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pantsonhead wrote:
But Tank Hunters is one of those "a unit that contains at least one model" rules.

Ahh, that makes sense then.

Wow, pretty devastating unit then.

pantsonhead wrote:
I assume that two of the Broadsides have target locks. Maybe all three. The Puretide chip lets you give everything in the unit Tank Hunters, so you do benefit quite a bit from it.

*Sigh* More reason to take Hunters, I guess.

All 3. So 4 Targets possible. I usually prescience the squad so the Drones will usually get 6-7 hits, then ~9 for the Broadsides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The broadsides also move and fire better than folks think. With an ethereal around they can snapfire after running if need be. Markers can boost snap shots if they move.. etc. It is very harsh on vehicles. Removing their save completely is gross.

I think a solid counter to waveserpents is... MORE WAVESERPENTS!

Seriously, S7 ignores cover? no jink saves for you, and I will glance them down.

 Exergy wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

These WS are not nearly as powerful as Tri-Falcon Holo's were in 4th.

what is?

Helldrakes.

Belly wrote:
I think a solid counter to waveserpents is... MORE WAVESERPENTS!

Seriously, S7 ignores cover? no jink saves for you, and I will glance them down.

Yeah, Eldar-on-Eldar fights are going to be BRUTAL.

 LValx wrote:

Commander - Puretide chip, Multi spectrum, Iridium armor
3 Broadsides - HYMP, SMS, 6 Drones.

On average that unit will remove about 3 AV12 vehicles a turn. It is also incredibly durable and difficult for Eldar players to remove.

Even if they all shoot different targets (which you're not mentioning in their gear), they do not average killing three AV12 vehicles a turn. Not even close.

I'm not bashing missile sides, but be realistic.

Markerlights let Tau counter them pretty nicely.
Stupid markerlights.

Tomb Kings have those annoying spider things that spawn those even more annoying little spider things.. And glance to death with standard gauss weapons.

Other Eldar laugh as their Dark Reapers with upgraded rockets mulch anything with a jink save.

Guard have some of the most stupidly overpoweredHEROIC AND INVINCIBLE AS BEFITS THE HAMMER OF THE EMPEROR options for dealing with Eldar (wave serpent or otherwise) at range in the game, many of which are barrage and therefore laugh at cover saves.

You know barrage does not ignore cover. IG is actually an army waveserpent spam should be pretty good against.

eje005 wrote:
Apart from rifleman dreadnought spam, there's no high shots str 7+ in the book. And if I'm taking those auto cannons my list is going to be ineffective against anything but Eldar and Ork Trukks.

Ok, let's see...


Troops:

Tac squad with plasma, combi-plasma, multi-melta.
That's 4 str7 shots and 1 str 8 shot for first shooting, and then 2 str7 shots and 1 str8 shot after that. Plus you can get them an assault cannon razorback, that has str6 rending shots.

Elite:

You already mentioned rifleman dreadnought so there is that, and also sternguard, with 2 plasma and the rest can take combi-plasma. That's plenty of str7 shots.

Fast attack:

You said that you take deep striking Land speeders. IMO better option would be to take 3 Attack bikes with multi-meltas. That's 3 str8 shots per unit of bikes. Also you could be taking Storm Talons, probably the best choise here!

Heavy support:

HS has devastators, but they are kinda overpriced in vanilla codex. Instead you could take Predators with lascannons for 2 str7 shots and 2 str9 shots. Also you could be taking more rifleman dreads here with MotF.



There are plenty of high shots str7+ shooting in the book.

 Sasori wrote:

 RedAngel wrote:
Most of you probably weren't around in 4th. This is just a verbatim repeat of the last codex release. Wildly overpowered WSs that can't be killed, deploying bucket loads of fire dragons. Only after an edition change or a bunch of FAQs will the SWs come back down from the forge world heights of OP cheese.

These WS are not nearly as powerful as Tri-Falcon Holo's were in 4th.

Indeed, Falcons were almost indestructible at that time. The new Serpents come not even close.
Nevertheless, the new Serpents are hard to deal with for most armies out there.

I don't get it. Killing a wave serpent from the front is virtually identical to killing a W3 T8 monstrous creature with a 4++.

Certainly if you can handle riptides, you can handle wave serpents.

 ansacs wrote:
You know barrage does not ignore cover. IG is actually an army waveserpent spam should be pretty good against.

not all cover, it depends on where the blast lands right? which means it would work on a vehicle with shroud/stealth/jink ect. Unless I missed that rule change.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Commander - Puretide chip, Multi spectrum, Iridium armor
3 Broadsides - HYMP, SMS, 6 Drones.

On average that unit will remove about 3 AV12 vehicles a turn. It is also incredibly durable and difficult for Eldar players to remove.

Even if they all shoot different targets (which you're not mentioning in their gear), they do not average killing three AV12 vehicles a turn. Not even close.

I'm not bashing missile sides, but be realistic.

Read my next post. I take target locks. So 12 shots tl bs 3 yields 9 str. 7 hits. 12 shots tl bs2 yields 6-8. Lets Say 15 str.7 hits. Thats 5 results, 10 rerolls. Those 10 yield 3 more. Thats 8 pen/glance vs av12 that ignore cover. It can deviate, but so far it usually kills at least 2 and ive gotten 3 more than half the time.

 LValx wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Commander - Puretide chip, Multi spectrum, Iridium armor
3 Broadsides - HYMP, SMS, 6 Drones.

On average that unit will remove about 3 AV12 vehicles a turn. It is also incredibly durable and difficult for Eldar players to remove.

Even if they all shoot different targets (which you're not mentioning in their gear), they do not average killing three AV12 vehicles a turn. Not even close.

I'm not bashing missile sides, but be realistic.

Read my next post. I take target locks. So 12 shots tl bs 3 yields 9 str. 7 hits. 12 shots tl bs2 yields 6-8. Lets Say 15 str.7 hits. Thats 5 results, 10 rerolls. Those 10 yield 3 more. Thats 8 pen/glance vs av12 that ignore cover. It can deviate, but so far it usually kills at least 2 and ive gotten 3 more than half the time.

How are you allocating what to fire? Are you firing on 4 targets or 3?

All drones have to fire on one target, so what do Broadsides fire on? One fires the same target as drones and the other fire different targets, or what?

You have to decide what each member fires before firing, so how are you averaging 3 destroyed AV12 vehicles?

I'm kind of surprised how much response this thread has gotten since I guess I'm not the only one facing this already.

Interesting that pretty much everyone agrees that old SM builds of high power weapons is dead in the waters basically. I guess I'm not imagining it after all.

 Marsyas wrote:
Markerlights let Tau counter them pretty nicely.
Stupid markerlights.

Tomb Kings have those annoying spider things that spawn those even more annoying little spider things.. And glance to death with standard gauss weapons.

Other Eldar laugh as their Dark Reapers with upgraded rockets mulch anything with a jink save.

Guard have some of the most stupidly overpoweredHEROIC AND INVINCIBLE AS BEFITS THE HAMMER OF THE EMPEROR options for dealing with Eldar (wave serpent or otherwise) at range in the game, many of which are barrage and therefore laugh at cover saves.

You obviously do not know what are you talking about...

I'm sure helldrakes will find those serpents entertaining, Vectorstrikes glance on a 6 then flame in the back and glance again on a 5.

Necrons will have enough shots to not care about the coversaves, neither will my 3 units of wraiths when that serpent comes to close...

 Valek wrote:
I'm sure helldrakes will find those serpents entertaining, Vectorstrikes glance on a 6 then flame in the back and glance again on a 5.

Necrons will have enough shots to not care about the coversaves, neither will my 3 units of wraiths when that serpent comes to close...

Well, isn't vector strike S7 ?
Necron Wraiths are difficult to remove by Eldar expecially when you field 15 or so.

 minigun762 wrote:
Three Hadesfiends should be able to kill one per turn not counting daemonforge and assuming a 4+ cover save.

Three WS will kill a Forgefiend in one turn if they use the shield.

Three Drakes will kill a WS in one turn with vector strikes.

dont forget daemon forge. Helps the FF with burst damage


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valek wrote:
I'm sure helldrakes will find those serpents entertaining, Vectorstrikes glance on a 6 then flame in the back and glance again on a 5.

Necrons will have enough shots to not care about the coversaves, neither will my 3 units of wraiths when that serpent comes to close...

Heldrakes will glance on a 5, pen on a 6 with their VS
If they hit rear armor with the flamer, glance on a 4, pen on 5, 6.
If the flamer hits side armor, glance on a 6.

6th edition made CC a hard counter to tanks. To handle wave serpents you need to charge them or shoot then in the rear armour.

A wave serpent rush to get your Fire Fragons and D-scythe Wraith into range for next turn is still difficult to pull off correctly, as you have to be careful of enemy assault ranges.
Spamming WSs with min size DA squads to stay at range is when they can seem unreasonable, but who would be so dull!

 Valek wrote:
I'm sure helldrakes will find those serpents entertaining, Vectorstrikes glance on a 6 then flame in the back and glance again on a 5.

Necrons will have enough shots to not care about the coversaves, neither will my 3 units of wraiths when that serpent comes to close...

Serpent spam is more likely to find helldrakes entertaining, you didnt think that through.

15 rapid firing necrons will do about 1.5HP to a wave serpent. Anni Barges would be helpful though. Wriaths, like any decent CC unit, will work.

I would suggest hive guard, but Wave Serpents can butcher hive guard frighteningly easily due to their large number of AP4 or better high strength shots and superior range.

 Kain wrote:
I would suggest hive guard, but Wave Serpents can butcher hive guard frighteningly easily due to their large number of AP4 or better high strength shots and superior range.

No, Hive Guard is the best bet. I faced (6 to 8) Hive Guard rather often in the 5th ed with my mech Eldar and Nids always had a hard time.

 Kain wrote:
I would suggest hive guard, but Wave Serpents can butcher hive guard frighteningly easily due to their large number of AP4 or better high strength shots and superior range.

If Serpents are throwing lots of AP4 around you someone is cheating. At most they can put out 2 AP2 shots from Starcannons (or one AP2 from Bright Lances or AP3 from missiles). By far the most common loadout is a Scatter Laser with a Shuriken Cannon, so you're talking 4 AP6, 3 AP5 shots, plus d6+1 AP- shots.

Sure they're all S6+, but unless you're dealing with orks, guardsmen, or gaunts, everything pretty much gets a standard armor save against it.

Just because no one has pointed it out yet- Footdar absolutely wrecks Mechdar head to head.

Wraithknights can catch (or at least corral) them.

Reapers can swat down Prisms with ease and Serpents without too much effort.

Minimum Warp Spider squads (and what foot player isn't taking at least two units of those?) can DS in for 10 S7 shots on rear armor.

Jetbikes are fast enough to boost behind them turn one, forcing the serpents to either turn around (suicide), target the bikes with turret guns only (inefficient), or accept S6 shots to the rear (risky).



A good Footdar list can put credible S6+ shooting threats on all four board edges by the end of turn two. Once the Serpents have no "safe" facing for their rear armor, they start dropping like flies.

With a combination of DS and Outflank other armies may be able to replicate this technique effectively.

For 'Nilla Marines, perhaps a CML Tac Termie squad could anchor the opposing board edge. Drop into the rear arc of a Fire Dragon Serpent to get them out early, then shred the dragons with other shooting. A MM Attack Bike or Bike Squad could boost up each board edge to anchor the corners, preferably behind any terrain that happens to be available. To hold the short edges, just run up a Rhino or a Razorback with an appropriately armed (Plas/MM or Plas/ML) Tac Squad inside. Anchor your own edge with a selection of firepower units, perhaps a few AC/LC Preds, and see what happens. That selection of units should also function as a relatively decent TAC list, and doesn't have any horrible unit selections in it.

Worth trying, I'd think.

 Magc8Ball wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I would suggest hive guard, but Wave Serpents can butcher hive guard frighteningly easily due to their large number of AP4 or better high strength shots and superior range.

If Serpents are throwing lots of AP4 around you someone is cheating. At most they can put out 2 AP2 shots from Starcannons (or one AP2 from Bright Lances or AP3 from missiles). By far the most common loadout is a Scatter Laser with a Shuriken Cannon, so you're talking 4 AP6, 3 AP5 shots, plus d6+1 AP- shots.

Sure they're all S6+, but unless you're dealing with orks, guardsmen, or gaunts, everything pretty much gets a standard armor save against it.

I should learn to ask people to show their codices some day. At this rate somebody's going to try and tell me a Fortress of Redemption doesn't cost points.

 chorde wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You know barrage does not ignore cover. IG is actually an army waveserpent spam should be pretty good against.

not all cover, it depends on where the blast lands right? which means it would work on a vehicle with shroud/stealth/jink ect. Unless I missed that rule change.

It has no effect on jink. None on WS in fact as side AV 12.

 chorde wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You know barrage does not ignore cover. IG is actually an army waveserpent spam should be pretty good against.

not all cover, it depends on where the blast lands right?

It does not matter where the blast lands, it always hits the side.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 chorde wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You know barrage does not ignore cover. IG is actually an army waveserpent spam should be pretty good against.

not all cover, it depends on where the blast lands right?

It does not matter where the blast lands, it always hits the side.

I had a guy claim that barrage weapons ignored all cover except for area terrain.

 ansacs wrote:
You know barrage does not ignore cover. IG is actually an army waveserpent spam should be pretty good against.

IG players should consider getting their 5th edition Hydras back out of storage. 75 pts for 4 twin-linked AC shots (using normal BS) that ignores jink saves is still a bargain.

Only if they only play necron flyer and eldar skimmer armies.