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Baktru wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

So sure their are a couple but assuming a 3+ is a far better assumption than 2+, and no 6 wound MC has a 2+.

*Cough* Tyrannofex.

*Cough* I said units you actually see, otherwise I could continue to add to the list of MCs with 3+ or worse
Not including FW (simply because I don't know all the units) MCs breakdown game wide as far as saves go.

2+ save (3 maybe 4)
Riptide
Dreadknight
Tyranofex
Tyrant sometimes

3+ or worse = 23
Carnifex
Tervigon
Tyrant almost always
Swarmlord
Trygon
Mawloc
Harpy
Canoptek spyder
Ctan shard
Avatar
Wraith Knight
Wraith Lord
Talos
Chronos
Bloodthirster
Scarbrand
Lord of Change
Fateweaver
Keeper of Secrets
GUCO
Special nurgle guy (forget his name)
Daemon Prince (Daemons)
Daemon Prince (CSM)


So going with things we actually see makes 2+ Mcs a larger percent of what we see, than what is actually in the game.

Breng77 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Yeah, except that the DE lists that perform well are generally of 2 types:

Seer Council deathstar
Beastpack deathstar

Sean Nayden, I think it is, places well frequently in east coast events. But most of his lists seem to revolve around abusing the combos between the two armies. I have yet to see pure DE fare particularly well in any events.

But that is more or. Less true for most armies. I have not seen pure _____place well. Ig, wolves, space marines, blood angels, sisters, csm, Templars, eldar (though we shall see with the new book).

Essentially if you are not crons, nids or Tau (gk do ok but pure gk have not won anything that I'm aware of) then we should say you are bottom tier.

Well, let me rephrase. I have yet to see balanced DE lists do well, regardless of allies. The only DE lists I see do well are the ones that are extreme. Invisible Beastpacks, Fortune'd/Invisibility Councils, these are very extreme lists that lots of armies and generals simply can't handle.

I think IG, SW, GK, Eldar, Tau, Nids can all function well on their own, for what thats worth.

I'm just going off tournament results, Other than Tau, Crons, and Nids, I have not seen an army without allies win the event, and othe rthan GK have not even really seen them place well.

SW on their own I don't think are very strong at this point, they just don't put out enough shots to be top Tier on their own.

All Nid lists that are successful are essentially extreme lists (psychoir), so then are they on the same tier as DE? What about Crons, Cron air is an extreme build. There are very few TAC lists these days.

All I'm saying is that being better with allies hardly makes them bottom tier, and their good builds being extreme does not make them bottom tier either.

Nid lists aren't extreme. They are usually well-balanced with a heavy troop presence, average shooting presence and above average combat presence. Completely different in everyway than a near indestructible deathstar.

And I agree, being better with allies isn't what makes them bad. What makes them bad is fragility. Their transports aren't good in 6th. Nerfs to OT hurt wyches and other assault units. Venoms, while impressive, aren't the bees knees these days. Tau, Eldar, Crons can put out similar firepower but with more durable platforms. Foot DE is problematic because a lot of the infantry units are still fairly expensive and with Tau running around expensive Xenos aren't good.

I think that only having 1 type of viable build (a deathstar no less) is telling of what "tier" they belong in. DE may work in a local, smaller community, but I think they'll have difficulty at any GT-level event due to hard counters, whether it be to their mech builds, or to their deathstars.

Except that DE have Won a Gt(Templecon), and Placed Well at another (adepticon), so I don't see how your reasoning holds. I'm not saying they are the best army. But you keep saying things like they have one Build. Essentially so do nids, and most Marine books (IG Blob + Insert Marine Book here).

Again I don't think they are top tier(which is what you get trying to compare them to Crons, Tau, and Eldar) but they are on a level with most other Books in the game.

I think this thread is ridiculous. DE are an amazing army with answers to pretty much everything they can encounter.

A TAC DE list against any other TAC list will usually be a pretty awesome battle....

What list won Templecon? Was it Sean Nayden's? Because he's the one who did well at Adepticon with the Beastpack.

Nids can have a fair bit more variety than you are giving them credit for, it's just that most people gravitate towards the one build (See MVBrandt's, its fairly different from your standard "netlist"). Flyrants, Swarmlord, Parasite, Doom, Ymgarals, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Gargs, Tervigons/Gants, Fexes, Trygons, Mawlocs, Biovores are all pretty good these days.

For me, a codex that needs to rely on gimmicks (I find psyker based Deathstars a bit gimmicky) to win, is largely noncompetitive. We agree to disagree on the subject.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd rather play Nids, Orks, Tau, Necrons, Eldar, SW, SM, IG, Daemons or CSM than DE. I think they are all better armies.

Yup, same list. As for the variety, while some of those things are good the Nid lists are all Psychoir builds with a few different side options. Most of the sucessful ones I see area actually much closer to the MvBrandt list. While they use some different units they funciton in a similar way.

As for rather playing them I'd rather Play against

Orks, Crons, Wolves, SM, IG, Daemons or CSM than DE. I think they are easier to deal with for me that a good Player with a good DE list. In fact I have not lost to SM or wolves or any non GK MEQ during 6th Ed. Most of the time I table them fairly easily. I think Wolves have some nice tools, but for the most part they are not scary like they were in 5th, so unless you are using them with IG blob, I really am not worried by them.

Lets put it this way. DE are very strong against lots of CSm builds, against nids, against Daemons, against MEQ builds. Pretty strong against Orks (Beast Pack build rolls orks easy).

I think New Tau and Eldar are bad Matchups and Crons is fairly even.

Puscifer wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
So, for those of you who are touting the success of DE, how do you deal with TEQ armies? Your poison weapons don't mean diddly against 2+ saves, and there's no way you have enough AP2 weapons to bring down all the TEQs you're going to face before they can wipe you.

DE can spam that much poison shots that we force failed armour saves. I've had my Deathwing tabled in three turns by this.

True, DE have a lot of problems but TEQ armies have never been one of them.

I think the Beastpack and Seer Council with Baron are both pretty nasty. But I don't think its enough to call the book, or army good. And the basis of the Psychoir Nid lists is really the Tervigon, which happens to be the best troops choice. I see a lot of variance in what people bring in the elites and HS slots.

I play Taudar, so DE might be my favorite matchup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And i'm surprised you see Nids lists that are more like Mikes..

I usually see:
2x Flyrant
2-3x Tervigon
Doom
HG
Biovores

So it then is just a personal way to see things, you play the worst matchup for DE, where as it is one of my worst matchups. I think the book is as good as most other books. Again, not the best book, but on par with most of the books out there. ( I think Only Crons, IG, TAu, Eldar are significantly better.)

Puscifer wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Maybe I don't notice because I play Dark Eldar with such a large number of tough units and did from the very start of the codex. My Urien build which is heavily melee oriented, still beats some serious you-know-what.

Combined arms is how i balance it. I have enough shooting to keep people scared of it but not enough to steal my melee oomph. Tightrope I know. But it wins way more than it loses so hooray.

This is how I'm planning my army to some extent.

I want a DE army that is different, but effective.

I'm thinking a massive unit of Grotesques, backed up by Blasterborn in venoms, Kabalites in Venoms and some Wraith allies. It will be a case of try and kill my army. They'll either be too fast for you to catch or too tough for you to deal with.

May I ask, how do you make your army that tough?

Dont have the list here BUT, roughly:

Bomber
1 wracks in venoms (hexrifle, gooey gun on wracks)
3 Wracks in Boats with the cannons on em (Hex rifle, gooey gun on wracks)
2 Blasterborn in venoms
Just one 4 Monkey beast unit with with 2 razorwing bases and 5 beast masters
7 grotesques
Urien

Thats roughly it

Personally, I'd advise against one massive unit of anything, as it helps your opponent to focus his fire. You want to have lots of opportunities so if one fails, you have fall backs. For that reason, multiple small units wherever possible. Perhaps that a little more difficult to do with grots though I'd still advise splitting them between 2 units at least, in a raider with trophies etc.

As Puscifer points out, the key to a Deathstar is synergism. You can't give two units of Grots Stealth, Hit and Run, PGL, Shrouded and (pick another Rune of Battle) at the same time. It then makes target priority super easy as your opponent just shoots the one that isn't buffed. However, you can do it to 10 Grots at once. Then you are hiding your HQs behind 30 T5 wounds of 2++ FNP goodness. You actually WANT the enemy to shoot at them. Because, baring ignores cover (which you'll still have T5 and FNP against), it's going to take about 270 wounds to get through all that Grot Meat, never mind the T5 and HQ wounds.

Then, you have a good delivery system for an HQ beat stick (which between Eldar and Dark Eldar you have a plethora of options to choose from). Think of the Grotstar as a big meaty Land Raider for your HQ beat stick, who can peal off and wreck face once you hit the lines. You can also peel off the Baron, and leave the Spiritseer behind to babysit the meat.

You also only take up one Elite slot that way, leaving more room for Trueborn or...MANDRAKES .

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Personally, I'd advise against one massive unit of anything, as it helps your opponent to focus his fire. You want to have lots of opportunities so if one fails, you have fall backs. For that reason, multiple small units wherever possible. Perhaps that a little more difficult to do with grots though I'd still advise splitting them between 2 units at least, in a raider with trophies etc.

As Puscifer points out, the key to a Deathstar is synergism. You can't give two units of Grots Stealth, Hit and Run, PGL, Shrouded and (pick another Rune of Battle) at the same time. It then makes target priority super easy as your opponent just shoots the one that isn't buffed. However, you can do it to 10 Grots at once. Then you are hiding your HQs behind 30 T5 wounds of 2++ FNP goodness. You actually WANT the enemy to shoot at them. Because, baring ignores cover (which you'll still have T5 and FNP against), it's going to take about 270 wounds to get through all that Grot Meat, never mind the T5 and HQ wounds.

Then, you have a good delivery system for an HQ beat stick (which between Eldar and Dark Eldar you have a plethora of options to choose from). Think of the Grotstar as a big meaty Land Raider for your HQ beat stick, who can peal off and wreck face once you hit the lines. You can also peel off the Baron, and leave the Spiritseer behind to babysit the meat.

You also only take up one Elite slot that way, leaving more room for Trueborn or...MANDRAKES .

Have a +1.

This unit is very very scary and players cannot ignore it. If they do, it wrecks your face. If you take it head on, it wrecks your face. Your only option is to run and put roadblocks up every turn.

So far, the list I have is...

Baron.
Spiritseer.
2 Haemonculi with Liquifiers.
8 Grotesques.

I might cut the Haemonculi, but they are adding additional liquifiers to a very strong unit. Might drop them for a beatstick Archon or Sliscus as he too will add tons to the army. I think Haemonculi for the fluff and a beatstick Archon for when you want to win. 8 Grotesques seem to be enough as 10 is somewhat unwieldy. That and I only have enough bits for 8.

As for the ally troops choices, are we all in agreement that it must be Wraiths with Scythes? They'll provide an adequate toughness 6 wall for the Grotstar to hide behind, will keep all but TH/SS Terminators away and will screw with your opponent's target priority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/536216.page

Posted my list up. Any comments and pointers would be welcome.

Powerguy wrote:
No army can rely on going first just to break even, its a recipe for disaster.

You are correct. So why build your DE to rely on going first? Alpha strike is a crutch that is blunted by going second or good terrain yet so many DE players build their army around that crucial first turn dice roll.

I prefer going second with my DE. I don't have to worry about seize the initiative, I get to see my opponents deployment and I have a stronger last turn denial capability.

Here's a bunch of battle reports of games against solid lists and reasonable opponents. Most of the time I go second without night fight. Sure these are not tournament results but what does that matter? Most of the posters complaining in this thread are saying they struggle to win at all with Dark Eldar when they go second in 6th edition! I don't see myself as being particular talented at 40k. So how come I can win consistently with Dark Eldar if they are "bottom tier" (without running a single venom, eldar allies, the baron or a death star)?

BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500
BR18: The Black Buzzards VS Ravenwing - 1500
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500
BR20: The Black Buzzards VS Tyranids - 1500
BR21: The Black Buzzards VS New Tau - 1500
BR22: The Black Buzzards VS Tau (Rematch) - 1500
BR23: The Black Buzzards VS Tau Mech/Riptide - 1500
BR25: The Black Buzzards VS Tau Mass Broadsides - 1500
BR26: The Black Buzzards VS Eldar Mech - 1500

Hope that helps.

Thanks Mush. Was looking for your sagely advice.

It's not so much sagely advice. It is common sense. DE win when played correctly ... that is using their superior mobility. We don't have to attack Teq ... we move away. We don't have to fear flyers ... we get into cc. See what Mush did to heldrakes. DE pick their battles and pull apart opponent's list with fast strikes and quick retreats. I could genuilely refute 90% of what has been critqued here about DE. DE players are well aware theat their transports are paper, that Wyches no longer are used for cc only that poison does not kill eveything. It is the synergy of speed, poison and darllight that works.

Those are entertaining reads, I have to buy me some bikes since those perform the best in your reports.

One thing that I noticed in the tau battle rep is that the tau list is illegal. The stealth suits have 3 members but 2 fusion blasters, can only have one per 3 members.

Still awesome and I don't think with what I have I can perform as well. I have to get some bikes since those are just amazing.

 ashikenshin wrote:
Those are entertaining reads, I have to buy me some bikes since those perform the best in your reports.

Thanks! Reavers are a load of fun this edition.

 ashikenshin wrote:
TOne thing that I noticed in the tau battle rep is that the tau list is illegal. The stealth suits have 3 members but 2 fusion blasters, can only have one per 3 members.

They are squads of 6: 3 with burst cannons, 2 with fusion blasters, 1 shas'vre with burst cannon. It's just the way I wrote it out which is confusing (but I find it easier to do it that way with all the different gear tau suits can have!).

Ah i get it now still amazing battle reps, yours and the skared cast videos have me buying lots of dark eldar stuff (and painting it too)

Just be wary of copying net lists. You cannot pick up Mush's list or Sean's list and think it is auto win time. I like Reavers. I don't use them that often and I still win plenty of games.

When Sean played his beast pack I copied the list. I also had some pretty extensive discussions with Sean to learn how best to play the list. Still took a couple of games for me to realize its full power and then ... along comes a new codex. My first match against an IG gun line did not work well for me, lol. It was a winnable match but I made mistakes. I'm much better with beast packs now but I've moved on anyway.

You should note that any DE list takes a bit of practice to learn all its nuances. You will not just put these winning lists down on the table first time and win every game, lol. I'm a fairly experienced player. It took me three games to figure out how best to use my Reavers and honestly, I think even Mush will tell you, that you learn something new almost every match.

A good example of this is my new list using a seer council Deldar list. Getting the balance correct, understanding the immediate threats to the list, correctly choosing powers, etc. etc. all takes a bit of practice.

Yeah I don't copy net lists, mine includes 9 wyches with archon on a raider (i don't think anybody recomends doing this anymore) 10 warriors in raider, 2 ravagers and a lone talos (again usually netlists contain 2 or 3). A venom with incubi and what I want to buy now is: another raider, maybe a flyer and 6 bikes.

I usually play to lose (I rather my oponents have fun so they keep coming back) but it's nice to win sometimes

One thing I will ask Mush...

Would your army list benefit from MSU of Kabalites or Wychs on Venoms instead of Raiders?

I'm thinking less guys, more Venom, more shots?

I think they are mid teir. Eldar will decimate them if you a) know what you're doing and b) don't fall into the fire prism trap and c) bring enough str 6

I think they are mid teir. Eldar will decimate them if you a) know what you're doing and b) don't fall into the fire prism trap and c) bring enough str 6

Seriously. Did you read Mush's batrep against the new Eldar? Are we back to generalizing again? It is so easy to make these type of blanket statements not even knowing how Eldar will fare yet with their new codex. Let us see first if a 'pure' Eldar list wins any events. I'm not saying Elar are poor but there is a lot of hype that naturally surrounds the release of any new codex. DE have proved themselves tournament worthy many times already.

I just played a game vs DE.
http://theadventuresofeldar.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/fifth-game-with-new-codex/
There my own battle report.
Just because he won one against a stupid list (yes fire prisms are stupid, as is serpent spam). Eldar has never been able to stack just one type of unit and expect to win. you need to bring all the tools and use them accordingly. The same is true of DE. I'm not saying that DE is bad. I just think the Eldar player read some stuff on THE INTERWEBS and didn't think at all and it cost him getting his teeth kicked in.

I really don't know what I'm supposed to fear in the DE codex tbh. Vehicle Spam! Bring it. I pop av 10-12 Like its my job (b/c it is). Death star? So what? I use guardians as speed bumps and take out everything else or just out run it with Battle focus, while killing the other 1+K points of your army with my whole army (no i'm not dumb enough to take slow as hell wraithguard).

My point was, that DE has some hard, hard counters. Eldar is one. that prevents them from being top teir. However, they are still lethal if you don't know how to play vs them, even with matchups that favor the Non-DE player.

qballony wrote:
I just played a game vs DE.
http://theadventuresofeldar.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/fifth-game-with-new-codex/
There my own battle report.
Just because he won one against a stupid list (yes fire prisms are stupid, as is serpent spam). Eldar has never been able to stack just one type of unit and expect to win. you need to bring all the tools and use them accordingly. The same is true of DE. I'm not saying that DE is bad. I just think the Eldar player read some stuff on THE INTERWEBS and didn't think at all and it cost him getting his teeth kicked in.

My point was, that DE has some hard, hard counters. Eldar is one. that prevents them from being top teir. However, they are still lethal if you don't know how to play vs them, even with matchups that favor the Non-DE player.

This post goes against everything that is being said about both Eldar and Dark Eldar right now. Wave Serpents are very, very good, and so are Fire Prisms.

I use guardians as speed bumps and take out everything else or just out run it with Battle focus, while killing the other 1+K points of your army with my whole army (no i'm not dumb enough to take slow as hell wraithguard).

This is called "playing into your opponents hands." You've clearly never played a competent player with a Death Star before.

Yeah i have. I ran a harliestar. I won a lot, but i also lost too. Wave serpents Are good. But the thing with them is that spamming too much of any one element in an eldar list is dangerous. Running DAVU serpent spam is not wise imo. Also re:fireprisms...have you run any? for the same points you can get 2 walkers with 4 lances. What? a Fire prism will do better against Tanks? NO. TEQ? assume on a good day 3 hits with small blast (if you're opponent isn't brain dead) which is comporable to what you get with bs4 4 lances. Plus the lances instagib T4 multi wounds (Pallies/wraiths) MEQ? you mean the easiest thing in the eldar codex to deal with? okay yeah you got me there...Fire prisms are better vs MEQ but who cares? if you aren't able to wipe out MEQ with out them then you are doing something wrong.

The same reason Wave Serpents aren't the be all end all is that they are expensive for the REDUNDANCY of str 6/7 shooting. Which while nice to have gets diminishing returns after a while especially with armor saves. 10 guardians (delivered by said serpent) cost 90 points vs 135 serpents Guardians get 20 shots 13-14 hit, 2 "rend", and 4-5 wound = about 3 dead marines even with cover.

Now WS shoots TL SL bs 4 about 3-4 hits on average (3.5 mathwise) TLing the shield which averages 4.5 shots so we'll say 4-5. thats another 3-4 hits on average. AP what? yeah...so even ignoring cover/etc 6 (on the low end) averaging about 7-8 and on the high end 10 shots. 2's to wound so thats anywhere from 5-8 wounds on average. 3+ armor = 2 maybe 3 dead marines.

congrats 90 point guardians killed more than the ALMIGHTY WS. Not saying you shouldn't take WS, just saying there is a place and use for everything and so spamming one thing is not as effective for eldar as it is for other armies (if it is for them either is another debate, but i only speak from my experience).

And yeah deathstars can be nasty. agreed. But most of the time they are on foot. with battle focus on eldar now. you should never be caught by one at full strength. Thats how I always lost with the Harliestar. People would run and kite. Even with fleet/run/etc. It still takes on average 3-4 turns to get into combat which means your deathstar can only kill 2-3 units before game over. Because I mean really why Charge the death star and sacrafice yourself that way? so yeah....

Unless there is something I am missing I would love to hear your opinion other than BAD PLAYERS ARE BAD! and BUT THE INTERWEBS SAID THIS IS GOOD. so yeah play and analyze...do math...or just tell me I'm dumb with no facts...your choice.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

qballony wrote:
I just played a game vs DE.
http://theadventuresofeldar.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/fifth-game-with-new-codex/
There my own battle report.
Just because he won one against a stupid list (yes fire prisms are stupid, as is serpent spam). Eldar has never been able to stack just one type of unit and expect to win. you need to bring all the tools and use them accordingly. The same is true of DE. I'm not saying that DE is bad. I just think the Eldar player read some stuff on THE INTERWEBS and didn't think at all and it cost him getting his teeth kicked in.

My point was, that DE has some hard, hard counters. Eldar is one. that prevents them from being top teir. However, they are still lethal if you don't know how to play vs them, even with matchups that favor the Non-DE player.

This post goes against everything that is being said about both Eldar and Dark Eldar right now. Wave Serpents are very, very good, and so are Fire Prisms.

I'm not sure if that's what he's saying because he took 2 Serpents and no Fire Prisms. But I agree that Serpents and Fire Prisms are some of the most attractive choices in the book.

EDIT: nvm, that was what he was saying

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I use guardians as speed bumps and take out everything else or just out run it with Battle focus, while killing the other 1+K points of your army with my whole army (no i'm not dumb enough to take slow as hell wraithguard).

This is called "playing into your opponents hands." You've clearly never played a competent player with a Death Star before.

Hm, I'm fairly certain that if you are more mobile than the opponent's death star then this is the strongest strategy. Let the Death Star take 1 objective while you kill the rest of their army and take the rest. If you're not more mobile then you have to bubble wrap them with throwaway units to keep them off the rest of your army.



I've been a fan of gunboats since 3rd when gunboat/sniper/ravager was the only viable strategy. I think some things to remember in 6th is that the new rapid fire rules hurt DE transports because even if you plan to move to 24" and unload splinters at max range, then the enemy can just close 6" and fire back at max range. I do like the Raider though, just remember that the boat and the squad can fire at different targets now in order to maximize the efficiency of the unit (warriors at T and Raider at AV). I'd probably favour Raiders, but that has more to do with my preference for them then the efficacy of the units.

When looking at how splinters fare against MCs, remember that the 4+ to wound means that it's not harder to strip wounds off them than equivalent wounds of same-save infantry. So if an MC has 5W at 3+, then it's no harder to kill that than 5 marines. I'm not saying that makes it any easier but some people in this thread seem to make it sound like an impossible task and if that were true then DE wouldn't be able to kill anything with splinter fire. Another thing to remember is that splinter fire relies on RoF from similar weapons so cover and invulnerable saves don't mean much unless you're looking at really squishy models. So try to force the opponent to deploy long with objective placement then stack up on one side to refuse flank then kill the closest unit first. Use your Ravagers to take out their artillery if it's feasible.

EDIT2: Never forget about Night Fighting, you get free Night Vision and that can make a big difference if it comes up the first turn. If not, it might still be useful at the end so just don't forget it because it's free cover to squishy units.

I'm not sure where the DE stack up in a "tier" sense, but even if they're not top tier I don't think they've been completely relegated to the shelf yet.

fuhrmaaj makes good points. That is how you play a glass cannon.