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Hello Dakka!

I have recently started a Tyranid army for the first time, and have decided to try to improve my modeling/ sculpting skills to give my models a decent finish.
( I have been assembling, posing and painting Models for the past 4 years with the occasional 'Cut'n'Paste' conversions.)

The problem is, I have never used the GW 'Green Stuff' or equivalents before, have no tools for the job, or know how to use said products and tools.
The things I plan to start with first to get used to it is:
1) Filling in miscasts
2) Cleaning up mold-gaps. (E.G: When you glue the parts of Tyranid's head together, there sometimes is a gap, mainly affecting the teeth at the front. This also applies to the vent towers on the backs of the larger models, and the gaps when sticking Carapace/ Chitin parts to the body.)
3) Eventually conversions. ( Joins, making them look nice and one-piece like)
And Finally...
4) Sculpting my own models!

I understand this is not a natural skill just picked up on the spot, but I figure if I can get a good start, It will help along the way!

My questions are these:
- Do I have to get GW 'Greenstuff' and Sculpting tools? They are very costly, and while I can appreciate the need for high quality tools and materials, I do not know if these are a Cop-out of cash.
- If the GW brand is overpriced, what are the alternatives? Are there any cheaper alternatives which possess the same capabilities and quality. ( for both the Sculpting medium and the tools)
- if anyone has any advice on 'How' to use these to best effect, could I have some pointers?

Thank you for your time.

~ Nidception

EVERY GW hobby item is overpriced, rebranded stuff from another manufacturer. Do not buy them. For green stuff, you are looking for Kneadatite. If you can find it in this form:

http://www.scifigenre.com/itemDetail.aspx?nItemID=34611

and NOT the two strips side by side, you will be much better off.

Sounds like you are going about it the right way. For tools, I like to use clay shapers (available at most art stores) for a lot of stuff and a variety of toothpicks, dental tools, clay sculpting tools etc... Just keep your tools wet when working with the stuff so it doesn't stick. Work on one thing at a time, and let it dry before touching the model again.

Let us know how it goes.

I've been self sculpting for several years now (you can find some ork models I've done here on DakkaDakka) and for almost everything I have used a Citadel sculpting tool; even after the bladey bit on the end snapped off.

As for Green Stuff you should buy it from Heresy Online. They stock GS inA big tube for about £11 for 100grams as opposed to Games Workshop which was about £5.50 last time I checked for only 20grams. Heresy also sell lots of tools cheaper than GW but like I say I really only use the one tool. I do recommend a small pointed clay shaper though, very handy.

I also mix a small amount of Vaseline into my GS when mixing as that stops it being so sticky and whilst working you can't beat some old fasioned spit.

I've also learnt to only use a tiny quantity of GS as you often mix up far more than you need and it ends up getting wasted; if you don't mix enough you can always do some more.

Nidception wrote:
My questions are these:
- Do I have to get GW 'Greenstuff' and Sculpting tools? They are very costly, and while I can appreciate the need for high quality tools and materials, I do not know if these are a Cop-out of cash.

Quite simply, no. GW stores can demand GW models, but you're never so limited when it comes to hobby tools and supplies.

- If the GW brand is overpriced, what are the alternatives? Are there any cheaper alternatives which possess the same capabilities and quality. ( for both the Sculpting medium and the tools)

It is. GW's Greenstuff is re-branded Kneadatite, which can be purchased directly as such (as well as re-branded by other companies, for that matter). GW GS also comes in paired strips, which is less than ideal, as the material tends to cure at the seam. To avoid the inevitable lumps and wasted material, I recommend buying it in a tube, where the two parts come as separate logs (even then, I transfer them into separate zip-top bags). GS/Kneadatite also isn't the only 2-part epoxy putty on the market. Brownstuff, Greystuff, Miliput in its various grades, etc. all have somewhat different working and cured properties which are better suited to different tasks. Some people actually mix them together to tweak the materials' behavior.

Sculpting tools are also generally available, not to mention the DIY alternatives. Many people have started with nothing more than damp toothpicks and a hobby knife blade, but generally graduate to dedicated stainless steel sculpting tools. Clay/color shapers are fast becoming the standard for regular GSers, though, and I can see why - the silicone tips lessen or even erase the need for constant lubrication, which is one of the bigger drawbacks of the medium.

- if anyone has any advice on 'How' to use these to best effect, could I have some pointers?

Search through the Dakka Articles section and the P&M Tutorials sub-forum (use your preferred search engine, as well, for the plethora of off-board info) - GS/sculpting is a popular topic. Most generally, know that the material is rather weird to work with. It's sticky, it's rubbery, and its behavior changes over time (gradual cure), so expect there to be a learning curve to handling the material, itself, beyond developing more general sculpting skills. Reading up is crucial, but there's really no substitute for experience, so expect more than a bit of practice before you get into the swing of things. When I first messed around with some practice blobs, I absolutely hated the stuff - it wasn't until my first real conversion project forced me to get stuck in [rimshot] that I became reasonably comfortable with it.

Thanks for the replies!

@ Todosi - I do concur with this notion! The only reason I really got back into GW 40K is because I found 2 Battleforces unopened in my attic, and got a sweet deal on a Carnifex and a Hive Tyrant. The rest of what I have been doing is single, one-off models and Ebay bought deals.
-Kneadite, I will have a look around in my hobby shops.
- Thank you very much for the link!
- Might I ask what the:

"and NOT the two strips side by side, you will be much better off. "

Is about? Do you mean a product that comes in Strips rather than Cylinders? Or am I being a fool...

- Clay shapers/ other tools, keep them wet when working to avoid sticking.One step at a time. Thanks for the advice!

I will set up a PM? - the progress thread forums... I am rather new here to forgive my lack of Knowledge!


@Gogsnik - I will be sure to look for them!
-Citadel sculpting tool. I'll keep that in mind.
- Heresy Online. Really? That much more! Wow... GW... Wow... I knew you overcharged but... Wow... : Will definitely look into Heresy Online in that case!
- Vaseline, I see, makes sense when sculpting. It would be horrifying to have sculpted something, only to tear it off as its stuck to the tool. ( Over exaggeration but hey! Prints a funny picture!)
- Small amounts to avoid waste. Sensible and Economical! Thanks for the advice!


@ oadie - Good to know about the tools etc!
- Ah, you answered my strip question earlier! Thankyou!
- More hints to Clay Shapers, thanks!
- Ah right, I will have a mosey on over to sneak a peek at them! I do expect a learning curve ( I am an Art Student, so I have experienced this on a different scale an mediums. I'm willing to except the curve as part of the process.)
- Agreed on the experience part, 100%. This thread is mainly for the research and tool advice to start. Will force myself to have a proper attempt!
Thanks for the comments!

Thanks for your time everyone! - if anyone has anything more to add, pitch in or say, feel free!

~ Nidception

A) Do not, I repeat DO NOT buy GW's stuff - For about £15 I got a full 18 piece sculpting set off Ebay, when GW was going to charge me £3 - £4 for just one tool. The Same goes for Greenstuff - a 36 inch roll will cost you £8, whereas a 6 inch strip will cost £6 on GW's site. The only GW greenstuff product that you'll probably find useful, and I admit I got myself a pot, is the liquid GS, it's perfect for filling mold lines and only needs a light sand afterwards.

B) Kneadatite and sculpting tools can be commonly found on Ebay and are good quality for a low price I reckon.

C) You will find any amount of tutorials on Google. That's the way I do all my GS conversions; I think of what I want to achieve, Google the closest thing, and then go from there. Video tutorials are especially helpful as you can pause etc.

I'll echo Gogsnik to say that more often than not you'll mix up far more GS than you'll need, but your instinct of how much you'll need will grow over time

@Todosi - I use the side by side strip, and so far it's never gone off or anything, so I'm curious to know why many people dislike it?

@ Warpig1815 -

A) Do not, I repeat DO NOT buy GW's stuff - For about £15 I got a full 18 piece sculpting set off Ebay, when GW was going to charge me £3 - £4 for just one tool. The Same goes for Greenstuff - a 36 inch roll will cost you £8, whereas a 6 inch strip will cost £6 on GW's site. The only GW greenstuff product that you'll probably find useful, and I admit I got myself a pot, is the liquid GS, it's perfect for filling mold lines and only needs a light sand afterwards.

- I will avoid buying the GW GS in that case! Liquid GS as you say then may be worth it.

B) Kneadatite and sculpting tools can be commonly found on Ebay and are good quality for a low price I reckon.

C) You will find any amount of tutorials on Google. That's the way I do all my GS conversions; I think of what I want to achieve, Google the closest thing, and then go from there. Video tutorials are especially helpful as you can pause etc

- I am a fan of Ebay, but I can only do it through a friend. ( he buys it with an account, I pay him when it comes through) which has worked well so far! - I will keep an eye out. Also I will watch tutorials on using it, since the advantages you state are nice!

I'll echo Gogsnik to say that more often than not you'll mix up far more GS than you'll need, but your instinct of how much you'll need will grow over time

- Of course, like all skills, practice makes perfect!

Thanks for your time.

~ Nidception

If you want something with more working time, check out miliput. Also allows you to make sharper edges. You can also mix it with GS to give a sculpting material with the benefits of both (depending on the ratio you use).

As far as green stuff goes its great for small details, How ever MIlliput is a much cheaper putty that is still very sculptable when wet.For tyranids hard shells and sharp features I think Milliput would be much more affordable and practical for a beginner .

Well Milliput is dirt cheap so you can buy it on top of GS but i don't think that it is better for a beginner. It isn't as sticky and has a more clay like consistency. As a result it is less forgiving especially with hard tools and you'll leave tool marks much faster than with GS. But this also mean that if you know the medium you can archive finer details.
And it is much harder once cured than GS, so you can sand and file it quite easily. GS stays somewhat flexible even after it is completely cured. This has advantages and disatvantages. It is harder to sand but will more likely survive a drop without breaking. But for long and thin details like sword blades it is to flexible for my taste.

Milliput isn't better for beginner in my experience but as an art student you might have experience with clay so it is probably worth looking into it.

And i'm also one of those guys who mix GS and Milliput together to sculpt. But i'd say learn the basic putties first before you start experimenting with other stuff or mixing them together.

There are a few really nice tutorials on stuff you can do with GS over here: http://fromthewarp.blogspot.de/p/archives-and-tutorials.html

Thank you very much for the replies. Here are my responses!

-@ SilverMK2
I have tried milliput before at the beginning of my A-level Art course ( I have just finished the entire course now), and I noticed it had a longer working time. Unfortunately, I had no idea how to use it since my tutor was... not very helpful. I will try it out, but experiment with mixing and different consistencies. Cheers!

-@ LobsterLobber
That is the primary use I am looking at using the Green Stuff for, creating a nicer model to paint on, instead of the small gaps left in the models assembly. It really grinds my gears when I see them. Perhaps because of my perfectionist tendencies.
You think it would work well for the Carapace Shells and Chitin? I will look into it!

-@ bltdoomhammer
Hello! Before I answer, I simply have to say this. The reason why I decided to make a Dakka account and decide to try to use more modeling skills is because of you. Great work in your P&M Blog. I really enjoy your models and hope you can continue with them all!
-Anyway!-
Thanks for the advice also. I Have tried clay before, making skulls and bones on a larger scale. ( Around Real Life Size) - I had also tried Milliput but, as I wrote earlier, I had no idea how to use it very well, and as a result, did not get very far. This time I am going to try again on miniatures. ( my main area is Acrylic Paints and Canvas... suffice to say this is where I am most comfortable, but I love miniatures, so... a new direction is to be explored!)
So, GS for the flexibility , but Milliput for details like blades, or areas which could be sanded( say, a Tyranid Carapace for instance).
- Try both individually before mixing them together, got it. ( Divide and Conquer, as the saying goes)
Thanks for the link! I will scroll my way through them to gain more insight!
Again, keep up the brilliant work in the P&M Blog!


Thanks for the advice again everyone! - I will be sure to post up me results soon... once I can get my gribbly tentacles on supplies!

~ Nidception

Go here to get your stuff -
http://heresyminiatures.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=66_70&zenid=c0931de815eac963b6d706f2055c1e7c
He usually does green stuff but only seems to ProCreate on the site at the moment - how odd....
& here for the big batch of GS -
http://www.sylmasta.com/acatalog/Kneadatite-Greenstuff-Stick-356.html?gclid=COibn8mG87cCFcXKtAod3GEAuw
BTW keep unmixed GS in the freezer to keep it fresh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note that the 'big batch' of GS is probably at least 5 times as much as the strips GW sell (so compare £11.40 to £6.15!).
Also with the strips you get a cured 'spine' where the 2 colours are joined - really anoying if you get some in your mix.

Nidception wrote:

-@ bltdoomhammer
Hello! Before I answer, I simply have to say this. The reason why I decided to make a Dakka account and decide to try to use more modeling skills is because of you. Great work in your P&M Blog. I really enjoy your models and hope you can continue with them all!

Wow thanks. I never thought that i would be that inspireing. Thanks. And i plan on continue as long as i have fun sculpting stuff. And that will probably be a long time. (Sadly that also means that me painting my models will take more of a backseat...)

I had also tried Milliput but, as I wrote earlier, I had no idea how to use it very well, and as a result, did not get very far. This time I am going to try again on miniatures. ( my main area is Acrylic Paints and Canvas... suffice to say this is where I am most comfortable, but I love miniatures, so... a new direction is to be explored!)

Well just think of a miniature like a canvas just with one additional dimension. And here Creating the canvas is also part of the process. You can't just create a picture out of thin air you need something to paint on. With sculpting it is the same. A good basic shape is required to actually add details to it. A good looking decorated armor starts with a good looking armor to add the decorations onto.
I'd say there are two mayor skills involved. A detail skill to create fine but sharp looking details. The other side is a good planing. Creating a pose and armature as well as layering the details right so that you have a solid 3d canvas for your next layer of details. (While i think that i'm decent at details my planing is still somewhat lacking. But i'm slowly getting there )

I will be sure to post up me results soon... once I can get my gribbly tentacles on supplies!

Then I'll be waiting how it will turn out.

I often see people mention putting GS in the fridge. I've kept my current batch in a non air sealed tub for at leat eighteen months and it's fine. Of course I haven't got a fridge to put GS in so the idea is largely moot for me but is there a noticable benefit?

Another thing I do when sculpting a full model (human anyway) is to get a pictured scaled to the exact size you want the model to be and then use that as a guide when sculpting. I did what I consider to be a very good unarmoured marine this way and helped me immensely to make sure limbs were the right lengths, muscles the right size and kept everything in proportion.

Color shapers rule. When I got some, the quality of my GS work went up a few levels

 Gogsnik wrote:
I often see people mention putting GS in the fridge. I've kept my current batch in a non air sealed tub for at leat eighteen months and it's fine. Of course I haven't got a fridge to put GS in so the idea is largely moot for me but is there a noticable benefit?

I've had mine in zip-top bags for years, unrefrigerated (sometimes rather warm, when my hobby space lacked air conditioning), with no ill effects. I think those that chill unmixed GS may have misinterpreted advice given on prolonging the working time of MIXED GS. The cure is an endothermic reaction - warming mixed GS up in a low-temp curing oven (I've seen a few articles reccommend a metal can with an incandescent light bulb mounted in the top) speeds up the process, while popping it in the freezer can keep it from curing overnight, if you mix too much. I don't believe that there's any benefit to chilling or freezing unmixed portions (if anything, I'd consider the need to warm it back up or thaw it out a serious downside).

Thanks for the replies!

@- bubber
Thanks for the links and the advice!

@- bltdoomhammer

Wow thanks. I never thought that i would be that inspiring. Thanks. And i plan on continue as long as i have fun sculpting stuff. And that will probably be a long time. (Sadly that also means that me painting my models will take more of a backseat...)

- Just goes to show that the work is appreciated and is rather good if I may say so! - and that is the way to do it, for fun all the way! ( and tell me about it I get sidetracked by painting on canvas and creative writing my wargaming ends up back seating a lot... - too much in fact .... I am going to combine them to help lift them to the same level haha)

Well just think of a miniature like a canvas just with one additional dimension...

- Thanks for the Analogy, helps add to the understanding, at least for myself. Onwards and upwards as they say! It can only get better. I am decent at overall ideas, planning etc, but its the details that get me... (in Canvas painting - I get a good atmosphere, theme, pose... general look to figures, but then when I add details, they seem not to fit, or clash with eachother. I think I am the opposite to you in these regards Trying to get 'less is more' to a tee.)

- Thanks! I hope they provide some entertainment, or interest!


@- Gogsnik
Ohhh- good idea with the representation next to the sculpt! I may have to absorb this useful trait to the next batch of Fleet Spawn!
Also, I have plenty of seal-able tubs available, so I will keep the stuff in there!


@- Million
Definitely looking into Color shapers!


@- oadie
In that case, I will try the mixtures out side of freezer conditions and within them to compare results! It would be an interesting study I think!


Thank you all for your replies! I appreciate every one. Again, if anyone has any more tips, skills, advice or general comments, feel free!

~ Nidception