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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I never play with the kid gloves.

Could you expand on that please? Basically, what do alot of your buddies play ect.

To me, it sounds like you build tournament style lists, since I am not sure what other way the kid gloves would be on for. And if you do run a tournament style list, and you beat your buddy's very handily while they themselves use No Gloves lists, it would seem you have a better army or are a superior player.

So, either you do not win very often prior to the new Tau codex, or something else entirely is making your buddies grumpy.

But nobody buys the upgrade (which is battlesuit only and allows you to overwatch at BS 2) unless the FAQ ironed out the drone controller+commander+marker drone controversy, in which case...6 marker drones overwatching on their normal bs...could be a bit frustrating.

 Rommel44 wrote:

Nightwolf829 wrote:
What upgrade allows Tau to overwatch at full ballistic skill? I have a Tau codex and I somehow seem to have overlooked this mythical gem entirely. Tau -do- have an upgrade that they can purchase for their battlesuits that allows them to overwatch at ballistic skill two. Unless you are talking of overwatching with markerlights, then increasing the overwatch to hit roll of the unit being charged. Even then.. the likeliness of that working out so perfectly is low.

I believe it has to do with the Marker Lights or there Etheral leader, can't remember exactly, however that is my only beef with these guys as I find that being able to over-watch with a decent BS is a bit overpowered to say the least, especially against assaulting armies. But besides that they aren't as scary as people make them out to be. Drop-Pod lists, Leman Russ spam lists, and even mass infantry armies usually do well, and air superiority lists are also effective in my experience.

There are two things
Marker Lights, which initially needs 6s to hit,

and counter fire defense system which boost bs to 2 for over watch

hardly full bs.
everyone realizes that you need 6s to hit first right? generally speaking you may have 10 pathfinders that are getting charged or near by a charge, they hit mabye 2 of those markerlights, the squad next to it then can be boosted to bs 4+ to have this work you need decent positioning.
the entire way you could be whittling them down as you go heck flamers destroy pathfinders on contact and everyone has access to them (basically)
If its a commander squad, they still hit on 6s and cannot use any crisis suit war gear like ignore cover or reroll misses as it only works durring your own shooting.

FYI Ethereal can only
Stubborn
extra pulse weapon shot at half range
fnp 6+
fire snap shots after running.

I play Eldar, and have only played against a Tau army 3 times since I began playing.

Once in a friendly game, where I had a close win as he was short on mobile troops, so I was able to hit the objectives.

Twice in a tournament setting;
The second of the two was a game I won, with the new eldar codex. I was able to get into CC, and got rid of his markerlights early with serpent shields. I can't emphasise how important killing those pathfinders is.

The first game I ever played against Tau, was in my first ever tournament. This guy went on to win the tourney, and I was utterly smashed by him.

This was using the old codex, and I played a shooty list hiding behind an Aegis. I had first turn, and he stole the initiative, and proceeded to almost completely table me in a single turn. 3 Skyrays and two riptides with Eldrad guiding them will do that I suppose. This guy is basically undefeated with this army, and it's a complete gunline castle list. He does nothing but shoot people off the table, and wins by having a scoring unit on a home objective, while his opponent has no scoring units left.

Not fun to play against, but damn effective.

Personally, I've got no issue with the army. Because, I could drop the money and buy the same shooty army, and get the same result. But I don't, I like playing my Eldar, and I enjoy winning a close game because I played them well. I wouldn't enjoy winning with a gunline Tau list half as much. That, and it does get you marked down in other categories.

Nobody likes to score high to composition when the movement phase consists of nothing, and the shooting phase is 30-40 minutes of me putting my army back in my case.

That, and the aforementioned player gets marked down in sportsmanship. Nobody likes to get tabled without killing a model, especially when it's by a smug git that insists on telling you exactly why.


The point I'm making is that it's not the army, its the player. The two other games i've played against Tau have not been the same savaging I received on the 3rd occasion. But those two games were against more casual players, who turned up with a balanced list.

A nothing-but-shooty Tau list will get the same reaction as a Necron Wraithwing list, or a Ravenwing Bolterbanner list, or a triple-drake list. The same sigh of derision as I remind myself why I don't do the same. It's not the army/codex that's the problem. It's the player that decided to play that army. It's just that Tau tends to attract that guy more than other codex's.

I don't personally have anything against the Tau, but admittedly most of the games I have watched with them involved are pretty 1 sided/not fun to watch. We have 3 Tau players at my local gaming store & they all basically use the same strategy. Riptide with drones, battlesuits surrounded by drones that have a 4+ invulnerable save. Since you cannot out shoot the Tau, the only real option left is to assault them. Anyone who attempts to assault them gets hit by 2 units with supporting fire rule? That is assuming you even make it into CC since they have jet boosters or w/e & they render cover useless.

I haven't played these players myself, just spectated. From the games I watched this weekend they beat Necrons, Orks, Chaos Daemons with little to no effort.

Anything that bypasses fundamental functions of the game will receive complaints because your opponent has to play by those rules and disadvantages while you get to ignore them.

Marines bypass poor armor.

Tau bypass overwatch and cover.

Heldrakes bypass hull point loss, cone of fire, cover, good armor saves, attack loss through jink, and attack loss through movement.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Anything that bypasses fundamental functions of the game will receive complaints because your opponent has to play by those rules and disadvantages while you get to ignore them.

Marines bypass poor armor.

Tau bypass overwatch and cover.

Heldrakes bypass hull point loss, cone of fire, cover, good armor saves, attack loss through jink, and attack loss through movement.

Whats cone of fire?
Whats attack loss through jink/movement?

When I used to run 10 Wraithguard with invisibility,fortune and 4+ fnp on them - they used to bypass taking wounds.

I got complaints. Havent run them since the rest of the dex got better.

Soups wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I never play with the kid gloves.

Could you expand on that please? Basically, what do alot of your buddies play ect.

To me, it sounds like you build tournament style lists, since I am not sure what other way the kid gloves would be on for. And if you do run a tournament style list, and you beat your buddy's very handily while they themselves use No Gloves lists, it would seem you have a better army or are a superior player.

So, either you do not win very often prior to the new Tau codex, or something else entirely is making your buddies grumpy.

I won very often with my SM aswell.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

Heldrakes bypass hull point loss, cone of fire, cover, good armor saves, attack loss through jink, and attack loss through movement.

Whats cone of fire?
Whats attack loss through jink/movement?

Heldrake has a turret mounted TORRENT flamer that does st 6? ap 3
because it is a daemon engine it has it will not die and has a 5+ stock invul save which is about as good as a regular jink so no point in jinking.

Wolfnid420 wrote:
Im just so shocked that people dont put artillery in every list(except tau because we dont have it, its ok though we have ML instead), because i see a lot of people bring an ADL, Its not like its ONLY good against tau infantry, its good against anything willing to stay put.

I want to play Blood Angels, not BA + IG artillery. Although I do not expect GW to solve that particular issue as they want people to use allies.

Maybe I beed to get Shadowsun, some pathfinders and 3 Riptides.

Naw wrote:

Wolfnid420 wrote:
Im just so shocked that people dont put artillery in every list(except tau because we dont have it, its ok though we have ML instead), because i see a lot of people bring an ADL, Its not like its ONLY good against tau infantry, its good against anything willing to stay put.

I want to play Blood Angels, not BA + IG artillery. Although I do not expect GW to solve that particular issue as they want people to use allies.

Maybe I beed to get Shadowsun, some pathfinders and 3 Riptides.

Necrons don't get artillery either. Except for the sentry pylons.

I'm pretty sure Dark Eldar don't get artillery either.

Forgot one more thing . They are getting a Farsight sub digital codex just like eldar did , making it possible to play tau with tau ally with even greater

 Desubot wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

Heldrakes bypass hull point loss, cone of fire, cover, good armor saves, attack loss through jink, and attack loss through movement.

Whats cone of fire?
Whats attack loss through jink/movement?

Heldrake has a turret mounted TORRENT flamer that does st 6? ap 3
because it is a daemon engine it has it will not die and has a 5+ stock invul save which is about as good as a regular jink so no point in jinking.

I know what the heldrake can do
Your phrasing was different is all.

I use to have a Tau army. I sold them when I heard how their new codex was going to work. For me I hatted having to turtle to live and was hoping that the new codex would round them out a little, like how Far-sight and his Fire warrior are suppose to be more melee oriented. When I saw it was going to be more of the same I could not imagine them being fun to play any more and sold them. which I do not regret.

Makumba wrote:
Forgot one more thing . They are getting a Farsight sub digital codex just like eldar did , making it possible to play tau with tau ally with even greater

You can't do that. Supplemental codex's cannot ally with the main codex.

The table says tau. And tau farsight enclave is a tau codex. just like both the eldar ones.

I'm not gonna lie, I do love this thread! Rain your tears! !!!!!! Lol

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
S, In my game tonight i was playing tau v. eldar i kept hearing tau hate. Like how i can ignore cover, how i dont have the things modeled on, I do BTW, but certain things like EWO or MSS or Command and control node don't have official war gear. The guy was nice and a little frustrated but he is a good friend so i gave him a break. But still the table behind me(Necron v Eldar) I kept hearing tau trash, how we rendered his flyers obsolete, how we killed 600pts in one shot and so forth.
Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?

My dislike of Tau goes back to the 3rd edition... I don't like the way they play, and I don't like the way they look. Hate is a strong word; I will stay play games against Tau, and in 3rd edition and for a brief moment in 5th edition people hated Blood Angels even worse, my army, so I feel your pain but still... don't like Tau hah.

Makumba wrote:
The table says tau. And tau farsight enclave is a tau codex. just like both the eldar ones.

Exactly, an army can't ally with itself.

 shamikebab wrote:

Makumba wrote:
The table says tau. And tau farsight enclave is a tau codex. just like both the eldar ones.

Exactly, an army can't ally with itself.

And that's straight from Choosing your army (beginning at pg108) and the allies matrix on page 113. The allies must be from a different Codex, and that's why there's no box telling us how an army would regard allying with itself.

Though, these things being called supplements... has anyone bought the Iyanden book and checked it out yet? Is it a free-standing army or are there options to integrate it into a normal Eldar army?

This post has made me some what angry.
The truth is people are n*bs.
The thing to do is moan and bitch because your army that once killed everything is now getting whipped so rather than change tactics or your army list the New army list must be broken. Forget the hundreds of play hours that go into proving the codex out it has to be broken.
Until all the codexs are out there will be an imbalance towards 6th edition codexs but it is not insurmountable. My sw recently beat a 6th edition cd codex that beat a 6th edition da army.
People say the same things about fliers and that 6th edition is rubbish. What 6th edition has done is change things and guess what, people don't like change. It makes you think about the game again and if you don't like it go play chess or snap.
Anyway I love the new tau codex, I don't own the army but enjoy playing against it.

Spetulhu wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:

Makumba wrote:
The table says tau. And tau farsight enclave is a tau codex. just like both the eldar ones.

Exactly, an army can't ally with itself.

And that's straight from Choosing your army (beginning at pg108) and the allies matrix on page 113. The allies must be from a different Codex, and that's why there's no box telling us how an army would regard allying with itself.

Though, these things being called supplements... has anyone bought the Iyanden book and checked it out yet? Is it a free-standing army or are there options to integrate it into a normal Eldar army?

It's a supplement, not a Codex. You're still playing Codex: Eldar and as such can't ally with yourself.

Tau for the win.

Take no prisoners. We suffered long enough. =)

I've played Tau since the 3rd ed book hit the shelves. I liked the idea of a mobile, elite shooting army to change up playstyles from my static, hordey shooting IG army. I think because that was my initial build for the army, that's how I still play it. I don't play with an Aegis, I don't have any Riptides (I'm cheap), I outflank a lot. That being said, I still feel like the army is really, really good. I feel like a boxer that has good feet and long arms. I can just keep hitting, and hitting, but my enemy can't land better than a glancing blow. That might change with experience, I don't know. I do think it has been frustrating for some of my opponents, but I also think I've been outplaying a lot of them.

This is the way I see their advantages: They're big, and they're different from most armies, but they don't always work together, and they require some skill to pull off.

1.) Markerlights: I my experience, there's really only going to be one reliable unit of Markerlights in the Tau army. Pathfinders are squishy as hell and static, and drones are expensive and lousy shots. Wherever the Commander is will have accurate, mobile, well protected Markerlights. This is because the Commander should always be T5 with a 2+ save. He can tank like a champ, and lend his BS to the drones. It will probably be more work to kill this unit than it's worth unless you have artillery to bypass the rock sitting in front of the unit. If you can't kill it, it's going to hit a single unit of yours, and it's going to hit it with a big chunk (6-8) Markerlights. This is going to allow a ton of units to really wail on this one unit, but it's probably only one unit that will get this treatment if you're doing your job and mitigating other sources of Markerlights. Also remember that Markerlights have 36". That's good range, but it's not across the board range (not if the Markerlights are protected).

2.) Interceptor weapons don't get benefits of Markerlights, and rarely get benefits of Skyfire. The Riptide is the most feared Interceptor (by my understanding, but if you use it with Interceptor, you can't use it with Markerlight support, which means that it's got an awesome blast that is BS3, won't fire 1/6 times, and you can take cover from. If you can mitigate Leman Russes, you can mitigate Intercepting Riptides. I'm not saying they're not good, but forcing a Tau unit to fire it's most important weapon in your turn means it won't be firing with Markerlight support in the next turn. The Riptide is also the only unit you're going to see with both Interceptor and Skyfire. Of the two weapons it can take, the most popular (Ion Accelerator) is a pretty poor AA weapon for the points. 3 S7 AP2 shots isn't instant death to any flyer, really. Again, I won't say Interceptor isn't a great ability, but it plays against the strength of Markerlights.

3.) I think there's two strong answers to Tau, and not every army has good access to them. One is artillery discussed previously in the thread. Two is alpha striking short-range firepower (outflanking squads, drop-podding marines, probably others). You need tough, not terribly expensive bodies (Marines) that can show up and put serious short-range fire into the Tau bodies. Both infantry, and Crisis suits will fold to this kind of fire. Broadsides and Riptides can sustain it, depending the weapons used, but the range advantage is mitigated to a degree. Basically, tac Marine squads can beat Tau in a close-range firefight (assuming proper long range support also), but they can't get there without some other mechanic to help them out (like Drop Pods).

4.) I'm not sure that any these things make Tau "fun" to play against, but they are angles that can be approached in trying to do the best against new Tau. That being said, I think some people find different armies unfun to play against. To some extent, every army tries to prevent the opposing army from doing it's thing. Just because one army gives you a false sense of accomplishment by allowing you to remove unimportant models is it more "fun" than an army that makes it hard to remove models?

The reason I think that the new tau are broken and too strong compared to the rest of the 6th ed armies is that there are very few weaknesses and the majority of them they have the ability to counter it with ease. Any sort of ap4 barrage weapons will be a pain for them but it os not hard to just spread out leaving your opponent hitting just a couple. Any drop pods filled with things like flamers will do a number on the FW and pathfinders but any riptide with interceptor will make short work of the alpha striking unit.

CC is far out of the question as a viable weakness because the tau can and will shoot them to pieces before they can get to them and those pieces that do make it will die in droves to mass overwatch. Ethereals make this even worse with the ability to give them even more shots at half range.

You cannot out shoot the tau because they can and will just GTG behind their ADL for 2+ cover. Any gunline will fall to tau because they have the ability to ignore an entire aspect of the game with ease. The only solid counter to them is either a GK incinerator shunt list or any sort of ap4 ignoring cover weapon (preferably template of some sort), and that is IF they are not running a farsight bomb. But if they are then it is almost an autolose.

The only real way to survive them is to have ridiculously good invuls enmasse which no army has, or an army of t5+ which only chaos has the ability to do with ease AFAIK.

This is not just some sort of QQing hecause I am too lazy to try something new, I have tried multiple different approaches to fight the tau but their riptides are broken since they can do literally anything, their supporting fire rule completely removes an aspect of the game when used correctly. Markerlights can now effectively strip any cover save with some lights left to spare. Farsight bombs are near unkillable unless you have a barrage battlecannon equivalent and can deal out far too much damage and can ignore cover and do many other things. There are no armies that can currently break the game as hard as the tau can. They have the ability to and often do ignore a couple aspects of the entire game which throws tactics out the window because most tactics revolve around cover and terrain which the tau ignore with ease. The point is they basically have made CC useless and can outshoot any army due to the fact that they ignore whole aspects of the game and will destroy entire armies that depend on it. I hate to break it to you but they are worse then GK in 5th ed because at least with GK you could fight them unlike tau where you may as well not even bother unpacking your models and just call it a game.

I'm starting to repeat myself so I'm just gonna shut up now

Generally speaking, the units with 4+ saves are generally low in model count and have low leadership. It means that even if you only manage to take out 3 firewarriors, then you have enough for a morale check. Unless they pay 10 extra points per unit for +1 leadership or an ethereal, they have a good chance to fail. Pathfinders are worse, because they are already high cost models, but have worse armor and lower model count.

A lot of people complain that Tau get to ignore an entire aspect of the game (cover saves and overwatch). Well I personally can't stand how marines get ATSKNF which almost completely ruins the leadership aspect of the game to me, yet nobody really throws a fuss about that. I hate that Necrons can bring back entire squads unless I dedicate overkill amounts of firepower to completely destroy one squad. I hate that Eldar and DE get so many lance weapons that completely negate the aspect of A13/14 in the game.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Well I personally can't stand how marines get ATSKNF which almost completely ruins the leadership aspect of the game to me, yet nobody really throws a fuss about that.

Really? That's probably one of the most common complaints.

I have NEVER encounter hate for my SM, yet TAU I do encounter hate for

Amounts to rock saying "paper is OP, but scissors are fine and balanced."

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Well I personally can't stand how marines get ATSKNF which almost completely ruins the leadership aspect of the game to me, yet nobody really throws a fuss about that.

You must hate fearless units.

I hate that Necrons can bring back entire squads unless I dedicate overkill amounts of firepower to completely destroy one squad.

Try dealing with Portalglyphs and Riftbringers plus double sixes on the Warpstorm table.

I hate that Eldar and DE get so many lance weapons that completely negate the aspect of A13/14 in the game.

Then you must pull your hair out over Strength 10 weapons...
Strength 8 vs AV 12... need a 4+
Strength 10 vs AV 14... need a 4+