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Hello everyone. With the rise in popularity of the Eldar at my local game store (lots of armies popping up) and the fact my twin brother is going Eldar (in fact he is going to do the EXACT list I wanted to ) I have decided to build another list I have always wanted, the "Farsight Bomb" Tau list or my variation of it that is. Now I am somewhat at a crossroads as of to these questions:

-Should I take x3 Riptides?
-How to Kit out either x2 or x3 Riptides the best for your army?

Basically the questions speak for themselves as I love the model and will be taking x2 minimum for my army, just wanted to see what ya'll thought, as usual any comments thoughts or insights are welcome, thanks again guys!

While 3 is not absolutely necessary, I think you should take at least 2. Depending on the points levels, I'd go with 2 at 1750 and 3 at 2K.

I'm a little biased as to how to kit them out. I prefer the HBC's because they're better at taking out flyers. If running 2, I'd go with HBC/SMS with skyfire+interceptor. If running 3, I'd go with ion + skyfire+interceptor on the 3rd.

Do you think flyers or 2+ save models pose more of an issue to the other Tau?

I'd rather take missilesides and/or skyrays for flyers, and have the riptides available for AP2 shots (and pie plates), than use the riptides for air defense and try to patch in the AP2 elsewhere.

 Redbeard wrote:
Do you think flyers or 2+ save models pose more of an issue to the other Tau?

I'd rather take missilesides and/or skyrays for flyers, and have the riptides available for AP2 shots (and pie plates), than use the riptides for air defense and try to patch in the AP2 elsewhere.

Is AP2 really that necessary? My Tau list has only 1 source of AP2 or lower and I do just fine vs. Terminators. I really don't think armies need to focus on AP2 very much these days. The DA codex did a plenty good job of killing off the most popular 2+ army.

Also, blasts are quite nice, but they are also quite inaccurate. Between Gets Hot! and the scatter i've found the Ion to be less reliable than the HBC. I also tend to face meticulous opponents who are good about spacing, thus negating the advantage of having a template. YMMV.

Take 3 only if you have them painted like mobile suits from G Gundam (Gundam Wing will also work, but loses awesome points). Otherwise, take 2.

Ohh and I agree with 2. At 2k or lower i'd stick to 2. Skyrays/Broadsides are too good to pass up and if you've filled out troops properly you probably wont be able to fit much more in.

Three just seems like too much fat at 2k even,

I've been playing with the idea of running two, but three you might end up a bit light on meat.

One is fine. There are many great choices in the codex. Three is definitely not balanced.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
One is fine. There are many great choices in the codex. Three is definitely not balanced.

That's not exactly true. Gonyo/MVBrandt's Tau:
2 Ethereal
100-120 Kroot in 6 squads
3 Riptide
3 Sky Ray
2-3 MSU Pathfinders

Just won a GT.

I think 3 Riptides can work, but you have to build around it and shave points elsewhere.

 LValx wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
Do you think flyers or 2+ save models pose more of an issue to the other Tau?

I'd rather take missilesides and/or skyrays for flyers, and have the riptides available for AP2 shots (and pie plates), than use the riptides for air defense and try to patch in the AP2 elsewhere.

Is AP2 really that necessary? My Tau list has only 1 source of AP2 or lower and I do just fine vs. Terminators. I really don't think armies need to focus on AP2 very much these days. The DA codex did a plenty good job of killing off the most popular 2+ army.

Maybe it's just the people I play with, but one of my regular opponents runs 2 shunting dreadknights. T6 and a 2+ let it shrug off a lot.

 Redbeard wrote:

 LValx wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
Do you think flyers or 2+ save models pose more of an issue to the other Tau?

I'd rather take missilesides and/or skyrays for flyers, and have the riptides available for AP2 shots (and pie plates), than use the riptides for air defense and try to patch in the AP2 elsewhere.

Is AP2 really that necessary? My Tau list has only 1 source of AP2 or lower and I do just fine vs. Terminators. I really don't think armies need to focus on AP2 very much these days. The DA codex did a plenty good job of killing off the most popular 2+ army.

Maybe it's just the people I play with, but one of my regular opponents runs 2 shunting dreadknights. T6 and a 2+ let it shrug off a lot.

I've had no issue with DKs. Commander + Broadsides do a number to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for what it's worth, if you charge the HBC and use markers you'll probably get close to 2 rends. Which is similar output to the Ion if it isnt boosted and if it is it can still only get 1 hit with the blast.'

You can't argue with success and he beat Nick's daemons in the final round... Very impressive! It was a big event with lots of top players from that region. I do think there are armies that could beat it such as heavy daemonic cavalry. I'd like to see how it performs in a larger tournament. Riptides are strong but they do have some weaknesses. You definitely made a good point and I concede the fact.

while ive had several times when i was damn glad i had the IA, in general its underwhelming. I find unless im facing a deepstrike, horde, or an opponent that didnt space properly it usually doesnt do much. With the exception of a lascannon wall or insta-kill stuff, not much is going to threaten the riptide anyway so not like it has to sit in the back field.

I think 3 is pretty dumb though. Whether you take the IA or the HBC youre mainly shooting it at light vehicles or hordes, not big stuff since both lack the strenght for it. Ap means nothing except in a very few situations such as large termie squads, which 12 Rending shots usually cause as much wounds anyway as a piplate against a good spacing player.
Use that third elite slot for a fusion suit drop to deal with vehicles of high AV or other MCs if facing nids/GK. The 2 riptides will easily handle infantry, but have an issue with AV12+ without baller dice rolls. Fusion suit will fix that one.

 LValx wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
Do you think flyers or 2+ save models pose more of an issue to the other Tau?

I'd rather take missilesides and/or skyrays for flyers, and have the riptides available for AP2 shots (and pie plates), than use the riptides for air defense and try to patch in the AP2 elsewhere.

Is AP2 really that necessary? My Tau list has only 1 source of AP2 or lower and I do just fine vs. Terminators. I really don't think armies need to focus on AP2 very much these days. The DA codex did a plenty good job of killing off the most popular 2+ army.

Also, blasts are quite nice, but they are also quite inaccurate. Between Gets Hot! and the scatter i've found the Ion to be less reliable than the HBC. I also tend to face meticulous opponents who are good about spacing, thus negating the advantage of having a template. YMMV.

I really, really don't want to roll twelve times for get's hot along with the Nova Charge. It's a perfect way for your Riptide to off itself. And I have spectacularly bad luck with get's hot, me being the guy who had his legion list's squad of special weapons users routinely kill themselves off in their entirety with get's hot on their plasma guns.

 Kain wrote:

I really, really don't want to roll twelve times for get's hot along with the Nova Charge. It's a perfect way for your Riptide to off itself. And I have spectacularly bad luck with get's hot, me being the guy who had his legion list's squad of special weapons users routinely kill themselves off in their entirety with get's hot on their plasma guns.

You still get your 2+ against gets hot, right? But regardless, you can pretty much ignore the rule if you do anything that gives your Riptide re-rolls to hit. It only takes 3 markerlights. It's the nova charge that's more likely to be a problem.

And the first two markerlights are a good investment anyway. Each is like adding another 4 shots at BS3.

HBC gets hot is ignorable. 3 markerlights, now youre BS6 and can reroll them if you want but its highly unlikely to fail a 2+ anyway (its like what 3-4% to fail a rerolling 2+, which is what youre doing basically?)

Gets Hot on the IA is more of an issue. BS6 reroll needs to be FAQ'd regarding blasts since nothing specifically says what happens (like you scatter with BS1 instead of BS6 if you reroll or something) and is highly dependant on your opponent's views on it. Gets Hot on a blast means no shot...thats way worse than rolling 1-3 out of 12 shots and getting the other 8 to land.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
HBC gets hot is ignorable. 3 markerlights, now youre BS6 and can reroll them if you want but its highly unlikely to fail a 2+ anyway (its like what 3-4% to fail a rerolling 2+, which is what youre doing basically?)

Gets Hot on the IA is more of an issue. BS6 reroll needs to be FAQ'd regarding blasts since nothing specifically says what happens (like you scatter with BS1 instead of BS6 if you reroll or something) and is highly dependant on your opponent's views on it. Gets Hot on a blast means no shot...thats way worse than rolling 1-3 out of 12 shots and getting the other 8 to land.

BS 6 or twin link means that you get to re-roll the get hot blast template so you are having the same risk as your 3-4% rerolling 2+ for it to not go off. At BS 6, you literally scatter 6' less than the 2d6 added up together. So on average, you will scatter maybe 1 unless you boxcars or something.

If you have just twin link, you get to reroll the blast marker + the 2d6. It's actually pretty clear in the rule book. see p 37 middle column.

I run 2 at both 1750 and 2k. As previous post stated, 2 is really enough especially if you want to pimp them with stims and EWO(i tend to run both of mine with IA/SMS but magnatised so i can easily swap out). I really think 3 would limit you from taking some of the other awesome codex options like Missilesides which i find great for anti air/anti infantry of all types and anti light armor and more often than not are my MVP squad, closly followed by the Riptides.

From what i gather from the rules BS6 is pretty much gets rid of gets hot on the IA large blast by allowing you to reroll 1's and as Sudojoe said it means on average you will only diviate 1" making it highly accurate.

I have three Riptides in my list. One HBC with Velocity and EWO, two with Ion+EWO+Posirelay (for my outflanking kroot). The HBC will always be charged, especially if there's a flyer that needs killing, and I have a Farseer on a Jetbike to keep up with it to cast some Prescience. That way, I don't have to use up any markerlights on that Riptide (maybe one or two if they're behind cover), and against Flyers the Velocity Trackers + Presience means that if I don't rend with 12 shots, I should just quit.

 McNinja wrote:
and against Flyers the Velocity Trackers + Presience means that if I don't rend with 12 shots, I should just quit.

Just as a heads up, you'll be quitting about 20% of the times you try this, then. Chance of at least 1 Rend:
No rerolls: 65%
Reroll 1s to Hit: 71%
Reroll Misses: 80%

Quark wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
and against Flyers the Velocity Trackers + Presience means that if I don't rend with 12 shots, I should just quit.

Just as a heads up, you'll be quitting about 20% of the times you try this, then. Chance of at least 1 Rend:
No rerolls: 65%
Reroll 1s to Hit: 71%
Reroll Misses: 80%

Oh, I know. I tend to roll terribly, so I'll be quitting more than that.

I know the blast can be inaccurate, but it also doesn't require a nova charge to work at (or damn near) peak efficiency. I don't like being the main source of wounds done to my riptides. I also find that I have enough anti-air without taking HBCs, but like Valx, I love Broadsides and Skyrays.

Don't take HBCs. If you Novacharge them, you're going to be as likely to kill yourself with Gets Hot! as you are to kill your enemies' flyers. You can deal with flyers reliably with Skyrays and Crisis Suits or Missilesides.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Don't take HBCs. If you Novacharge them, you're going to be as likely to kill yourself with Gets Hot! as you are to kill your enemies' flyers. You can deal with flyers reliably with Skyrays and Crisis Suits or Missilesides.

Even without giving the Riptide support, this is a gross exaggeration. An average turn will:

No Support: 1/3 self wounds, AV10: 1 Glance 2 Pens, AV11: 1 Glance, 1 Pen, AV12: 1 Pen
Reroll 1s (i.e. Command-link): 1/18 self wounds, AV10: 1.17 Glance 2.33 Pen, AV11: 1.17 Glance 1.17 Pen, AV12: 1.17 Pen
Reroll All (i.e. Guide): 1/18 self wounds, AV10: 1.5 Glance 3 Pen, AV11: 1.5 Glance 1.5 Pen, AV12: 1.5 Pen
BS6 (3 Markerlights): 1/18 self wounds, AV10: 1.72 Glance 3.44 Pen, AV11: 1.72 Glance 1.72 Pen, AV12: 1.72 Pen

So even in the worst comparison (No Support, vs AV12, none of the Pens explode) you should take out the flyer in 3 turns while it would take 18 to kill yourself. Gets Hot! is not an issue.

Late Edit: Removed bit about AP2, forgot while typing that's only Wounds not Armour Pen.

Tau are mediocre shooters with awesome weapons, but become, great shooters with awesome weapons when they have markerlight support.

IA is just superior for pie squishing MEq, without nova charging it even, and with nova charge you get ordinance on tanks. Dementedwombat, in another thread, argued for giving the Riptide BS6 and ignore cover with markerlighter support, and i agree it's worth it. You want that large blast landing right where you want it and then you can watch the other guy rage out as his MEqs melt.

With all that said, the tides are still shooting at BS 3. It's also going to take 3-5 markerlights to make those tides really cause the hurt, especially if you're using the IA. I would argue that to take more than two tides (probably not worth it to take more than one) would be ineffective(missing shots) without proper markerlight support.

Maybe you don't like the IA because its blast could miss, but the only thing the HBC has going for it is the rending (6s only) ability, and only on the nova charge. It's basically the old CIB+ of last years codex. If it doesn't rend, it doesn't really DO anything significant, especially to tanks and MEq. BS3 and 8 shots. Your average is 4-5 hits of S6 AP4. MEH. That's 180points base with no upgrades and a HBC. You can kit out a crisis squad for much less, with better weapons, and better niches for them to fill.

You rang How have I not commented on this thread yet?

(and ignores cover isn't necessary, but you want to have the chance for giving it reliably. BS 6 isn't really necessary either, but i don't want my entire pie plate hanging on one 'gets hot' roll)

The thing stopping the riptide is how much support it needs. At some point it becomes an issue of not having enough markerlights to feed your army. The riptide is the perfect example of this because not only is it one of the most markerlight hungry units (if not the most) in the codex, but also if it does its job right it's very likely to completely neutralize the unit in question, so you can't use extra markerlight hits for something else (as opposed to, say, broadsides where you can get 5-6 markerlight hits on the squad you want to light up and feed 2-3 broadside teams with one unit of markerlights).

In effect each riptide you take carries one "fast attack tax" to feed it markerlights. That is almost a requirement with the ion accelerator because BS 3 on a blast weapon is pretty much useless. 3 riptides can put down good firepower and be an amazing bullet sponge/psychological weapon, but do you really want to devote your entire fast attack section to nothing more than feeding your riptides markerlights every turn?

2 riptides is probably best, although I could see the argument for only running 1. Its role is basically bullet sponge with a side order of anti teq/meq/medium vehicles (in order of preference). Less riptides free up your elites and fast attack for all the other cool toys we get.

FA is nothing but markerlights unless you are playing FW models. Pathfinders are expensive as hell to become viable and still godly squishy, All of the vehicles, flier or ground, in FA are crap in the non-FW codex. Mine are literally nothing but marker drones or bareboned 4-8man pathfinder teams for marker support.

I run two in my 2k lists, normally with lotsa pathfinders, a single unit of broadsides with rails and plasma and firewarriors. No other battlesuits. It does very well, anything my riptides can't kill, my broadsides finish off when there's no fliers around.

3 is too many, regardless of the points. Just make sure your 2 have FNP and you're fine.

Well, two are fine while three are too many points and too less damage output.