Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration will even things out and have the Tau crying once again about how their codex is not powerful enough.

For orks this would be Rocks/drop pods, space marines should get cheaper Vanguard with a Captain that also has the abitliy.
.
I use to have a Tau army but I got so much hate for them that I sold them cause it took the fun out of playing. Although these same people do not mind playing my Ork army who usually found themselves with no way to destroy a two land raiders or have any anti-psycher capabilities. Most armys have crazy cheese to them, except orks because there random and i play them. Nobody complains how an assault land raider which is suppose to be huge can go flat-out 12 inch and assault with 14 all around armour while my trukks at max can only go 13 with red paint and assulte even though their considered fast vehicles and have paper armor

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration.

But then you'd have the old problem of melee armies getting to one unit unchallenged and slaughtering the rest from there. Back in 4th there were armies that never took a shot before they had slaughtered all you had. Sure, no Overwatch but they also had Consolidate into the next CC. Not wishing for a return to that crap.

Because Tau is a horrid army, and anyone playing are in most cases around where I dwell utter nutcases who drones on and on about their army having this and having that. And never seems to grasp the fact that everybody else dont really care for our anime styled child army

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration will even things out and have the Tau crying once again about how their codex is not powerful enough.

Yeah, because Tau is completely devoid of Interceptor weapons and has terrible Overwatch capabilities . So yeah, unless you have no-scatter DS-ing melee units who can consolidate from combat to combat and are super resilient (and can negate random charge length), the Tau will be fine. If you had these units, the Tau would be screwed, but the other armies too (especially the IG).

Spetulhu wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration.

But then you'd have the old problem of melee armies getting to one unit unchallenged and slaughtering the rest from there. Back in 4th there were armies that never took a shot before they had slaughtered all you had. Sure, no Overwatch but they also had Consolidate into the next CC. Not wishing for a return to that crap.

Im not saying all deep strike unites like the old codex but an elect few like kommandos and Vanguard. With this you could hold them in reserve until a sweet spot opens up, keeping your opponent on their feet. Also you have to remember that your deep striking team can scatter and not make assault distance, and when your playing the Tau those unites are on a suicide run cause there gonna be dead next turn no matter what. But overall they would give you good options for distraction and actually make the Tau player do more then turtling.

Tau is a pretty ungratifying army to play against. Their turns take too long (though that could be my experience) and they are as much of a boring "point and click" army as IG are.

Combine that with the hatefest that the newest codex always gets, and it's no surprise you see what you do.

 Purifier wrote:

 LValx wrote:
This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.

No. They can't.

I disagree.

Nids can do it with tons of psychic buffs and a mass amount of bodies and troops.

IG can do it by bringing 10+ AV12 Hulls.

Played Mechdar yet?

triple Heldrakes!

Seer council with psychic support.

Invisible or Fortuned Beastpack

Paladins. Or Triple teleporting DK.

Massed Flyer Necrons, or 18 Wraith Necrons.

200+ Orks, or 5 Battlewagons.

2++ rerollable Screamers for Daemons.

Triple LR Dakka Banner DA and Ravenwing with bolter banner.

So the only armies that really don't seem to have an extreme build are SoB and BT. I'd argue that every other codex can field some very, very dangerous and extreme combos that will leave plenty opponents feeling helpless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
6th has allowed so many extreme combinations that even "lesser" codices can field some ridiculous lists. It makes it much more difficult to build a balanced list b ecause the number of different things you have to deal with has increased so much.

dont forget Fang of the Wolf lord, I hate that power

What's the Dark Eldar list that prevents others from doing anything?

 tanuvein wrote:
What's the Dark Eldar list that prevents others from doing anything?

Invisible Beastpacks will roll players who dont have ignores cover shooting or templates (pretty much all SM variants, Orks, Nids). Now that Fortune can be cast on DE units, you could also Fortune a beastpack put Baron up front to tank with his 2++ for as long as possible, then get into combat and beat face.

DE/Eldar deathstar combinations can leave opposing players feeling very, very helpless. They are not fun at all to play against. Thankfully they generally are a bit luck reliant due to needing the correct psychic powers. Read some of JY2's batreps if you are interested. My blog-mate also was playing the old Eldar seer council with invisibility and fortune and it was extremely hard on most opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And none of those lists were posted as lists that can force ALL opponents to do nothing.

The idea is that each of those lists is extreme enough to make a good amount of opponents feel helpless.

I.e., Marine player who plays vs. Triple Drakes. Very easy to feel helpless in that situation.

Or Nids vs Venom spam DE. Good luck.

Foot Orks vs. Mech guard with triple Manticores.

Lots of examples where some armies just cannot handle other armies and will therefore end up feeling a bit helpless.

Are people really crying this much about SMS(among other things of course but really? SMS?) Your getting shot at by less than 4 FW in terms of strength. It just seems a silly thing to complain about, i'd be more upset with hive guard personally lol

Seeing a lot of Tau gunlines? Start taking artillery units!! Pretty sure just about every army has some form of them(and for the ones that dont everyone seems to love taking IG allies). Its not like they are wasted against non gunlines as they will still do damage but if you are having a hard time with something bunched up in a corner then eliminate that corner with the one thing designed for it. Force your tau enemy to move around and be uncomfortable on the battlefield!

Though, I play tau, and im not a fan so much of the static gunline, i refuse to ever take an ADL or a bastion, and i love my stealthsuits! Ive havent had a blow out of a game yet!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also dont try to 'deny' your army when i play, I simply try to swoop in and murder your face! Im always trying to table someone rather than hide on an objective and sit and wait for my opponent to come to me, like many have said, its boring!

 LValx wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 LValx wrote:
This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.

No. They can't.

I disagree.

Nids can do it with tons of psychic buffs and a mass amount of bodies and troops.

IG can do it by bringing 10+ AV12 Hulls.

Played Mechdar yet?

triple Heldrakes!

Seer council with psychic support.

Invisible or Fortuned Beastpack

Paladins. Or Triple teleporting DK.

Massed Flyer Necrons, or 18 Wraith Necrons.

200+ Orks, or 5 Battlewagons.

2++ rerollable Screamers for Daemons.

Triple LR Dakka Banner DA and Ravenwing with bolter banner.

So the only armies that really don't seem to have an extreme build are SoB and BT. I'd argue that every other codex can field some very, very dangerous and extreme combos that will leave plenty opponents feeling helpless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
6th has allowed so many extreme combinations that even "lesser" codices can field some ridiculous lists. It makes it much more difficult to build a balanced list b ecause the number of different things you have to deal with has increased so much.

I disagree with your disagreeal
I played a guy that goes all out to find the cheesiest nid lists he can to secure wins. His list had everything you mention. I got to fight him and show him that mass nids trampling down on a small Paladin squad only looks cool until the paladins have shown why they are the god damn chosen. I lost, but it was a fun game. Lots of nid genocide before they took me down.

Lots of people can glance out AV12. I sure can on GK. If I can pop half of them before they kill me, we've had a good game!

No, I haven't played mechdar. I doubt they can shoot me out/table me before one of my units can get into combat or even in a decent firing position though.

Hooray for helldrakes! Atleast I get to fight the rest of your army as they fly over head!

Seer council with psychic support is broken good!.. BUT IT'S NOT THE WHOLE ARMY! They wreak havoc, but I get to fight.

Do you know what those beastpacks do? They come to me and fight me! Ok, so missing them isn't that fun, but I can do the same back at them for giggles.

Yeah, tripple teleports are awesome. They are, however, at the end of the day, almost only space marines though, and at a cost. You can fight them, they will just decide where you fight.

Yep, all flyer necron squad. I'll give you that one. But I don't see how "Tau are like the cheesiest way of playing necron!" is a feather in their hat.

200 orks in wagons, man I've never had so much fun getting trampled.

Screamers are the whole army then? No.

... Really? DA? Is ANYONE actually scarred by anything they can field?

So that's it. I disagree with all but one of your statements.
But I know why. You have been reading this, no matter how many times I have said that wasn't it, as whine against a powerful army. So you bring up a bunch of powerful things from other armies.
Because you completely ignore what you don't want to read.

Look, it's not that they are powerful. I have nothing against getting destroyed. I have nothing against an army being more powerful than mine. Hell, I'm changing to SoB from GK. You think I CARE if my army is on par with the rest?
Tau are terrible to face because they completely shut you down with just about any build they bring. Because they only really have two types of build. Either you field a gunline, or you field troops that can shoot and get out of the way. And in the end, those are the same bloody thing. The end result is that you run around trying to get to them in some stupid attempt to reenact Benny Hill, while accomplishing nothing.

I leave games against Tau feeling like I just set up my guys and let the Tau player roll a bunch of dice. The End.

No other army, with the possible exception of Necron Flyer lists which makes me feel like I'm Mr Miyagi in that scene from karate kid trying to catch a fly with chopsticks, has ever made me feel like the game was so utterly useless.

So: I disagree with almost everything you said.

Well... SMS are a bit broken. They dont need LOS and fully ignore cover. HG don't ignore cover fully, just intervening. Pretty substantial difference.

Combine that with the fact that Tau can field SMSs in a variety of slots and you have a problem, especially for Xenos players.

Consider this:
3x Riptide with HBC/SMS
3x3 Broadsides with HYMP/SMS

Thats a possible 60 SMS shots (assuming all Riptides are able to charge theirs). That is actually quite absurd. Especially late in the game when you are trying to stay alive.

I'm not advocating taking that build, but i'm sure someone has fielded it, or others will in the future.

It's a legitimate gripe, IMO.

 Purifier wrote:

 LValx wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 LValx wrote:
This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.

No. They can't.

I disagree.

Nids can do it with tons of psychic buffs and a mass amount of bodies and troops.

IG can do it by bringing 10+ AV12 Hulls.

Played Mechdar yet?

triple Heldrakes!

Seer council with psychic support.

Invisible or Fortuned Beastpack

Paladins. Or Triple teleporting DK.

Massed Flyer Necrons, or 18 Wraith Necrons.

200+ Orks, or 5 Battlewagons.

2++ rerollable Screamers for Daemons.

Triple LR Dakka Banner DA and Ravenwing with bolter banner.

So the only armies that really don't seem to have an extreme build are SoB and BT. I'd argue that every other codex can field some very, very dangerous and extreme combos that will leave plenty opponents feeling helpless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
6th has allowed so many extreme combinations that even "lesser" codices can field some ridiculous lists. It makes it much more difficult to build a balanced list b ecause the number of different things you have to deal with has increased so much.

I disagree with your disagreeal
I played a guy that goes all out to find the cheesiest nid lists he can to secure wins. His list had everything you mention. I got to fight him and show him that mass nids trampling down on a small Paladin squad only looks cool until the paladins have shown why they are the god damn chosen. I lost, but it was a fun game. Lots of nid genocide before they took me down.

Lots of people can glance out AV12. I sure can on GK. If I can pop half of them before they kill me, we've had a good game!

No, I haven't played mechdar. I doubt they can shoot me out/table me before one of my units can get into combat or even in a decent firing position though.

Hooray for helldrakes! Atleast I get to fight the rest of your army as they fly over head!

Seer council with psychic support is broken good!.. BUT IT'S NOT THE WHOLE ARMY! They wreak havoc, but I get to fight.

Do you know what those beastpacks do? They come to me and fight me! Ok, so missing them isn't that fun, but I can do the same back at them for giggles.

Yeah, tripple teleports are awesome. They are, however, at the end of the day, almost only space marines though, and at a cost. You can fight them, they will just decide where you fight.

Yep, all flyer necron squad. I'll give you that one. But I don't see how "Tau are like the cheesiest way of playing necron!" is a feather in their hat.

200 orks in wagons, man I've never had so much fun getting trampled.

Screamers are the whole army then? No.

... Really? DA? Is ANYONE actually scarred by anything they can field?

So that's it. I disagree with all but one of your statements.
But I know why. You have been reading this, no matter how many times I have said that wasn't it, as whine against a powerful army. So you bring up a bunch of powerful things from other armies.
Because you completely ignore what you don't want to read.

Look, it's not that they are powerful. I have nothing against getting destroyed. I have nothing against an army being more powerful than mine. Hell, I'm changing to SoB from GK. You think I CARE if my army is on par with the rest?
Tau are terrible to face because they completely shut you down with just about any build they bring. Because they only really have two types of build. Either you field a gunline, or you field troops that can shoot and get out of the way. And in the end, those are the same bloody thing. The end result is that you run around trying to get to them in some stupid attempt to reenact Benny Hill, while accomplishing nothing.

I leave games against Tau feeling like I just set up my guys and let the Tau player roll a bunch of dice. The End.

No other army, with the possible exception of Necron Flyer lists which makes me feel like I'm Mr Miyagi in that scene from karate kid trying to catch a fly with chopsticks, has ever made me feel like the game was so utterly useless.

So: I disagree with almost everything you said.

You missed my point.

My only point was that almost every army can field a list that will leave at least some possible opponents feeling helpless.

I'm not saying that Nids, or DE, or Eldar make everyone feel helpless. But certain armies they do. Orks can do almost nothing to Serpents, Nids as well, etc.

Not everyone is helpless against Tau.

IG Artillery can do a number on them. Jaws of the World Wolf is a huge PITA for Tau to deal with, especially if the rest of the list is well formulated. Tau Gunlines will have a hard time dealing with things like 2++ Rerollable Screamers of Tzeentch or Fortuned Councils/Beastpacks. They'll also have a difficult time with FMC lists that get lucky and roll lots of Iron Arms or good gifts. Even Nids can mess up gunline Tau (I know because I play them), if you get the correct powers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
In sum: Tau are very, very good. And very, very difficult to beat if built properly. You will have to adapt to beat them.

I would assume it's people just don't enjoy playing against gunlines in general, particularly against one that can handle the strategies commonly used against gunlines (deep striking, hugging cover, etc)

It's not very gratifying to march across the board removing your casualties without much recourse.

BrotherChaplinMalus wrote:
To bring in another game the tau to me feel like a hard counter blue control deck from Magic. Yes the game sucks when you cannot do anything( and i hate blue counter decks with a passion) but can be beaten by brining more threats than they can deal with. All it is is target saturation. If I do not deal with this now it will wreck me all the while your hitting the other flank with more heavy hitters.

What a coincidence, if I played magic I'd run blue/black infect with control.

A lot of the Tau lists I see here on Dakka would probably have a difficult time beating 60 Hounds. Or 5 Battlewagons. Or 3 LRs with the right contents.

LValx wrote:I was being a bit funny, but I guess its hard to be sarcastic over the internets.

Sorry, my bad.

LValx wrote:Anyway, I was not criticizing all your anti-Tau arguments, just pointing out that the "Tau are unfun to play vs" criticism is not a good one. IG function similarly to Tau, insofar as they both tend to be fairly static and shooting based.

Actually, I'd take that the other way around. The existence of guard gunlines doesn't make tau fun to play against. The existence of guard being able to play like tau means you can build a guard army that's un-fun to play against.

Moreover, and I guess time will tell on this one, but I question whether it's actually possible to do with the tau codex. I mean, I did well enough over the last year, and I didn't use a single manticore or vendetta or FW unit. In several different play styles. For tau players, at least in my area, the people all started with gunlines, spent a game or two trying something different like farsight bomb, only to see their armies fall flat on their faces and rush back immediately to running gunlines again.

LValx wrote:Thats a possible 60 SMS shots (assuming all Riptides are able to charge theirs). That is actually quite absurd. Especially late in the game when you are trying to stay alive.

Or killing stuff late game. As best I can recall, there are zero weapons in the game that can target a single model hiding near an objective out of LOS and not on the top level of a ruin. Well, except SMS...

I've seen more than one game be decided by a game of "hide the guardsman" where the only way of handling it is with good mobility and smart force concentration. Any shooting answer was likely going to be artillery, which crashes into the top floors of stuff. In the case of SMS, what you do in the movement phase literally doesn't matter, the tau player just gets to roll dice and your models are gone.

 daedalus wrote:
Their turns take too long (though that could be my experience)

Strange Its usually the opposite for me.

not as fast as grey knights but must faster than most other armies. Usually 15 min per player turn when i play. but maybe i just play faster then most.

 LValx wrote:
A lot of the Tau lists I see here on Dakka would probably have a difficult time beating 60 Hounds. Or 5 Battlewagons. Or 3 LRs with the right contents.

But they'd be gunning as they went down.

It's one thing to "feel helpless" and another entirely to not get to play the game.

I feel it's a whole army that is akin to some things I have seen in very very small doses. And it's too bad, because it's a cool army with a lot of neat tricks, but they were made into a gunline that you cannot sneak up on.

One example of the small doses that springs to mind is Dante's mask (I think it's Dante that has it, right? I may be mixing up BA special characters.) It straight up wounds your biggest enemy and lowers some stats for him. Normally the enemy Warlord as I've experienced it.

My BA mate pulled that one. He goes "ok, game start. Your Warlord gets a wound and these three or four stats are lowered by one."
I'm like "woah, ok. That'll be an exciting dice throw!" "No, it just straight up happened. No dice." "Alright, what's the drawback?" "No drawback. It just happened because I bought a guy and then the game started and it happened."
WELL FANTASTIC! THAT'S A TON OF FUN! Why not just make another 2 of those items and we can start the game with my warlord dying! Awesome item!
I mean if it had been a mark and then if he gets into CC with Dante then it happens, I'd be like "woooah, that makes my tactics change since I'm gonna be little more careful of getting close to Dante!" But no. It doesn't add anything. it just wounds me.

I always have to wonder if things like that were invented by Matt Ward. It just smacks of his way of thinking. He is very one dimensional.

But I digress by a lot. It makes me pissed in the same way, but it's not exactly the same thing. The problem with Tau, as I see it, is they covered their weaknesses too well in the new codex, leaving none to attempt to exploit. (as long as they run gunlines)

 Desubot wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Their turns take too long (though that could be my experience)

Strange Its usually the opposite for me.

not as fast as grey knights but must faster than most other armies. Usually 15 min per player turn when i play. but maybe i just play faster then most.

Well, like I said, it could just be my experience. Our Tau player is notorious for unintentional slowplyaing with his other armies as well. He has to analyze every possible option with every possible outcome for every possible unit. It got so bad that I bought a chess clock that I use on him.

In my experiance, at 1850 a turn take 20-25 mins. But im sadly a slow player by nature.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
In my experiance, at 1850 a turn take 20-25 mins. But im sadly a slow player by nature.

That's actually not too far off for most 2000 point games I see.

A bad tactuical decision could totally cost you the game as Tau if its bad enough and you aren't running a gunline behind an aegis. I dont think they are very forgiving at all!

Wolfnid420 wrote:
A bad tactuical decision could totally cost you the game as Tau if its bad enough and you aren't running a gunline behind an aegis. I dont think they are very forgiving at all!

And this is different from other armies how?

Wolfnid420 wrote:
A bad tactuical decision could totally cost you the game as Tau if its bad enough and you aren't running a gunline behind an aegis. I dont think they are very forgiving at all!

Sarcasm doesn't carry well on the internet, but this one CLEARLY must be sarcasm right?

"If I screw up bad enough, I could lose, potentially... except if I'm behind an eagis, then I can really put my pants on my head and blow the dice out of my nose."

That's how I read that sentence. If the only chance of losing is that you screw up bad enough, you know your army might be a little OTT.

But like I've said. It isn't even about losing and winning. It's about being allowed in the game as more than target practice dummies.

Its not really, thats kinda what im getting at. Though i do feel like most power armored armies can weather a mistake a lot easier than most xeno armies.

redacted due to sarcasms

 Purifier wrote:

Wolfnid420 wrote:
A bad tactuical decision could totally cost you the game as Tau if its bad enough and you aren't running a gunline behind an aegis. I dont think they are very forgiving at all!

Sarcasm doesn't carry well on the internet, but this one CLEARLY must be sarcasm right?

"If I screw up bad enough, I could lose, potentially... except if I'm behind an eagis, then I can really put my pants on my head and blow the dice out of my nose."

That's how I read that sentence. If the only chance of losing is that you screw up bad enough, you know your army might be a little OTT.

But like I've said. It isn't even about losing and winning. It's about being allowed in the game as more than target practice dummies.

I laughed soo hard at your response. I meant more like a single really bad decision could cost you and entire game. 1 unit being in the wrong place or being forced to flee could keep you from being able to win entirely!

Regarding the ADL, thats kinda how i feel about em, all these horror stories of charging Tau behind an ADL and just being massacred is kinda sad. I personally dont like them. Or riptides for that matter. but i think that any adl army is kind of silly because its very limiting and boring to play with and against. Yeah, Tau can delete the ADL but the troops that do it are sooo fragile. Prioritize them first and the entire army suffers greatly!! How many armies out there can be somewhat crippled by killing 1 or 2 units? No one complains about 6 or 12 guardsmen, and thats what they become without their lazer pointers of awesome lol

I just dont think people want to put enough effort into how to get past an ADL Tau player and would rather bitch about it. They dont want to dedicate enough drop troops or highAV or whatever think they need, and rather than try new things and adapt to a new meta they'd rather throw up their arms and claim defeat.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration.

But then you'd have the old problem of melee armies getting to one unit unchallenged and slaughtering the rest from there. Back in 4th there were armies that never took a shot before they had slaughtered all you had. Sure, no Overwatch but they also had Consolidate into the next CC. Not wishing for a return to that crap.

Yeah. Harlequins. I had an entire Ultramarine army completely destroyed by a single unit Harlequins by turn 3.