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It's efficient for rooting out a unit that is largely depending on cover, like say...a guard infantry squad of some sort in an ADL. Naturally though, I'm not sure that's the best example because if you drop your shields you can get pretty pwned provided the enemy has a gunline of some sort.


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And if you twin-link it with a Scatter laser (which you should really use, along with a Shuriken cannon as your other purchased weapon) it has a decent shot.

For some armies (like Da Orks) cover makes our armies viable. Otherwise, Lootas get massacred and Wagons/Boyz approaching get whittled at distance. The whole manoeuvre part of the game becomes nearly irrelevant when cover saves aren't viable.

As a follow on question to this discussion, what do you guys think will be the best things to toss into a wave serpent?

Cheapo Dire avenger squads to have more wave serpents

or

very killy fire dragons in wave serpents?

or the other generalist but ultra killy but expensive wraithguards with stuff like D.scythes and D. cannons? (but you will have far fewer wave serpents)

Guardians or Wraithguard in general seem to be playing the best.

Probably you need stuff to handle what the Wave Serpents can't. That, in turn, depends on your turret choices, at least to a degree.

And there is still the issue of having to get out of the transport in order to score. Unlike a Night Scythe, Troops in Wave Serpents can't move 42" on the last turn & still claim an objective. So at least some resilience might be useful.

I'm starting with relatively few Serpents, in favor of a couple squads of (Troop) Wraithguard.

 iGuy91 wrote:
With my patented telecrons list, you can drop 2-3 wave serpents turn 1!


Its gimmicky, but a heck of a lot of fun to play!

But the telecrons will hardly withstand the return fire.

 Titan Atlas wrote:
It's efficient for rooting out a unit that is largely depending on cover, like say...a guard infantry squad of some sort in an ADL. Naturally though, I'm not sure that's the best example because if you drop your shields you can get pretty pwned provided the enemy has a gunline of some sort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you twin-link it with a Scatter laser (which you should really use, along with a Shuriken cannon as your other purchased weapon) it has a decent shot.

Yeah but still, that's not going to do much damage compared to the defensive bonus it provides.

Fairly confident we've been over that fact ad nauseum though

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Titan Atlas wrote:
It's efficient for rooting out a unit that is largely depending on cover, like say...a guard infantry squad of some sort in an ADL. Naturally though, I'm not sure that's the best example because if you drop your shields you can get pretty pwned provided the enemy has a gunline of some sort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you twin-link it with a Scatter laser (which you should really use, along with a Shuriken cannon as your other purchased weapon) it has a decent shot.

Yeah but still, that's not going to do much damage compared to the defensive bonus it provides.

It's highly situational.

If I am facing bugs or GKs with their 24-30" threat range for shooting...heck yeah I am going to shoot and stay out of their range the whole time.

Oh its Tau and theyre going to glance me into oblivion anyways and deny my 4+ cover? SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT

IG wih lascannon spam, shield up!

SW Long fangs...SHIELD

The beauty is in the choosing


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 Titan Atlas wrote:
ad nauseum

Great vernacular!

Dakka's a great place to be pretentious with one's latin haha

and yeah, agreed, if I'm staring down markerlights and have a shot at getting rid of some and thus reducing the chances of losing my cover, I'd consider taking it. It's pinning, if I remember correctly, so that'll help if nothing else.

Mhmm, it's definitely situational. Little/no chance of getting shot this turn? A bit of extra Dakka doesn't hurt.

I think Guardians are the best Serpent passengers. BUT I do think DA have a place if you are trying to maximize the amount of serpents. I mean, at 1850 you can actually fit 7 Serpents, 2 Prisms and a Spinner. Thats enough to make most opponents cry as soon as they see you set-up.

 sudojoe wrote:
With the changes to the shield as well as 4+ cover saves in the open along with being fast and AV12... not to mention twin linked goodness all around or ridiculously cheap lances (come on the upgrade guns are crazy cheap, I'd have to pay so much more for a razorback las cannon)

Markerlights. They'll erase cover save, and allow rail guns, heavy rail rifles, fusion guns, and even missile pods and ion weapons to have a fair chance at cracking it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
As I deal with any vehicle in the game...
Gauss
Heheh

Sadly, their weapons greatly out range ours. That 60" range is absurd. Even the 3rd ed monolith didn't have something that ludicrous.

That said, anni barges may be a good counter. They do churn out a lot of S7 shots. I'm tempted to throw down a monolith as well, just to teleport the warriors a bit closer.

BtW, what's with all of the 1850 lists? The last 3 games I played on vassal were all 1850pts.

I suppose its just a good tournament point value.

As for Gauss, a unit of Destroyers is 10 gauss shots. Heavy Destroyers is S9 gauss. Glancing wave serpents to death is the best way to deal with them, I think. Each roll of 6 takes off a hull point. Combined with any Gauss Immortals and warriors and especially the stormtek haywire unit, that's a lot of dead vehicles.

Yeah I think Necrons with Scythes + a haywire cryptek in each unit of warriors will be a great way to deal with serpents compared to what most other codices have available. However, I still think it'd be an uphill battle. Serpents are absolutely brutal. I think the shield is just a bit too good. Maybe a 3+ to ignore would have been a bit more fair.

 McNinja wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BtW, what's with all of the 1850 lists? The last 3 games I played on vassal were all 1850pts.

I suppose its just a good tournament point value.

Since when hasn't 1850 been the standard competitive point level?

 ductvader wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BtW, what's with all of the 1850 lists? The last 3 games I played on vassal were all 1850pts.

I suppose its just a good tournament point value.

Since when hasn't 1850 been the standard competitive point level?

There have been a lot of 2,000 point tournaments lately in my area. I think it all matters in what part of the country you're in... or world I suppose.

Ah...here in the midwest, Adepticon is the biggest annual tournament and their championship clocks in at 1850.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

eje005 wrote:

Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.

Unless you play Black Templars, in which case said Land Raider will have a 0% chance of being destroyed by the lance.

But then you still lose because your're playing Black Templars :p

What? Preposterous! The Black Knight always triumphs!

More on-topic, could Thunderfire Cannons do anything useful? They're pretty good now with the 6th ed artillery rules, so they wouldn't be worthless against other Codices, and they cause him to move as difficult terrain. Is the Subterranean Blast S6 though? I'm assuming the Ignores Cover one isn't.

My basic non-marked Night Lords, no turkey took down the Templars.

Spaz431 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

eje005 wrote:

Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.

Unless you play Black Templars, in which case said Land Raider will have a 0% chance of being destroyed by the lance.

But then you still lose because your're playing Black Templars :p

What? Preposterous! The Black Knight always triumphs!

More on-topic, could Thunderfire Cannons do anything useful? They're pretty good now with the 6th ed artillery rules, so they wouldn't be worthless against other Codices, and they cause him to move as difficult terrain. Is the Subterranean Blast S6 though? I'm assuming the Ignores Cover one isn't.

My basic non-marked Night Lords, no turkey took down the Templars.

Good for you, you can fight a Codex from 2005! Want a cookie?

On a more serious note, if someone's quoting Monty Python and ending the sentence with a "I'd say it's blatantly obvious that it's a joke.

 McNinja wrote:

As for Gauss, a unit of Destroyers is 10 gauss shots. Heavy Destroyers is S9 gauss. Glancing wave serpents to death is the best way to deal with them, I think. Each roll of 6 takes off a hull point. Combined with any Gauss Immortals and warriors and especially the stormtek haywire unit, that's a lot of dead vehicles.

If your hitting on 3s and glancing on 6s, with cover saves being made on 4s, then 1 in 18 shots from gauss weapons will take a HP.

So 54 shots to down a Wave Serpent. Thats 27 Warriors (the most points efficient way to get Gauss) in rapid fire range. How are you reliably going to get those warriors into rapids of tanks with the speed and range of WSs? Deep striking is not reliable.

If you do acheive this thats still only one Wave serpent. Anni Barges, Night Scythes and HtH are the way to do it (as always).

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

As for Gauss, a unit of Destroyers is 10 gauss shots. Heavy Destroyers is S9 gauss. Glancing wave serpents to death is the best way to deal with them, I think. Each roll of 6 takes off a hull point. Combined with any Gauss Immortals and warriors and especially the stormtek haywire unit, that's a lot of dead vehicles.

If your hitting on 3s and glancing on 6s, with cover saves being made on 4s, then 1 in 18 shots from gauss weapons will take a HP.

So 54 shots to down a Wave Serpent. Thats 27 Warriors (the most points efficient way to get Gauss) in rapid fire range. How are you reliably going to get those warriors into rapids of tanks with the speed and range of WSs? Deep striking is not reliable.

If you do acheive this thats still only one Wave serpent. Anni Barges, Night Scythes and HtH are the way to do it (as always).

After I wrote the post I realized 10 shot ain't crap to a wave serpent. However, putting Warriors in a NS and sending them at a WS could do the trick. 24" move, deploy, shoot, dead serpent.

Anyone try putting some heavier weapons into the night scythe and dropping them down behind the ws like heavy destroyers?

That would be hard because they are not dedicated transports for heavy destroyers. So youd have to embark turn two... then disembark turn three... it's just not efficient enough.

Getting rear shots could work, but necrons can glance anything to death so just glance glance glance.

fought 5-6 serpent+1-2 wraithknight armies, it is really insane trying to take them down. have you had such experiences? how are you all dealing with it without directly tailoring?

Yes. Serpents are insane. What army do you play? Luckily I play Tau primary with varying allies and Tau probably have the easiest time of any armies in dealing with Serpents. For most other codices, good luck. Serpents are too good for most TAC lists to deal with them.

Try to focus less on high strength, low AP weaponry and make the move towards a higher volume of lesser quality shots.

i play daemons and grey knights (ironic i know) mainly. that list can churn out atleast 70 TL S6/7 shots, of which a third ignores cover while a basic wraithknight and 2 fire prisms covers anti-armor. i personally havent seen a single strong TAC list survive against that.

for some comparison, a mobile high volume of fire army such as a ravenwing force with banner would produce the same number of shots but only S4 and doesn't ignore cover.

it is incredible firepower, given their resiliency (4++ , av12and 2+ to become a glance) and mobility.

definitely a meta changing unit that i will have to benchmark my future list against.

My 5th Ed. Grey Knight Crowe-Purifiers could probably take on such a list. Sadly, I haven't really played my 5th Ed. Purifiers since, well, since 5th ed. It consisted of Crowe, 4-5 units of psycannon purifiers in rhinos and 5-6 psyfleman dreads. They're not as competitive now as they used to be back in 5th, but it is a list that can certainly give serpent-spam trouble. However, in such a matchup, whoever goes first will have the advantage.

Yeah, it is very hard to balance having sufficient vol of fire to take out so many Wave Serpents being on an extreme end while also being capable of answering the common lists.

Necrons and Tau probably have the closest answers, though I have been trying with Turn 2 fast horde daemons or circus.

What about Hive Guard? the short range on the gun could be an issue but they have everything else that's needed to threaten the serpent.