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Hi guys,

I'm in somewhat of a dilemma and I could do with some advice on how to proceed with my army. I got back into the hobby just over a year ago and I've collected a Steel Legion IG mechanised army which is pretty much fully painted to a really good standard, I'm really proud of it. However, I'm feeling continually frustrated whenever I play, as I feel sometimes the game wasn't even worth the time unpacking my miniatures. Admittedly I do play in a bad meta for my army, which includes DE Lance Spam, several Necrons (Annihilation Barge Spam and Cron Air) and assorted Marine armies. The marines aren't soo bad, but the others are horrendous to play against.

I feel like I've come to a fork in the road, and in order to improve my army to be able to compete here I would need to spend significant money. At the moment I have:

- CCS w/Plasma in Chimera
- 2 Plasma Vet and 1x Melta Vet Squads in Chimeras
- Vet Squad w/Lascannon + Snipers behind an Aegis with a Quad Gun
- 2x Armoured Sentinels (fully magnetized)
- LRBT (Fully magnetized)
- Vendetta
- Manticore
- Griffon
- Hellhound (fully magnetized)
- Stormtroopers

Now I understand the current "competitive" IG build is a big blob squad behind the aegis with all sorts of FW goodies like Sabre Lascannon platforms, Heavy Artillery carriages and the like, and several vendettas paradropping the PCS squads onto objectives with some sort of allied Prescience or Ld10 addition. The problem is to achieve this I would have to spend a lot of money at Forge World and not use a lot of models I've spent a lot of time painting up.

To buy enough models to to this, I'd be looking at maybe £200 or more. For that sort of money I could just start another army!

So my options as I see them are:

1) Add in some sort of allies to help my Mech list
2) Make the Mother of all firebases using Forge World stuff
3) Start another army?

At the moment, I'm really not enjoying playing the game at all and find myself frustrated. No one plays to lose. On the subject of starting another army, I am leaning towards Tyranids simply because they are so different to all other armies and I quite fancy painting some of the big bugs. Or do I try patching my Mech IG up with allies and try to hold on for the new IG codex that might come out next year? It doesn't help that GW have stopped selling Steel Legion models too, so I'd have to get boring Cadians if I wanted a foot platoon :(

So, Dakka....what should I do?

Well what point value do you usually play at - this would help us get a better idea because there is a big difference between the units you listed fitting into a 1500 pt army and a 2000 pt one.

In terms of general tweaks, another LRBT and vendetta could go a long way.

I would stop using the sentinels as they cost 60+ points for a BS3 autocannon or lascannon (crons will easily glance them to death and any other str 6+ weapon could screw them easily - as I'm sure you know).

I would also consider adding another vet squad + chim in there if you could squeeze it in. Sometimes there really is a "magic" number for some units. Right now your 3 vet chims might be extremely manageable for opponents, but just one more could cause them to have to split their precious heavy weapons up enough to the point where they can't kill them all turn 2.

Have you tried looking around at what other peoples competitive mech guard lists look like? Also try searching for battle reports and take a look at the tactics that were used, maybe something you haven't thought of would pop up.

I'd avoid switching armies or feeling as though you are forced to buy FW to be competitive, you can make your current army work with some tweaking.

I recently copied this conversion to make three earthshaker batteries for my traitor guard army:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/432400.page

Quite easy to do and the toy artillery gun that the conversion is based off is ridiculous cheap.

If your opponents are spamming lots of AT then either you ened to add more tanks to overload the available weapons, or provide an infantry threat that doesn't really care about anti tank weapons. Adding some big Ork Mobs to run forward and disrupt the enemy heavies might be one way of doing this. Another alternative might be to take Tau allies and use infiltrating Kroot to bring the threat closer to the enemy lines. Probably not as useful against Marines, but it might be effective against Necrons and dark eldar. Both of these would act to tie up Necron infantry and I think both are a reasonable threat to DEldar skimmers in CC.

Are you running the vendetta empty?

I would recommend keeping with the current army but strip the list of the armoured sentinels, adl, and sniper vets. Use those points to add another vendetta and put a flamer or melta vet squad in each vendetta. If you are still having trouble then add an astropath, remove the hellhound, and add another vendetta. You may have to cut the lrbt at some point for the points.

Either way I wouldn't get rid of anything as you never know what will be good in the next dex.

If you like any of the forge world stuff think about getting some thunderer siege tanks as they work pretty well with mech vets. Or the artillery carriages which you can use your current models to man. Sabers are great but not strictly necessary if you bring enough vendettas.

gossipmeng wrote:Well what point value do you usually play at - this would help us get a better idea because there is a big difference between the units you listed fitting into a 1500 pt army and a 2000 pt one.

In terms of general tweaks, another LRBT and vendetta could go a long way.

I would stop using the sentinels as they cost 60+ points for a BS3 autocannon or lascannon (crons will easily glance them to death and any other str 6+ weapon could screw them easily - as I'm sure you know)..

I normally play around 1500 points, and I do run four Chimeras with CCS/Vets. I was considering another LRBT/Vendetta actually. Shame about the sentinels, I find them moderately effective with Plasma cannons to get around the rubbish BS3. Mine seem to survive long enough to be able to kill more than their points worth as there are bigger targets, they tend to do alright for me. Plus I love sentinel models but I will take your advice on board. Maybe you're right, maybe one more chimera might do it?

ansacs wrote:Are you running the vendetta empty?

I would recommend keeping with the current army but strip the list of the armoured sentinels, adl, and sniper vets. Use those points to add another vendetta and put a flamer or melta vet squad in each vendetta. If you are still having trouble then add an astropath, remove the hellhound, and add another vendetta. You may have to cut the lrbt at some point for the points.

Either way I wouldn't get rid of anything as you never know what will be good in the next dex.

If you like any of the forge world stuff think about getting some thunderer siege tanks as they work pretty well with mech vets. Or the artillery carriages which you can use your current models to man. Sabers are great but not strictly necessary if you bring enough vendettas.

Yeah I typically run the vendetta empty. I tried running a melta squad in there for a while but I was finding that they wouldn't accomplish much. They might get lucky and grav chute accurately, but it's usually about turn 3-4 when they are doing this. Most of the time my vendetta gets shot down and they all die from the Str10 hit. I do like the forge world stuff but what I don't want to do is spend vast quantities of money when I can almost as easily buy another army entirely. I think it's probably just unfortunate meta, that I play with several necrons and a DE lance spam player which means it's almost pointless bringing armour. Facing off Turn 1 against 15-18 Dark Lance shots is very difficult indeed.

I dunno, I'll have to keep thinking on it. Thanks for the advice anyway guys. I just hear people say they are winning with IG still and that IG is very strong but I look at my games and think "how"?

Yeah don't give up mate, your local meta is a bit hard at the moment but more air support is the way to go!

My understanding of Dark Eldar lance platforms is that they are all quite fragile. Is there some way to reserve all your vehicles so you don't have to take the AT pain straight away? You could even deploy some of your veteran squads as infantry to give you more reserve slots, or perhaps swap out a full mech squad and the sentinels to get an infantry platoon to bulk out your unit numbers. If your opponents deploy everything to begin with you're denying them much to shoot at, while the turn of shooting you get with each vehicle as it arrives (even if its a bit piecemeal) might be enough to cripple the AT weapons before they get to take out your tanks?

Actually for the DE lance spam just spam vendettas and chimeras even harder. AV12 is not a good AV for D.Eldar as they gain no benefit from their fancy lance rule.

The answer to cron air is 2-4 sabre platforms (which can be kit bashed from 2 lascannons and some barricade/sandbag/barrel pieces on a heavy weapons team base). Or you can spam vendettas in enough quantities that his air force is shot down en mass.

The reason your vendetta doesn't last is it is alone and so can be focused down. If you run 2-3 of them then you can much better kill the AA threats and one of them will be able to drop its load.

I'd only start another army if what you want is another army. The one you're running is plenty fixable, and for less than you think. I'd just get yourself a couple more leman russes, kit their main gun towards your local meta, and play lower-point games (because you don't have the models to be strong at above about 1500 points right now).

Showing up with three exterminators with lascannons and multimeltas, or three lascannon/plasma cannon vanquishers, and all your problems will get sorted right out.

Or, worst case, you decide to counts-as all your vehicles as hydras, and watch as necron fliers and DE skimmers get instantly liquefied.

And no, you do not need FW to play guard competitively. Not by a long shot.

Agent0range wrote:
Admittedly I do play in a bad meta for my army, which includes DE Lance Spam, several Necrons (Annihilation Barge Spam and Cron Air) and assorted Marine armies. The marines aren't soo bad, but the others are horrendous to play against.

The problem is not your meta, it's your army. I don't see there being any meta where that list functions. You have a classic example of what some people will disdainfully refer to as a "battleforce army" - i.e. one of everything.

The problem with this army is that it makes it very easy for opponents to focus on the small parts that are effective against them and destroy them quickly. It also makes it hard for you to know how best to employ it and when you do, your plans are easily disrupted by the loss of a single unit.

Examples:
You have a single anti-flier unit, not capable of killing a single flier effectively, let alone several.
You have two units capable of dealing with AV14, neither especially reliably. More than Landraider would give you problems.
You have no way of dealing with large amounts of light armour.
These are all very common things to come up against.

Agent0range wrote:
Now I understand the current "competitive" IG build is a big blob squad behind the aegis with all sorts of FW goodies like Sabre Lascannon platforms, Heavy Artillery carriages and the like, and several vendettas paradropping the PCS squads onto objectives with some sort of allied Prescience or Ld10 addition. The problem is to achieve this I would have to spend a lot of money at Forge World

There are lots of competitive builds for guard, FW units are not required. You need to look hard at your army and figure out why it's not working. The first thing you need to do is recognise what capabilities you need to have (i.e. what things you need to be able to kill - a couple of AV14, a couple of fliers, a bunch of AV11-12, GEQ, MEQ, terminators) and make sure that you have multiple units (two at the absolute minimum!) in the army capable of doing each of these functions (of course, this is where you need to try and find units that can provide several of these functions). You can do this by spamming identical units or by having several different units that provide that capability.

Agent0range wrote:
and not use a lot of models I've spent a lot of time painting up.

Any improvement - allies, new units or a new army is going to involve you putting some of what you have on the shelf. If that's a problem then you aren't going to be able to improve. I have four FW Mars Pattern Leman Russ. They're beautiful models but they just aren't good.

Agent0range wrote:
1) Add in some sort of allies to help my Mech list
2) Make the Mother of all firebases using Forge World stuff
3) Start another army?

Agent0range wrote:
At the moment, I'm really not enjoying playing the game at all and find myself frustrated. No one plays to lose. On the subject of starting another army, I am leaning towards Tyranids simply because they are so different to all other armies and I quite fancy painting some of the big bugs.

Without identifying why your current list doesn't work, none of these will solve your problem.

Another Manticore and another Vendetta will go a long way toward helping you compete in that tough meta. You just need to trim the fat - Sentinels, Sniper Rifles, Storm Troopers, all of the fluff should go.

The Vet squad behind the ADL should be a Harker Vet squad with camo cloaks for that juicy 2+ cover save.


Earthshaker batteries aren't going to help you against Cron Air, which is probably your biggest threat. It's definitely mine by a long shot. Try going with another Vendetta and trimming the fat to add another Manticore, then see how you're doing. If you're still getting your ass handed to you, then maybe it's time to start running a Sabre Platoon (i.e., easy button).

As for DE, you shouldn't be having a trouble with them. Last game I played against DE was against the usually Blasterborn venomspam, and I tabeled him completely in two turns, as the opponent made the mistake of reserving units. Manticores obliterate them.

Agent0range wrote:
I think it's probably just unfortunate meta, that I play with several necrons and a DE lance spam player which means it's almost pointless bringing armour. Facing off Turn 1 against 15-18 Dark Lance shots is very difficult indeed.

I just hear people say they are winning with IG still and that IG is very strong but I look at my games and think "how"?

Just noticed this comment while checking the thread for updates and it reinforced what I was already thinking. This is going to be kind of hard to hear but you need to hear it. The following things do not lose games:

Your choice of codex (they can all win, some are just more difficult than others)
Your opponent's list / your local meta (do you think that the C:IG players that are winning games don't have opponents using DE lance spam or flyer-heavy necrons?)
Your dice / luck (some lists are quite vulnerable to bad dice (a small number of very important rolls) but you designed that list)

You lose games because you put together a bad army, you played badly or both. Without acceptance of that, you won't improve your play or list building.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Agent0range wrote:
I think it's probably just unfortunate meta, that I play with several necrons and a DE lance spam player which means it's almost pointless bringing armour. Facing off Turn 1 against 15-18 Dark Lance shots is very difficult indeed.

I just hear people say they are winning with IG still and that IG is very strong but I look at my games and think "how"?

Just noticed this comment while checking the thread for updates and it reinforced what I was already thinking. This is going to be kind of hard to hear but you need to hear it. The following things do not lose games:

Your choice of codex (they can all win, some are just more difficult than others)
Your opponent's list / your local meta (do you think that the C:IG players that are winning games don't have opponents using DE lance spam or flyer-heavy necrons?)
Your dice / luck (some lists are quite vulnerable to bad dice (a small number of very important rolls) but you designed that list)

You lose games because you put together a bad army, you played badly or both. Without acceptance of that, you won't improve your play or list building.

You might lose ONE game due to those things. But yeah, losing lots of games seems to be one part list one part skill. Those things being equal, bad rolls, bad codex, etc CAN mess up a game... but every time I've lost, I know it was due to a stupid mistake on my part that my opponent exploited. When I beat people, and they say it was codex, luck, etc, I'm nice and agree... but I could always tell them when in the game they lost, and its never luck or codex, but errors on their part and just poor list creation... though why bring it up if they're in denial?

Like others have said you can easily make your list more competitive and keep the mech elements. I'd drop the sentinels, the hellhound, and the Battle Tank for starters. From there, take more of your choice of Vendettas, Manticores, Medusa/Basilisk, top tier Russes (Executioner, Demolisher, ect), or even Veterans to put inside the Vendettas

Ailaros wrote:I'd only start another army if what you want is another army. The one you're running is plenty fixable, and for less than you think. I'd just get yourself a couple more leman russes, kit their main gun towards your local meta, and play lower-point games (because you don't have the models to be strong at above about 1500 points right now).

Showing up with three exterminators with lascannons and multimeltas, or three lascannon/plasma cannon vanquishers, and all your problems will get sorted right out.

I had thought about getting another Russ or two, but is there much point with DE lance and Necron gauss?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Agent0range wrote:
I think it's probably just unfortunate meta, that I play with several necrons and a DE lance spam player which means it's almost pointless bringing armour. Facing off Turn 1 against 15-18 Dark Lance shots is very difficult indeed.

I just hear people say they are winning with IG still and that IG is very strong but I look at my games and think "how"?

Just noticed this comment while checking the thread for updates and it reinforced what I was already thinking. This is going to be kind of hard to hear but you need to hear it. The following things do not lose games:

Your choice of codex (they can all win, some are just more difficult than others)
Your opponent's list / your local meta (do you think that the C:IG players that are winning games don't have opponents using DE lance spam or flyer-heavy necrons?)
Your dice / luck (some lists are quite vulnerable to bad dice (a small number of very important rolls) but you designed that list)

You lose games because you put together a bad army, you played badly or both. Without acceptance of that, you won't improve your play or list building.

Thanks for the motivational speech lol. It is tough to hear but you are probably right. I'm still fairly new to the game, having gotten into it about a year ago and I haven't really played lots of games in that time. In total I've probably played about 35ish games max. I've bought the models I like which hasn't proven to be the best idea. I guess I need to try and figure this out some more, and stick to lower points games for now until I've figured it out. Going from the comments earlier, I think I need to consider redundancy a lot more, whether it be two or more artillery units, Russ' or Vendettas (or all of the above).