the planet.

**Jihadin**

What Manning was hit with. Snowden going to look different being he doesn't fall under UCMJ

Listed by alleged code violation[edit]

The charges can be broken down as follows:
UCMJ 104 (Aiding the enemy): 1 count. This charge carries a potential death penalty.
UCMJ 92 (Failure to obey a lawful order or regulation): 9 counts. Mostly related to computers.[2][3] Army Regulation 25-2, para. 4-6(k): Forbids transferring classified info to non-secure systems
Army Regulation 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(3): Modifying or installing unauthorized software to a system, using it for 'unintended' purposes.
Army Regulation 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(4): Circumventing security mechanisms
Army Regulation 380-5: Improper storage of Classified Information

UCMJ 134 (General article): 24 counts. Most of these counts incorporate civilian statutes from the United States Code: 18 U.S.C. § 641: Embezzlement and Theft of Public Money, Property or Records. The government has claimed that various sets of records that Manning transferred were 'things of value' and has thus charged him under this statute.
18 U.S.C. § 793(e): This is part of the Espionage Act. The law forbids 'unauthorized persons' from taking 'national defense' information and either 'retaining' it or delivering it to 'persons not entitled to receive it'. The terminology is rather complicated and often contested in court. 793(e) exists because the McCarran Internal Security Act of 1950 modified the original 1917 Espionage Act, partly because of the Alger Hiss/Pumpkin papers case. It is also the same law used against Daniel Ellsberg and Anthony Russo in the Pentagon papers case.[4][5]
18 U.S.C. § 1030(a) 1 & 2: These are from the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986. 1030(a)(1) is sometimes called the 'Computer Espionage' law as it borrows much of its language from the Espionage Act. It was modified by the USA Patriot Act of 2001, which added it to the 'Federal Crimes of Terrorism' list, as well as making it prosecutable under RICO (Racketeering) law.[6]

Total number of counts: 34

Listed by document[edit]

Most of Manning's charges are directly related to the alleged transferral of a specific document to another party. These documents are as follows:
The 2007 July 12 Baghdad video
various groups of US State Department cables, unclassified and classified
The "Reykjavik 13" US State Department cable
Records from the CIDNEI database
Records from the CIDNEA database
A Microsoft PowerPoint presentation
Records from a US Southern Command database
Files "BE22 PAX.zip" and "BE22 PAX.wmv".
United States Forces – Iraq email address list
a record from United States Army Intelligence and Security Command[clarification needed]
A memorandum from an intelligence agency

The media has alleged that many of these documents are the same as documents published by Wikileaks, including:
The July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike ("Collateral Murder" video
United States diplomatic cables leak
The Reykjavic 13 cable
Iraq War documents leak (CIDNEI)[7]
Afghan War documents leak (CIDNEA)[7]
Granai airstrike video (BE22 PAX) (alleged by Wired and Marcy Wheeler)[8][9]

Listed in the order given on the charge sheets[edit]

First set of charges (2010)[edit]

The first set of charges came on July 5, 2010. The Specifications (Spec.) are listed below in the same order as they are listed on the charge sheets. To the right of each specification is a description of the related documents or actions.[10]

Charge 1: Violation of UCMJ Article 92 (Failure to obey a lawful order or regulation)[edit]
Spec. 1: Army Reg. 25-2, para. 4-6(k): The 2007 July 12 Baghdad video
Spec. 2: Army Reg. 25-2, para. 4-6(k): 50 classified US Dept of State cables
Spec. 3: Army Reg. 25-2, para. 4-6(k): A classified Microsoft Office PowerPoint presentation
Spec. 4: Army Reg. 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(3): Adding unauthorized software to SIPRNet

Charge 2: Violation of UCMJ Article 134 (General article)[edit]
Spec. 1: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): The 2007 July 12 Baghdad video
Spec. 2: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(1): The 2007 July 12 Baghdad video
Spec. 3: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(1): The classified US State Dept Cable named "Reykjavik 13"
Spec. 4: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(1): 50 classified US State Dept cables
Spec. 5: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(2): The 2007 July 12 Baghdad video
Spec. 6: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(2): The classified US State Dept Cable named "Reykjavik 13"
Spec. 7: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(2): 150,000 diplomatic cables
Spec. 8: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(2): A classified Microsoft Office PowerPoint presentation

Second set of charges (2011)[edit]

The second set of charges came on March 1, 2011, and are as follows:[11]

Additional Charge 1: Violation of UCMJ Article 104 (Aiding the enemy)[edit]
Spec. 1: Knowingly giving intelligence to the enemy through indirect means

Additional Charge 2: Violation of UCMJ Article 134 (General article)[edit]
Spec. 1: (statute not given): Causing intelligence to be published, knowing that it is accessible to the enemy
Spec. 2: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): A file named "12 JUL 07 CZ ENGAGEMENT ZONE 30 GC Anyone.avi"
Spec. 3: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): Memorandi from a US intelligence agency
Spec. 4: 18 U.S.C. § 641: 380,000 records from the CIDNEI database
Spec. 5: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): >20 records from the CIDNEI database
Spec. 6: 18 U.S.C. § 641: >90,000 records from the CIDNEA database
Spec. 7: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): >20 records from the CIDNEA database
Spec. 8: 18 U.S.C. § 641: >700 records from a US Southern Command database
Spec. 9: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): >3 records from a US Southern Command database
Spec. 10: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): >5 records relating to an operation in Farah Province, Afghanistan
Spec. 11: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): The files "BE22 PAX.zip" and "BE22 PAX.wmv"
Spec. 12: 18 U.S.C. § 641: 250,000 records from the State Dept Net-Centric Diplomacy database
Spec. 13: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(1): >75 US State Dept cables
Spec. 14: 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(1): The State Dept cable named "Reykjavik-13"
Spec. 15: 18 U.S.C. § 793(e): A record of a US Army Intelligence organization
Spec. 16: 18 U.S.C. § 641: The US Forces - Iraq Microsoft Outlook / SharePoint Exchange Server global address list

Additional Charge 3: Violation of UCMJ Article 92 (Failure to obey a lawful order or regulation)[edit]
Spec. 1: Army Reg. 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(4): Bypassing security mechanisms
Spec. 2: Army Reg. 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(3): Adding unauthorized software to a SIPRNet computer
Spec. 3: Army Reg. 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(3): Adding unauthorized software to a SIPRNet computer
Spec. 4: Army Reg. 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(3): Using an information system for other than its intended purpose
Spec. 5: Army Reg. 380-5, para. 7-4: Wrongfully storing classified information

**Da Boss**

Seaward wrote:
He might have a point if Snowden had only shared a gakload of classified material exclusively with Americans, rather than with everybody in the world. We can probably assume there are some enemies somewhere on the planet.

How can someone share information with the public without it also being shared internationally? It's impossible in such an interconnected world.

The US government has no right to create such a database nor any right to keep it hidden.

I expect you to descend into condescending legalism in the next few posts, enjoy yourself, but do it too often and you may go blind.

**Seaward**

Da Boss wrote:
How can someone share information with the public without it also being shared internationally? It's impossible in such an interconnected world.

Yes. Which is why we classify stuff.

I ask this question in all seriousness: is this just entitlement generation mentality writ large? Entertainment should be free, information should be unrestricted, I should be able to find out whatever I want no matter how dangerous the information might be in the wrong hands?

I expect you to descend into condescending legalism in the next few posts, enjoy yourself, but do it too often and you may go blind.

Condescension, absolutely. Legalism's not even really needed any more. There's zero question about the legality of Snowden's actions.

**Velour_Fog**

Russia's foreign minister says he hasn't crossed the Russian border.

**sebster**

Seaward wrote:
I ask this question in all seriousness: is this just entitlement generation mentality writ large? Entertainment should be free, information should be unrestricted, I should be able to find out whatever I want no matter how dangerous the information might be in the wrong hands?

Trying to frame whether the public should or shouldn't know about PRISM as entitlement? That's just weird.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:
Really? I could've sworn that in the early 1990s a bunch of Russian bankers (mobsters) coverted to Judaism so that they could move to Israel and be completely protected from extradition. Huh. I guess the joke would've been on me, then.

Well, you have to have Jewish ancestry, and not be practicing any other religion (a non-practicing Jew is fine, but a Jew who converted to another religion is not). So they might have had Jewish ancestry (or sufficient contacts to make it look like they had Jewish ancestry), but have been otherwise members of some other religion. Converting back to Judaism might then be necessary, I guess.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

White house says America will follow all legal channels and respect the rule of law in its attempts to get their hands on Snowden...

I, for one, am grateful that Snowden revealed to the British public the extent of spying that goes on in the UK. It's getting that I'm waiting for the government to give me permission to wipe my ass, such is the intrusion of the government on UK society!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
An interesting thought from Dr. Paul.

Is this really espionage? If not what potential crime has Snowden committed? I suppose this goes back into the legal, textbook and common use definitions of espionage, and since Snowden did provide information to foreign newspapers the case could be made that he committed espionage via passing classified material to foreign hands....

Could have embarrassing diplomatic repercussions as well, given that a UK newspaper broke the story, and Britain is considered a 'friend' and not an 'enemy.' My calendar says that it's 2013, not 1813!

**Alfndrate**

Britain is always the enemy, this is just the long war

.

But seriously, I think this whole thing is a gak storm, and I honestly don't see how the government couldn't follow all legal channels with this. If he gets caught, 2 things might happen.
1) Some weird level of action movie gun fight goes down, and Snowden is killed during the ensuing firefight. The press gets wind of this, and all news stations immediately start to question why were things not done peacefully.
2) Snowden is captured and the news media gets wind of this, and sees him being taken away, or covers the story until such a time as people lose interest, though I doubt people would lose interest in such a case.

Edit: For clarification and spellingz