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Hey all, ( this board seems to have a heap of threads about people starting up... well here's another )

I've recently gotten into infinity and have been doing a number of games using proxy w40k models... which is kinda not so cool after a while. Currently I am deciding on whether to go with the Nomads or Ariadna. I've looked at a number of list building suggestions, and have come to the conclusion that there are no super good or super bad ones; it matters more how they're used. So following that I've put together a list for each faction that pretty much just has a bunch of models I liked the look of.
Since I'm a bit split between them, I'm just looking for comments on how they'd perform and what sort of playstyle they'd probably take. Also they are both sectorial armies.

The Ariadnans

FORCE DE RR MEROVINGIENNE
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regular: 10/Irregular: 0):

LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Boarding Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
LOUP-GAROU Boarding Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
LOUP-GAROU Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (8)
MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (8)
MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (8)
MÉTRO Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (8)
MÉTRO HMG / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)

GROUP 2 (Regular: 1/Irregular: 0):

MOBLOT (Sapper) HMG / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 41)

3 SWC | 197 Points

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Nomads

JURISDICTIONAL COMMAND OF CORREGIDOR
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regular: 8/Irregular: 0):

INTRUDER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (36)
INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 44)
HELLCAT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (24)
WILDCAT Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (19)
WILDCAT Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (19)
WILDCAT Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (19)
ALGUACIL Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (14)
ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (3)

2 SWC | 200 Points


Hopefully copying them out from the army builder wont get me into strife like listing individual points in 40k boards do.

The only thing I see that might be of note is the 2nd group in the Ariadna force. But being a sapper I presume he'll be static most of the time so it should be alright for him to have just the one order? Alternatively I had thought of putting a Traktor mul & dozer in there for support, but I'll see. Otherwise, to drop the second group entirely would mean a bit of restructure in the first group.

Cheers,
Rahx


edit; also with the online army builder, under the weapons profiles there are sometimes "weaponA+weaponB" or "weaponA, WeaponB". Am I right in saying that the + means the unit has both, whereas the commas mean it'll just have one of them.

 rahxephon wrote:


edit; also with the online army builder, under the weapons profiles there are sometimes "weaponA+weaponB" or "weaponA, WeaponB". Am I right in saying that the + means the unit has both, whereas the commas mean it'll just have one of them.

Actually. Weapon A + Weapon B notation means it's a single weapon with an attached underslung weapon, where as WeaponA, Weapon B means they are two different weapons/items. This is important to know when there're miniatures in the table that can loot weapons/equipment, such as minis with "Impersonator" or the "Booty" abilities. In the case of Weapons A, Weapon B the impersonator/booty mini gets to choose one of them, meanwhile in the case of weaponA + weapon B the impersonator/booty loots both weapons as they count as a single item.

I won't comment on the lists, sorry. But generally is not recommended to start with sectorial lists, and in your case you have chosen two sectorials that are the least representatives of those faction styles. Merovingia is about taking control of the table fast, almost from the start, and their Armor piercing choices are very few and short ranged, meanwhile Ariadna is more known for their tons of camo units, brutal/furry warbands and tons of AP weapons enough to stop a train in its tracks.
In the same way, Corregidor feels the less "Nomad" army as Nomads are usually known for their asymetric warfare tactics and table control, meanwhile Corregidor is "a brick in your face" style, with a little bit of Nomads' tricks but still quite a direct army.

For the Ariadna list, I would swap the Moblot out with one of the Metros in the 10 man combat group or drop 2 Metros and take a Chasseur. HMGs are only decent in ARO with a suppression lane and the Moblot is going to get torn up even with Sapper if it only has one order to work with.

Merovingians are a fast infantry list with everything moving 4-4. Link Garous will wreck most infantry in short range with Viral rifles and ADHLs. The main thing to watch out for are templates since they are 1 W LI and HI/Camo models with long range weapons camping in buildings.

The Corregidor list is fine, but the link bonuses for the Wildcats are a little underutilized without a heavier weapon.

Corregidor is pretty much AD infantry with poor HI, Hacking and SK options. Unusual TAGs. AD Cats do most of the heavy lifting then take and hold with Wildcats and Intruders.

I started with a sectorial, and it's not all bad. I really don't get the "don't start with sectorial" advice. Let him start with what he likes. Geesh.

As for the MRRF:

They are fun, and I like them, end-of. I like the models, the look, and the playstyle. Even in a sectorial, I find that I have lots of different options. (Plus, you can always expand to the larger faction of Ariadna)

Also, I don't know where you're getting that the MRRF can't have lots of camo. You can build and all-camo list if you really wanted to, plus, the MRRF chasseur is regarded by some to be the best skirmisher in the game.

As for the first list, I'd recommend filling the SWC up to the max. Take a light GL or even another HMG for those metros. Right now you're relying on one HMG to take out anything big and scary. Also, you may want something that your opponent has to react to. Right now, there is no camo, nor any AD, or infiltration, so if your opponent places a sniper, or a forward observer really well, you may not be able to respond effectively to take it out. As it stands, I see this MRRF list playing more like PanO (basically holding the line and fighting). This list will probably loose against a TAG, a well-placed sniper, or a bunch of heavy infantry, because it doesn't have much heavy firepower outside of one HMG. If you're going to get MRRF. Get some of their cool toys (para-commando with HMG, chasseurs, mirage-5, tractor MULs, ect) that allow you to deal with those sorts of threats. Diversify your list. Finally, I think the Boarding shotgun Loups would be better as strait viral rifles, if not just drop them entirely for some of the units mentioned above. ADL chasseurs can infiltrate and reliably get closer to the enemy threat and use their ADL. Zouaves have a devastating DEP, and are exellent at all ranges in the 0-16 bracket.

I don't know much about nomads, but maxing SWC is always a good place to start.

All I will say is that well done for including the Daktari in the Nomad list, the original mini is regarded by many to be the finest miniature ever made

Not really much to add about the lists themselves - as Kestril says, I might mix a few of the Loup Garou or Metro just because you can only have a single link team, and just to get a bit more variety of miniatures.

I think Sectorals are fine to start with. I think people really meant don't start with Link teams. Those rules can get a bit complicated for first time.

Cheers for the responses,

I've reworked the Merovingienne to get a bit of diversity in the list. Originally I was under the impression you could have 2 link teams so I was just going to blob the loup-garou and the metros, but as it seems that's not the case its given me a bit to work with.

Main changes are dropping the sapper moblot and 3 of the metros to get a chassuer and 2 zouave's in there along with infiltrate on the 2 remaining metros.

FORCE DE RR MEROVINGIENNE
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regular: 10/Irregular: 0):

LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 22)
LOUP-GAROU Boarding Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
LOUP-GAROU Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (22)
ZOUAVE Lieutenant Rifle, D.E.P. / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 20)
ZOUAVE (Sapper) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 12)
MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (11)

4 SWC | 200 Points

I feel this should work better with the addition of DEPs and infiltrators.

I'm yet to look at the nomads again, apart from one HMG, its a whole heap of combi-rifles which looks problematic. Quite a bit would have to change with them I think.


Haha, I was debating whether or not a doctor would be that useful Pacific, but then just decided that the model was reason enough. With link teams I will probably run them unlinked initially then can look at combining it all at the end. I'm trying to get out of the warhammer mindset of just deploy and ram everything in your face. It seems infinity has a few more nuances and the spamming seen in the original lists doesn't quite work like it does in the 41st millennium.

Inferior Infiltrators must infiltrate onto your opponents half of the table with a -1 to -3 PH roll. So at best Metros will fail and scatter half the time. Not so bad if you're going first, but could mean losing 2 models if your opponent has first turn.

 avantgarde wrote:
Inferior Infiltrators must infiltrate onto your opponents half of the table with a -1 to -3 PH roll. So at best Metros will fail and scatter half the time. Not so bad if you're going first, but could mean losing 2 models if your opponent has first turn.

On the other hand, a D.E.P. ARO from camo IS something to be feared.

@rahxLooks better, although the flash LGL seems a bit expensive, but could work if you "flash" them from the backfeild with the loups and then move in for the kill with your infiltrate-y stuff. If you place your D.E.P.'s well. The list you mentioned definitally would take some getting used to, and would probably be a risk-reward type thing. Still, it looks workable and fun to play.

For what it's worth, here's my try at a 200pts:

I see how the inferior infiltrators could be problematic, but it'll be one of those things that will some times work, sometimes wont.

That list does pack a lot in that 200pts kestril. I will admit the HMG para-commando is good, I've used him in all the games so far and he's generally the guy that gets things done. But those were with pre made trial lists, and for some reason I'm just not feeling him this time. Might be that I don't really like the model but that's a bit secondary, can sub with something else. I'll probably give it a shot without him, and then in the future, come back.

Initially I had wanted to have a team of 5 Loup-Garou, but I'm starting to feel its not necessary and a bit of a point sink in their redundancy. So added another DEP zouave so the lieutenants not so obvious (hadn't really though about that before), and added a HMG metros. Originally the idea had been to mark with the chassuer then flash, but the flash cost a lot in the SWC. So swapped it for a light GL metros instead, dont really know how well those two work together though.

FORCE DE RR MEROVINGIENNE
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regular: 10/Irregular: 0):

LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
ZOUAVE Lieutenant Rifle, D.E.P. / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 20)
ZOUAVE Rifle, D.E.P. / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
MÉTRO HMG / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 12)
MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 16)
CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (22)

4 SWC | 197 Points


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also had a revision on the nomads, tried to loose some of those combi rifles.

JURISDICTIONAL COMMAND OF CORREGIDOR
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regular: 9/Irregular: 0):

WILDCAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (19)
WILDCAT Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (19)
WILDCAT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (2 | 31)
HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (20)
HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (20)
INTRUDER Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (36)
TOMCAT Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 19)
ALGUACIL Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (14)

3.5 SWC | 200 Points

Added in a tomcat DEP and a wildcat heavy rocket launcher. Dropped the HMG intruder but changed the lieutenant to a wildcat so should be okay. Added in another hellcat, both having boarding shotguns. Although short ranged, since they can jump in plus the guns got AP options they seem promising, or am I overlooking something?

 rahxephon wrote:
I see how the inferior infiltrators could be problematic, but it'll be one of those things that will some times work, sometimes wont.

That list does pack a lot in that 200pts kestril. I will admit the HMG para-commando is good, I've used him in all the games so far and he's generally the guy that gets things done. But those were with pre made trial lists, and for some reason I'm just not feeling him this time. Might be that I don't really like the model but that's a bit secondary, can sub with something else. I'll probably give it a shot without him, and then in the future, come back.

Totally understand you on that. By all means, experiment, find what works best for you.

Perhaps you'll come around if you imagine him shouting in a french accent, "Who stole my baguette!?" At full volume before he goes to town with the machine gun.

Initially I had wanted to have a team of 5 Loup-Garou, but I'm starting to feel its not necessary and a bit of a point sink in their redundancy. So added another DEP zouave so the lieutenants not so obvious (hadn't really though about that before), and added a HMG metros. Originally the idea had been to mark with the chassuer then flash, but the flash cost a lot in the SWC. So swapped it for a light GL metros instead, dont really know how well those two work together though.

FORCE DE RR MEROVINGIENNE
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regular: 10/Irregular: 0):

LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Flash Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (21)
LOUP-GAROU Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
ZOUAVE Lieutenant Rifle, D.E.P. / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 20)
ZOUAVE Rifle, D.E.P. / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
MÉTRO HMG / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 12)
MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 16)
CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (22)

4 SWC | 197 Points

That looks good. You've got a solid, mobile fire base of Loups. I also like the options in this list. Want to play a little more aggressively? Mech deploy those zouaves to back up the infiltrating metros and chasseurs. Want to go on the defense? Use the chasseur to lay down some mines and funnel them into your awaiting Loups and HMG metro, while the Zouaves protect close-range threats to the loups. Basically use your skirmishers (Metros, Chasseur and zouaves) to cripple the enemy, and then move in the link team to sweep up whatever's left.

Although I don't use the inferior infiltration too much, just be careful with that. Anyways, if you're tending to drift towards camouflage and skirmishers, Ariadna (in general, not just the MRRF) IS the faction for that, just ask anyone who got tankhunter'd.

Haha, man, just made an awkward moment for me. Currently in a library and just burst out laughing, couple of people were like 'geeze man, what the heck'. Well the para-commando has definitely got a bit more appeal now.

I was looking at the mine sweeper chasseur, and if I infiltrate in, can I put out a camo'd mine on deployment? Of course provided no ones in my ZC.

On looking at ariadna, there were 3 main units that had my interest, Metros, LG, and tankhunters, pretty much all for the looks at that stage. Its just disappointing how the sectorial can't take tankhunters and in the core army your limited by availability so much. I'll get an autocannon one day, whether or not I can use it is another matter though...

Mission accomplished.

And yes, with minelayer, you lay another camo token down within the chassuer's zone of control when deploying. It has it's uses. Perhaps if you infiltrate the D.E.P. metro near the mine layer chassuer, your opponent will have to play "guess which camo token is the D.E.P." Yes, Camo allows for a lot of mind games.


I just like the concept of the whole faction. Take every country with well-known revolution. Now put them all together. Then, add werewolves.

Of course, if you asked me to pick a favorite it would be between the HMG metro and Mirage-5.

Anyways, sectorials get around the lack of variety by taking more of the good stuff (increased AVA on chasseurs, for example) and link-team rules. The autocannon tank-hunter is on my list as well, as are the wulvers, as well as those scottish snipers, as are practically anything Ariadna. (In fact the HMG metro is in the mail!)

After talking about them so much, predictably I'm leaning more towards Ariadna at the moment. Ill have to wait a bit and see what comes back on the nomads side of things before going and buying anything in the spur of the moment.

Playstyle wise I'm starting to like the sound of Ariadna, but there are also aspects of the nomads I like. It'll probably come down more to the models. Ariadna have that urban street fighter look with the metros and the nomads a more sleek futuristic appeal. The main thing that concerns me though are the heads, ariadna are all open face whereas nomads are helmeted. Open face looks really good if you can paint that well, and well helmets... you get away with not doing it. From warhammer my primary force are marines - so helmets there and then outside of that orks and vampire counts. Skulls and greenskins don't really count though. Recently I got the IG, those are open face and are difficult, some just look downright freaky. And thats not even considering infinity's smaller models. Might just have to pull out a strand of hair and paint the eyes with that, would use my dogs but seeing as I haven't got any werewolves...

It'll be a challenge I guess, but in the long run I'll probably end up having an army of both anyway.

If you do end up going MRRF I strongly recommend a Para Commando. At 20 points they are stupidly good: BS12, Mimetism and AD: Parachutist is nothing to dismiss. Take a Chasseur Minelayer to cover the fact that you are missing a model aswell. None of your opponents will expect the AD if you have 10 figs/markers on the board.

I would also recommend a Zouave Sniper over the Moblot Sapper but I suspect that has already been mentioned.

I wouldnt worry too much about the painting side, im not the best painter and i get by (you can see pics of my MRRF and Highlander 150pt lists in the community pledging thread) there will always be people out there that will put your painting to shame, just do the best you can!

Hmm, well rather than the second D.E.P zouave I could take a para-commando with a medikit and make the chasseur a minelayer. I don't really think the forward observer will be that useful with the other units I have and the medikit would be useful. But there are 2 problems this creates; A/ loose one D.E.P but still have 2 left and B/ identifies my lieutenant. At the moment, my only possible options for the lieutenant are one of the 2 zouaves so taking just the one only gives me one option. How significant would this be?

Nerm86 wrote:
I wouldnt worry too much about the painting side, im not the best painter and i get by (you can see pics of my MRRF and Highlander 150pt lists in the community pledging thread) there will always be people out there that will put your painting to shame, just do the best you can!

^This^ If you want some pictures of badly painted metros, you can check out my blog.

rahxephon wrote:Hmm, well rather than the second D.E.P zouave I could take a para-commando with a medikit and make the chasseur a minelayer. I don't really think the forward observer will be that useful with the other units I have and the medikit would be useful. But there are 2 problems this creates; A/ loose one D.E.P but still have 2 left and B/ identifies my lieutenant. At the moment, my only possible options for the lieutenant are one of the 2 zouaves so taking just the one only gives me one option. How significant would this be?

the medkit is very situational, but actually, forward observers are very useful later on, specifically in infinity tournament system, they count as a specialist, and thus can activate, take, and control objectives. Also, some powerful, but order-intensive and risky, strategies depend on forward observers to spot targets, most notably the traktor MUL firing Double-action templates across the map. It's the Infinity equivalent of a manticore.

Edit: I feel like I'm over-representing the MRRF, can some one jump in and describe what nomads do/how awesome they are?

 kestril wrote:

Edit: I feel like I'm over-representing the MRRF, can some one jump in and describe what nomads do/how awesome they are?

Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. You have been summoned

At this current stage, I pretty happy with what Ariadnan force I'd get, so here's a bit more on the nomads. I was thinking that its not really necessary to have them as a sectorial army since they meet the availabilities of just the regular one, plus I did want to include a reverend custodier in there orignally. So following that:

NOMADS
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regular: 8/Irregular: 0):

WILDCAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (19)
WILDCAT (Number 2) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (20)
WILDCAT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (2 | 31)
INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 44)
HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (20)
HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (20)
ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)
REVEREND CUSTODIER Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36)

4 SWC | 200 Points


This seems more rounded to me than the previous one, doesn't have the same amount of heavy firepower as the MRRF but I feel it should be okay. One thing I have lost is the daktaris, on the offensive front it was obvious she didn't bring much, so I'm wondering: How useful would a doctor really be?

Just a note on the wildcat - Number 2 is only used in link teams, which aren't available in non-sectorials. Maybe take the repeater version for your custodier instead?
On doctors, they're rarely made for killing stuff. They either heal your guys (hopefully) or make your opponent devote extra shots to make sure they stay down.

But don't forget even a little rifle can kill !
In my last game, my Kazak Doktor ( same stats as a Line Kazak ) got the second place for MVP =P
And he didn't even once tried to heal someone =P

Good point on the number 2 dheneb, I'll change it, but it only free's up one point and there's nothing I can really use that for. To get the marker on the custodier is an extra 2 .

Sure, shooting wise a doctor would probably be doing the same amount as the agluacil, but I think the main thing that is making is loose its attractiveness to me is that my friend who's also started up has got haqqislam. Dont know any other players at the moment, but its always kinda of lame when I look at my doctor and then their's which are available everywhere and better. Probably shouldn't bother me as I gather Haqq is the high WIP army.

My main question though would be how much benefit do link teams really bring? I've only gone to the regular so I could include a custodier, but otherwise she'd just be swapped for and intruder.

Faction envy is a terrible terrible thing. The difference in probability between a WIP14 and WIP13 doctor passing their rolls is 5% so it's not a huge gap in skill and on top of that Haqq has to pay extra for their Docs since they're linkable.

Also Nomads have Clockmakers and Tomcats, so Haqq can suck it.

Link teams increase order efficiency and buff the link teams stats at the same time. Link teams can move up to 5 linked models with one coordinated order. The +1 burst is great for winning FtFs. The bonus really shines on weapons that are low burst but nasty like Panzerfaust and pushing high burst weapons to B5. Sixth Sense L2 and +3 to Discover is a modest defensive buff and lets link teams deal with Camo. It's pretty clear what +3 BS does.

Trade offs are the obvious limited to sectorials and link teams tend to cluster up for coherency. Less table coverage and increased vulnerability to templates.