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 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Just a question - why do you even care?

If your friend is doing it, throw some crap back on his army. He's playing Eldar, he's got the newest codex and plenty of new stuff for you to sling back. Just friendly sledging during a game.

If people you don't know playing another game are doing it, simply ignore them. It's not worth even noting what random neckbeards at your FLGS think if they're people you never interact with anyway.

Caring about what random grognards have to say is a surefire way to get annoyed with the overall hobby.

1: I hate being told the same thing over and over again.
2: I hate being made to feel bad for the army i play
3: These are regular clubbers who i have to deal with every week, I wish they wouldnt tell the new guys "Tau is evil"

This all seems a lot like what drove me away from my old FLGS back in 5th. I got sick of the basement dwellers just walking up to me in the middle of a game to tell me my army was gak, then bitch and moan about how I was cheating with JSJ when I kicked their asses or when I just Castled up in a corner and shot them.

Right now, since the only friends I had at that Store now play PP games or they moved out of state, I've been trying to start a new group locally( oh and to go to that store, I had to drive an hour) and, while now I have to help the new store owner with the "get people interested so GW will sell to me" bit and quite frankly I'm pretty lazy and it's more work than I want to do,the owner's a friend of mine and the 4-5 new guys looking into the game are really enjoying it.

Story time is over. The main reason you find the hate is because a large portion of people, normal people and basement dwellers alike, hate Tau. They don't fit into what they think is 40k.

The only difference is the basement dwellers do not understand how to socialize with people, and while they think they are being funny, by telling you your army is gak(Tau players from 5th-new book) or telling you your army is broken and just talk gak to you all evening.

So I impart you with the knowledge of my Elders, Tell them to feth off, ignore them, or look for a new place to hang out. No matter what anyone else has said about "oh just wait it out, it'll stop". It won't Because people do not like Tau. Space Marines could get 2+ armor, T5, and 3+ FNP on all Marines and the unsavory part of the playerbase would just bitch about your Plasma Guns.

"What do you mean your plamsa doesnt get hot?" lol

The problem with Tau is they have so many tools wrapped into the same platform. Most armies dont have a single instance of the abilities that tau can spam. Ignore cover, ignore LOS, ignore night fighting, ignore blind, ignore low BS problems, ect. They have all these tools wrapped into just a few units. Things like marker drone units+ drone controller commander w iridium are INCREDIBLY cheap, incredibly durable, and 6+ marker lights firing at BS5 is incredibly reliable. You can pretty much single out one unit on the board to die, no matter what your opponent says.

The only save that is at all useful vs tau is an inv. However, fewer and fewer armies have good inv saves. Especially on troops. Last game i played vs tau i lost almost all of my troops in one turn vs two ion riptides and markers. No matter where i hid my units the tau player could out-range, outmaneuver, or simply ignore my ability to hide units, even when i was playing mech eldar. Ended up losing primary victory condition due to him just targeting the vehicle my last jetbike was hiding behind with a blast and letting that do the work.

Their one weakness is lack of melee. However, very, very few tourney armies have anything melee anyways. Melee is largely dead. The only things that had survived 6th edition were cover-based deathstars like beast pack or harlequin star, are countered and nerfed to hell respectively. Then they have one of, if not the best ally selection due to eldar BB. They are one of the easiest armies to cover all their own bases in one army. There isnt too much besides maybe russ gunline guard or wraith spam that can do much to tau, but even then they have a decent chance depending on how play decisions.

Wraith-spam doesn't do it, they'll kill almost all of them before they get there, then kill the rest with supporting fire.

Your troops shouldnt be getting knocked out that easily by IonTides. Do you not space your models properly? Max 2" coherency in a good formation and he can only hit ~4 models.

max spacing is nice, but mech eldar takes up a lot of space already. Spacing out models when you have 3-6 vehicles already crowding your deployment is nearly impossible. Also, wrecked/exploded vehicles dont give much of a chance to space models out. He just kept nova charging and firing at troops, not caring if it scattered onto vehicles because he could damage those also. Eventually won only 2ndary because i took out his marker lights and my mantle autarch took out 3 fire warrior squads alone. However, i could not have played that game much differently to improve what happened. Only thing diffirent was maybe one of his riptides going down earlier to the silly number of wounds i put on it after killing his troops, but that still wouldnt have changed much.

Purifier wrote: he always cracks out the "if you get into CC I'm screwed!"
More often than not in games against him I do not manage to get into a single close combat. What does it matter if you're weak in CC if you plow down everything I have trying to get there?

And even if you somehow survive against the gagillion things that make it so you'll never get into close combat, it's now no longer to say that tau are screwed once you get into CC.

Even ignoring the fact that 40k rewards the use of speedbumps, tau have the riptide now - something which I've seen take stuff down in close combat on more than one occasion.

Vineheart01 wrote:Tau are, as of right now, the only race that the average well-rounded list tends to counter the majority of FOTM lists going around.

And that might be fine, except that, as others have mentioned, what makes them good vs. certain cheese lists make them good against anything else. Yeah, they can pick apart a necron bakery, but those same things make it basically pointless to run a regular mech list. Good luck playing rhinos or chimeras when they have the ability to throw down those same units en masse when they're capable of flying. Plus, it really is pointless to play horde armies against them either.

I think what you're really looking for is something like dark eldar. splinter/blaster spam and poison can handle anything FotM at the moment, but at least most armies get to actually play a game against them.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Personally as an Ork player I've put my Orks on Hiatus till our Codex creep

I'd highly disagree with the idea that tau power has to do with codex creep. Firstly, codex creep is only true if every codex is incrementally more powerful than the previous. Yes, we have tau the way we do, but we also have DA and CSM the way they are.

Secondly, I think this is idiosynchratic. You can have a couple of wins in a row before just coming out with a somewhat crummy codex, and that has nothing to do with creep. Furthermore, this problem we're talking about has existed since long before their current codex.

Messy0 wrote: thats why i love Tau. You really can shut down the enemy if everything goes right.

You love tau most when your opponents have the least fun? Or is it that winning is more important than having an enjoyable experience?

Because what I'm talking about isn't a matter of winning or losing. I've lost several games that I've enjoyed more than the wins I've had against tau. Getting shut down right away without getting to do anything doesn't sound like a game to me, as games require a bit of back and forth, and both players doing stuff. You having your way with someone while they don't have much option than to just sort of sit there and take it sounds more like bullying than playing.

They're just the most recent dex and some people haven't adjusted strategies and armies to combat it. There is always hate for the latest armies because they are OMFG SO OP for a few months until people learn how to play against them.

 Gandohar wrote:
They're just the most recent dex and some people haven't adjusted strategies and armies to combat it. There is always hate for the latest armies because they are OMFG SO OP for a few months until people learn how to play against them.

Cough cough *eldar* cough...

You play IG?

Since 5th, my least favorite army to play against is IG. No one likes playing against giant blobs of troops, or a field full of AV12 tanks.

I'd much rather play vs a Tau player any day of the week.

LValx wrote:You play IG?

Since 5th, my least favorite army to play against is IG. No one likes playing against giant blobs of troops, or a field full of AV12 tanks.

I'd much rather play vs a Tau player any day of the week.

Argument from incredulity, argument ad hominem, and argument ad populum, all in a few sentences. Wow.

That's about as silly as saying "Why would you want to be such an idiot by disagreeing with all the cool kids who agree that tau sucks".

I have to mention, I do have a loathing against playing Tau, and me and Ailaros are pretty agreed on why this is. Not being allowed to actually play the game is just less fun than being stomped.

That said, I have never attempted to tell my friend to stop playing Tau or ever said I wouldn't play him. (I wouldn't play messy0, but that's because of his philosophy of how it's all a good thing.)

After a game, me and my friends grab a bite to eat and maybe play some Talisman or something else, while talking about the game, and while my Tau friend does enjoy slapping us around, we have serious discussions on how we could have done better and how we would ever be able to counter Tau, and he is as much a part of trying to help us counter them as anyone else.

When we talk after the game, we might aswell be talking about some other people's game. It's all very objective. We all try to think of different things and he throws in his expertise with the statlines and counter moves etc if the rest of us get anything wrong.

He'll never throw a game just because he won the previous few, but he's genuinly hoping we can find ways to counter him. And that part of it is fun.

If you can play with the right people, even playing against the most boring army to face has its silver lining.

 Ailaros wrote:
*Snip*

I'm in your boat, even when people get steamrolled by my model spam tyranid list (sure you can kill fifty Gants, oh look here's fifty one more) where the entire board gets trampled underfoot by Tyranids large and small, they still had fun because they still probably killed dozens if not over a hundred of my models. With the Tau I can't hide behind cover because they ignore it, I can't assault because their overwatch means anything that tries dies. I can't win a shooting contest because they can shoot farther with higher strength shots with greater accuracy. I can't outmaneuver them because everything that wants to move either has a jet pack or is a skimmer. Nightfish? Oh look everything has blacksun filters nevermind. Deep strike? Eat interceptor shots Y'he scum! Flying circus? One skyfire shot sends my fliers crashing down.

Overall fighting the Tau is a soul draining experience.

Which is probably why my wife has a Tau army.

 Ailaros wrote:

LValx wrote:You play IG?

Since 5th, my least favorite army to play against is IG. No one likes playing against giant blobs of troops, or a field full of AV12 tanks.

I'd much rather play vs a Tau player any day of the week.

Argument from incredulity, argument ad hominem, and argument ad populum, all in a few sentences. Wow.

That's about as silly as saying "Why would you want to be such an idiot by disagreeing with all the cool kids who agree that tau sucks".

I was being a bit funny, but I guess its hard to be sarcastic over the internets.

Anyway, I was not criticizing all your anti-Tau arguments, just pointing out that the "Tau are unfun to play vs" criticism is not a good one. IG function similarly to Tau, insofar as they both tend to be fairly static and shooting based. Riptides and Crisis suits are likely to be the only JSJ units you'll encounter. The HS options (Broadsides, Skyrays, Hammerheads) will most likely be standing still, just like the majority of other shooting units in the game.

"I've lost several games that I've enjoyed more than the wins I've had against tau. Getting shut down right away without getting to do anything doesn't sound like a game to me, as games require a bit of back and forth, and both players doing stuff. You having your way with someone while they don't have much option than to just sort of sit there and take it sounds more like bullying than playing."
This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.

 LValx wrote:
This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.

No. They can't.

This kinda reminds me of when Necrons got updated in 5th.

They got a slew of great wargear that gave a ton of strange abilities and no one really knew what to do about it.

"all terrain is difficult, and all difficult terrain is dangerous, I can make night fighting during every one of your turns, I can start the game with nightfighting and hit all of your guys with lighting just because my HQ exists, I can steal your Beatstick HQ/MC and use him against you." So on and so forth.

I remember playing Necrons was pretty rough in the beginning. It still is, but that's more because of all their flyers and not the crazy wargear/abilities.

 Kain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
*Snip*

I'm in your boat, even when people get steamrolled by my model spam tyranid list (sure you can kill fifty Gants, oh look here's fifty one more) where the entire board gets trampled underfoot by Tyranids large and small, they still had fun because they still probably killed dozens if not over a hundred of my models. With the Tau I can't hide behind cover because they ignore it, I can't assault because their overwatch means anything that tries dies. I can't win a shooting contest because they can shoot farther with higher strength shots with greater accuracy. I can't outmaneuver them because everything that wants to move either has a jet pack or is a skimmer. Nightfish? Oh look everything has blacksun filters nevermind. Deep strike? Eat interceptor shots Y'he scum! Flying circus? One skyfire shot sends my fliers crashing down.

Overall fighting the Tau is a soul draining experience.

Which is probably why my wife has a Tau army.

dayfish, fighter of the nightfish

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
*Snip*

I'm in your boat, even when people get steamrolled by my model spam tyranid list (sure you can kill fifty Gants, oh look here's fifty one more) where the entire board gets trampled underfoot by Tyranids large and small, they still had fun because they still probably killed dozens if not over a hundred of my models. With the Tau I can't hide behind cover because they ignore it, I can't assault because their overwatch means anything that tries dies. I can't win a shooting contest because they can shoot farther with higher strength shots with greater accuracy. I can't outmaneuver them because everything that wants to move either has a jet pack or is a skimmer. Nightfish? Oh look everything has blacksun filters nevermind. Deep strike? Eat interceptor shots Y'he scum! Flying circus? One skyfire shot sends my fliers crashing down.

Overall fighting the Tau is a soul draining experience.

Which is probably why my wife has a Tau army.

dayfish, fighter of the nightfish

Sorry, couldn't resist.

CURSE YOU HANDS!

Tau was my first army back with the original "codex: Tau". I loved their fluff and loved their shooting, always thought close combat was silly in the future. It's kind of depressing actually, because I keep wishing my army was worse... at this point I can't actually get a game in because all the friends I usually play with don't want to play with me anymore.

I guess I'll go back to the old Tau empire codex from 4th edition. At least I'll be able to play then.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Tau was my first army back with the original "codex: Tau". I loved their fluff and loved their shooting, always thought close combat was silly in the future. It's kind of depressing actually, because I keep wishing my army was worse... at this point I can't actually get a game in because all the friends I usually play with don't want to play with me anymore.

I guess I'll go back to the old Tau empire codex from 4th edition. At least I'll be able to play then.

Try Vassal. There you don't need any friends!

Although entirely too many people recognize me on sight there.

Tau have too many gimmicks is the problem. mass skyfire? Ok. mass Interceptor? ok. Mass overwatch? Ok. Mass firepower? Ok.

Having all of the above? Not ok... Cover ignoring is one thing, and I used to hide out of LoS. That doesn't work anymore. I used to get the jump on his army by deepstriking mass units. Yeah nope.

BUT Tau are not the end all. They're possibly the best current army but not unbeatable. Tau still suffer from large blasts as they now need to bunch up in order to avoid assaults. As a matter of fact, I'm considering taking a Mawloc! Isn't that a shocker? But, gotta adapt to the changes.

 Kain wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Tau was my first army back with the original "codex: Tau". I loved their fluff and loved their shooting, always thought close combat was silly in the future. It's kind of depressing actually, because I keep wishing my army was worse... at this point I can't actually get a game in because all the friends I usually play with don't want to play with me anymore.

I guess I'll go back to the old Tau empire codex from 4th edition. At least I'll be able to play then.

Try Vassal. There you don't need any friends!

Although entirely too many people recognize me on sight there.

I use vassal!

The dice algorithms hate me

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Tau was my first army back with the original "codex: Tau". I loved their fluff and loved their shooting, always thought close combat was silly in the future. It's kind of depressing actually, because I keep wishing my army was worse... at this point I can't actually get a game in because all the friends I usually play with don't want to play with me anymore.

I guess I'll go back to the old Tau empire codex from 4th edition. At least I'll be able to play then.

Try Vassal. There you don't need any friends!

Although entirely too many people recognize me on sight there.

I use vassal!

The dice algorithms hate me

I've never rolled better than a four for initiative.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
S, In my game tonight i was playing tau v. eldar i kept hearing tau hate. Like how i can ignore cover, how i dont have the things modeled on, I do BTW, but certain things like EWO or MSS or Command and control node don't have official war gear. The guy was nice and a little frustrated but he is a good friend so i gave him a break. But still the table behind me(Necron v Eldar) I kept hearing tau trash, how we rendered his flyers obsolete, how we killed 600pts in one shot and so forth.
Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?

It's that evil combo of new book syndrome (Cool units that suffer both power creep and lack of player comprehension as to there weaknesses) and many tau units having the hard counter to a fair few of the more traditional power gaming armies.

And If there is one thing years of wargaming has taught me, nobody is a worse loser than a power gamer.

I just want to point out real quick:

- 90% of Tau units are BS3 and BS2
- The main way to increase BS and remove cover is to use markerlights (pathfinders & drones who themselves are BS3 and BS2)

A few arguments I'm reading are making it sound like Tau can remove all your cover and shoot at BS 4/5 every turn. This isn't likely unless the dice are very one sided OR your Tau opponent is spamming markerlights everywhere - in which case there are less damage dealing weapons.

Terrain blocking LoS also makes a big difference.

 jifel wrote:
too many gimmicks

Tell that to Necrons.

mass av13
mass flyers with almost no drawbacks
mass high straight weapons
mass free glancing weapons
mass better than FNP res protocol

Honestly a lot of the complaints that i hear make no sense and i think people are ether getting cheated or just not paying attention.

You cant ignore Line of sight en mass unless you take a ton of smart missile systems which are still only s5a5 and only at 30" pretty much only on vehicles which for whatever reason some people think are bad now due to our loss of vehicle multi trackers

Seeker missiles still require another squad to lase the target to shoot them off for ignore cover/los

our rail guns got mostly neutered to st 8, so av 14 pretty much wrecks us unless we commit suicide melta units. (as with most other armies)

our access to interceptor Though great still have that draw back of a turn and a half of no shooting. which is usually on guns that you want shooting the whole game.

but haters gonna hate

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Because it's easier for your opponent to bitch about your codex than internalize & realize he needs to perform better. I will admit there are a few exceptions such as Cronair, older codexes that don't have access to skyfire will really struggle against it. Notably Dark Eldar, unless they buy the defense line the only challenge they have is their own flyers which once shot down leaves them wide open.

Also the "Model is not WYSWIG" I have found to be an irrelevant argument. I will make all my models 100% WYSWIG when GW provides me with 100% of the bits I need to do it in every kit. I don't feel I should have to pay extra for bits that should be included in the kit.

Surely WYSWYG is not the point, as all wargear taken would be on your army list for your opponent to look at prior to the battle so that excuse don't fly with me.

As you say GW don't always provide all the bitz for identifying wargear. great example being iridium armour upgrade. based on WYSWYG i should kit bash the new commander model to signify this and probably make the model look worse?

No way Jose.

Iridium armor always has this miniature: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tau/TAU-BATTLESUITS-AND-DRONES/XV89-CRISIS-BATTLESUIT.html

It's not as fancy as the crisis commander but it's actually less expensive.

the WYSIWYG was an odd complaint, because what i took has no official war gear look

 gossipmeng wrote:
...OR your Tau opponent is spamming markerlights everywhere

A Tau army with less than 15 markerlights is in fact an Imperial Guard army in disguise and not a Tau army . I usually bring ~25 to feel really Tau.


Also, I think the main problem with Tau is that it can hard-counter the 6th edition meta very well: it can kill masses of infantry models, it can wreck flyers, it can negate cover (say goodbye to your ADL) and it can play the gunline like no other army.

To bring in another game the tau to me feel like a hard counter blue control deck from Magic. Yes the game sucks when you cannot do anything( and i hate blue counter decks with a passion) but can be beaten by brining more threats than they can deal with. All it is is target saturation. If I do not deal with this now it will wreck me all the while your hitting the other flank with more heavy hitters.