Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Name one.

Martin Luther King Jr.

Muhammad Ali


There, I just named two.

They are not in jail.

Look look! The goal posts, they keep moving!

Neither were in prison. Neither were in jail long enough to elicit the need for a Sesame Street character. Indeed Ali spent NO jail time. King spent 11 days in jail. Thats hardly relevant. Inversely, would you say the slightly longer incarcceration of John Gacy is an indicator he's not a great dad?
How about your average thief?
If you're in prison, its statistically likely you've done something bad. Regardless of anything else, that means you've taken time away from taking care of your kids because of your actions.
Yes you're a bad parent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:

 sourclams wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Look look! The goal posts, they keep moving!

Actually the statement was always in present tense, even as it was made before Frazzled replied to it.

Looking over it, actually feeder's statement was the one in present tense, but it seems an odd metric to stick by: "Sure you can show that some people in the past that were jailed weren't bad people, but since you can't name someone currently incarcerated then suddenly it invalidates the argument." Seems a bit silly.

I would list people who were wrongfully imprisoned, but since they would be free now and not in jail anymore, they apparently don't count either.

In Stalinist Russia Tense uses you!

 Frazzled wrote:
If you're in prison, its statistically likely you've done something bad. Regardless of anything else, that means you've taken time away from taking care of your kids because of your actions.

So someone who is wrongfully imprisoned is a bad parent? Seems like a pretty gakky thing to say about someone who didn't choose to spend time away from home. By this standard though our military men are bad parents because they also have to spend time away from their kids because of their actions.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If you're in prison, its statistically likely you've done something bad. Regardless of anything else, that means you've taken time away from taking care of your kids because of your actions.

So someone who is wrongfully imprisoned is a bad parent? Seems like a pretty gakky thing to say about someone who didn't choose to spend time away from home. By this standard though our military men are bad parents because they also have to spend time away from their kids because of their actions.

I'll restate. If you're in prison its statistically likely you've done something bad. Regardless of anything else, that means you've taken time away from taking care of your kids because of your actions.

This all really comes down to context for me.

In most cases, Frazzled is probably right, but to me, you need to look at the whole situation and case of a person before you declare them to be one thing or another.

 curran12 wrote:
This all really comes down to context for me.

In most cases, Frazzled is probably right, but to me, you need to look at the whole situation and case of a person before you declare them to be one thing or another.

Oh I'm sure. However, if you're in prison odds are you probably suck at life.

EDIT: or at least suck at getting caught.

 Ahtman wrote:
By this standard though our military men are bad parents because they also have to spend time away from their kids because of their actions.

Who's moving goalposts now?

And actually, it is often very difficult having a parent deployed overseas, which is exactly why the armed forces have created broader social and service networks for the remaining spouse to take advantage of.

Attempting to conflate the legitimately incarcerated with a tiny minority of the wrongfully incarcerated, especially the tiniest minority of wrongfully incarcerated that are also celebrities, and then by extension armed forces families with members in active service represents a truly warped worldview, in my opinion.

 Frazzled wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
This all really comes down to context for me.

In most cases, Frazzled is probably right, but to me, you need to look at the whole situation and case of a person before you declare them to be one thing or another.

Oh I'm sure. However, if you're in prison odds are you probably suck at life.

Odds are, most likely, but then again there are those who do straighten their lives out or were wrongfully impassioned. And I'm one of those sentimental bastards who likes the idea of a second chance for people. That said, I'm not so big on third and fourth chances.

In his defense I think he's just playing debate game. While his world view is sick and twisted, it involves clowns and cheese dip, and not the topic at hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
This all really comes down to context for me.

In most cases, Frazzled is probably right, but to me, you need to look at the whole situation and case of a person before you declare them to be one thing or another.

Oh I'm sure. However, if you're in prison odds are you probably suck at life.

Odds are, most likely, but then again there are those who do straighten their lives out or were wrongfully impassioned. And I'm one of those sentimental bastards who likes the idea of a second chance for people. That said, I'm not so big on third and fourth chances.

Second chances are for losers. To the Soylent Green Reform Academy for all prisoners, reprobates, politicians, and of course, Liechtenstein!

 Ahtman wrote:

So someone who is wrongfully imprisoned is a bad parent? Seems like a pretty gakky thing to say about someone who didn't choose to spend time away from home. By this standard though our military men are bad parents because they also have to spend time away from their kids because of their actions.

The difference is that they're god fearing earnest men who justly defend other god fearing earnest Americans from the likes of True Evil.

If someone I knew went to prison, I couldn't find it in me to hold that in judgement of them without knowing what they went to prison for.

Killed a guy? Sure. Bad person.

Had a dime on him when he got pulled over? Not really. I don't do it myself, but if I hated everyone who did things that I don't, I'd be a Republican.

 Frazzled wrote:

Second chances are for losers. To the Soylent Green Reform Academy for all prisoners, reprobates, politicians, and of course, Liechtenstein!

Lichtenstein?!

What, that's about a half-day of work for the Academy? What do you do with the rest of the working day? I thought you were pulling full shifts here!

Liechtenstein just lets you think itws a half day. We are wise to Liechtenstein's true evil.

Any nation who's presidential plane is named "Cthulu One" is hiding something...

 Frazzled wrote:
Liechtenstein just lets you think itws a half day. We are wise to Liechtenstein's true evil.

Any nation who's presidential plane is named "Cthulu One" is hiding something...

Can it really have a presidential plane if the nation is so small a landing strip can't fit in it?

 curran12 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Liechtenstein just lets you think itws a half day. We are wise to Liechtenstein's true evil.

Any nation who's presidential plane is named "Cthulu One" is hiding something...

Can it really have a presidential plane if the nation is so small a landing strip can't fit in it?

Its in their secret mountain underground airport. Come on you know the ancient Chinese mantra: Never trust a Liechtensteinian. They always have hangers stuck in their mountains. Thats why they're evil.

I mean when Hitler goes "wo wo there Mannstein. Your plan has my panzers getting a little close to Liechtenstein. You don't want to mess with them" You know those are some evil ers.

 Frazzled wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Liechtenstein just lets you think itws a half day. We are wise to Liechtenstein's true evil.

Any nation who's presidential plane is named "Cthulu One" is hiding something...

Can it really have a presidential plane if the nation is so small a landing strip can't fit in it?

Its in their secret mountain underground airport. Come on you know the ancient Chinese mantra: Never trust a Liechtensteinian. They always have hangers stuck in their mountains. Thats why they're evil.

I mean when Hitler goes "wo wo there Mannstein. Your plan has my panzers getting a little close to Liechtenstein. You don't want to mess with them" You know those are some evil ers.

Of course, this begs the question what YOU were doing there...with your Wiener Dog Tunneling Corps. Are you seeking to stop them, or usurp and take their dark throne? >.>

Are you seeking to stop them, or usurp and take their dark throne? >.>

Both? There have been reports Liechtenstein is building some sort of terrible cat weapon of mass destruction. Wiener dog scouts have been dispatched from Hamburg to check it out. Unfortunately wiener dogs, although perfect, are not the fastest and can sometimes get distracted. It may be awhile before they report back.


Remember boys and girls, worried about zombies hiding out in all the nooks and crannies of your basement? Then you need a Badger Dog!

 Frazzled wrote:

feeder wrote:
and that having been to jail doesn't automatically make someone a bad parent.

Well in reality it kind of does.

For once, I agree with frazzled. A parent should not end up en jail. My cousins baby-daddy(He isnt anything else to me). Ended up in jail for armed robbery(Who knew mace constituted armed robbery). He is a dead beat, he constantly kept my cousin and his kids on poverty, he stole from us and mooched of my moms good will.
He is a bad parent, just because he went off to fight fires to get out of jail doesn't mean anything to me.
Parents in jail deserve to loose custody rights of their kids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

feeder wrote:
There are plenty of people in jail who are not "bad" people. This is a fact.

Really? Why are they in jail then?
It is actually REALLY hard to get into jail

feeder wrote:
There are plenty of people in jail who are not "bad" people. This is a fact.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Really? Why are they in jail then?
It is actually REALLY hard to get into jail

Well, unless you know perl, go to MIT, and have participated in major protests against lobbyist bought-and-paid-for bills...

Really, I'd say that there's probably more people who aren't in jail who are "bad" people than there are IN jail who are bad people.

Per capita, of course.

Ultimately that's an amorphous non-statement.

"Bad" is too subjective a term. We're using "bad" as in "bad guys" as in people who break laws. There's undoubtedly more people who break laws outside of jail than in jail, evidenced by average speeds exceeding speed limits.

Okay, so not everyone who broke a law is in jail. Point granted.

Frazzled wrote:

feeder wrote:
and that having been to jail doesn't automatically make someone a bad parent.

Well in reality it kind of does.

These people would probably disagree. http://www.howstuffworks.com/historical-figures/10-scapegoats-still-in-crosshairs.htm

Frazzled wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If you're in prison, its statistically likely you've done something bad. Regardless of anything else, that means you've taken time away from taking care of your kids because of your actions.

So someone who is wrongfully imprisoned is a bad parent? Seems like a pretty gakky thing to say about someone who didn't choose to spend time away from home. By this standard though our military men are bad parents because they also have to spend time away from their kids because of their actions.

I'll restate. If you're in prison its statistically likely you've done something bad. Regardless of anything else, that means you've taken time away from taking care of your kids because of your actions.

So if you find yourself in prison, despite being innocent, you're a bad parent. Good to know innocence, the facts of the case, evidence, are all arbitrary. Just make a generalizing judgement to fit them all. So lets see..

if you are in prison you:

-are statistically more likely of haven committed a crime as o'''pposed to have not

- have to spend time away from your kids...

you still haven't addressed the moral hazard of not spending enough time with your kids for voluntary reasons such as career... are those people bad parents ? for the same reason you have stated that prisoners = bad parents.




I typically think you're a pretty funny chap Fraz, but if this was all an attempt at trolling, it was in poor taste. I'm baffled by how anyone with a shred of intelligence could reckon that if you are a prisoner, you're automatically a bad parent, as if they go hand in hand. Regardless if they USUALLY do, or even 99.9% of the time they go hand in hand, you can't generalize the entire topic and pretend the .01% don't exist. They do.

Plain ordinary muppet Alex. Which is good. No bling, man-jammies, or ethnicity involved.

 Frazzled wrote:

 kronk wrote:
If having a character on SS allows a young kid to identify with something and help them deal with the anger, depression, and abandonment that comes from having a parent in jail, then ok.

That's a good thing, right? It's not like they're glamorizing it.

That is indeed a good thing. Its not the kid's fault their parent is a loser and waste of skin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

feeder wrote:
There are plenty of people in jail who are not "bad" people. This is a fact.

Are you honestly advocating that going to jail = removal of parental rights?

Name one.

well, a ton of patsy's/scapegoats .. I sure would imagine.. for starters. do a google search.

You haven't heard of the Salem witch trials huh? Would you not concede those women were imprisoned by their captors, and murdered in public? Despite being innocent... Terrible parents...

Come on...

Anyways, thats all the troll's-toll that I got today.

If you reaching back what 200 years to have to support your argument, I'd dare say you lost your argument.

Again, would John Gacy's conviction give greater or lesser weight to the assumption he would be a good parent?

 Frazzled wrote:
If you reaching back what 200 years to have to support your argument, I'd dare say you lost your argument.

Again, would John Gacy's conviction give greater or lesser weight to the assumption he would be a good parent?

What about victims of false domestic dispute allegations? Which make up about 1/2 of domestic dispute cases these days I hear. How many men are arrested, incarcerated yearly over that gak? when they didn't do anything wrong, other than picking a crazy woman who pulls that crap when you break up with her/she has a bad day? Yes picking a improper mate was a poor decision, but that doesn't make that dad a bad parent.

What one random gak-head thinks, did, or didn't do has nothing to do with the over arching generalization that ALL PRISONERS DESPITE OF INNOCENCE ARE BAD PARENTS.

skyfi wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If you reaching back what 200 years to have to support your argument, I'd dare say you lost your argument.

Again, would John Gacy's conviction give greater or lesser weight to the assumption he would be a good parent?

What about victims of false domestic dispute allegations? Which make up about 1/2 of domestic dispute cases these days I hear. How many men are arrested, incarcerated yearly over that gak? when they didn't do anything wrong, other than picking a crazy woman who pulls that crap when you break up with her/she has a bad day? Yes picking a improper mate was a poor decision, but that doesn't make that dad a bad parent.

What one random gak-head thinks, did, or didn't do has nothing to do with the over arching generalization that ALL PRISONERS DESPITE OF INNOCENCE ARE BAD PARENTS.

"You hear?" sorry that doesn't cut it, other than indicates you might have issues you don't want to go there with me on. (Frazzled's way more hardcore about violence against women then he normally is).

Uh... Frazzled. I have 4 sisters, and have 10 nieces. So you can't just cut that tough guy crap out now. I'm unsure if you're aware or not of the proliferation of false domestic dispute cases. I didn't just "hear" about it, but I'm not going to do your homework for you, look it up. Many dads/men are falsely accused of this and lose custody of kids, livelihoods, everything because of it. I'm very protective of women, and don't condone violence toward anyone.

in fact I brought up how the "ruling party" of salem, held trials, and MURDERED poor women for NO good reason... Now we have different rulers, and you know what? Sometimes they get things wrong. They aren't infallible. So what does that mean? That sometimes people who are innocent, go to prison... People who are good parents... who wouldn't of otherwise missed that large chunk of their kids life by their own choices... People who could have turned down high paying out of town jobs to stay in town to be around kids for instance... But all of that possibility is out of the realm of plausibility according to you, because if you go to prison, for any reason, you're a bad parent...

I'ts very offensive to claim that anyone to ever go to prison is a bad parent. I'ts just erroneous.

skyfi wrote:
Uh... Frazzled. I have 4 sisters, and have 10 nieces. So you can't just cut that tough guy crap out now. I'm unsure if you're aware or not of the proliferation of false domestic dispute cases. I didn't just "hear" about it, but I'm not going to do your homework for you, look it up. Many dads/men are falsely accused of this and lose custody of kids, livelihoods, everything because of it. I'm very protective of women, and don't condone violence toward anyone.

in fact I brought up how the "ruling party" of salem, held trials, and MURDERED poor women for NO good reason... Now we have different rulers, and you know what? Sometimes they get things wrong. They aren't infallible. So what does that mean? That sometimes people who are innocent, go to prison... People who are good parents... who wouldn't of otherwise missed that large chunk of their kids life by their own choices... People who could have turned down high paying out of town jobs to stay in town to be around kids for instance... But all of that possibility is out of the realm of plausibility according to you, because if you go to prison, for any reason, you're a bad parent...

I'ts very offensive to claim that anyone to ever go to prison is a bad parent. I'ts just erroneous.

I have no proof of these false statements, indeed don't believe you a whit.

 Frazzled wrote:
If you reaching back what 200 years to have to support your argument, I'd dare say you lost your argument.

God, this is one of those "spurious claim vs spurious claim" things, isn't it? Fine. Here:

We can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

There may be some overlap: http://listverse.com/2013/03/27/10-people-who-were-wrongfully-accused-of-heinous-crimes/

I love mentalfloss: http://mentalfloss.com/article/25751/5-people-who-were-wrongly-convicted

Bwhaa? Almost 100 wrongly convicted person a year for 23 years? http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/21/more-than-2000-wrongfully-convicted-people-exonerated-in-23-years-researchers-say/

Clearly, they were villains of circumstance.

No on has proffered evidence that its statistically likely you're a bad person if you're in jail. You people need to work on your basic regression analysis confidence levels, and pronto!

 daedalus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If you reaching back what 200 years to have to support your argument, I'd dare say you lost your argument.

God, this is one of those "spurious claim vs spurious claim" things, isn't it? Fine. Here:

We can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

There may be some overlap: http://listverse.com/2013/03/27/10-people-who-were-wrongfully-accused-of-heinous-crimes/

I love mentalfloss: http://mentalfloss.com/article/25751/5-people-who-were-wrongly-convicted

Bwhaa? Almost 100 wrongly convicted person a year for 23 years? http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/21/more-than-2000-wrongfully-convicted-people-exonerated-in-23-years-researchers-say/

Clearly, they were villains of circumstance.

thanks for that daedauls, i'm working (trying to), babysitting my niece at work, makes it hard to google-fu

 Frazzled wrote:
No on has proffered evidence that its statistically likely you're a bad person if you're in jail. You people need to work on your basic regression analysis confidence levels, and pronto!

Frazz premise: "People who are in prison are bad guys, and bad parents."

Counterargument: "There exist people who wrongly go to prison."