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Hi

Due to a combination of many different things - GW price increase, Resin addiction, working too many hours and not enough time to game

I've decided to invest in a Zone Mortalis set up. 500-1000pts maximum per game so no 2hr+ games.

I love the horus heresy range and i'd love to field 3000pts in about 8 different chapters but i just dont have the time to do this so my happy compromise is a ZM set up. I can field all the chapters i like at 500 points and my favourites get expanded to 1000pts.

Does anyone find it more fun to game at smaller point ranges? I honestly think when some of us get hacked off with apoc we'll find short sharp aggressive games in space ships more fun - yes i do own a copy of Space Hulk and all expansions.

40K is a completely different game sub 1000 points.

Personally, I'd say that there are lots of much, much better rule systems for playing at those scales.

i guess i missed out a lot over the last few years. Ive only just started getting my head round 40k after playing all the older games in the past such as space hulk, space fleet, space marine, space crusade and heroquest.

I guess i always like the small scale stuff and a limited rule base was always good to keep the rules simple and the game fast paced.

i was pretty impressed with the ZM game that was played at the heresy weekender. Ive plenty of stuff to even have well stocked aircraft hangars and expanding it to a 6x4 board is easy enough for 4 players. it does keep the knobbers out with their wraithknights too

I've got no experience with ZM, although it does seem pretty cool. Alot of my favourite 40k matches have been combat patrols and the like. You don't necessarily need a billion models to have fun.(although it helps hehe) I also had alot of fun in a fantasy campaign once, where we started at super low points, like 10-15 models a side, and expanded gradually. Was great fun, although like scott said, 40k is very different at low points.

Hmm, ZM does look tempting though. May have to investigate more....

 Scott-S6 wrote:
40K is a completely different game sub 1000 points.

Personally, I'd say that there are lots of much, much better rule systems for playing at those scales.

I'd love to hear you throw some specific game names out. I still have my old Warzone and Vor rules but I haven't seen a lot of current rules sets for sci-fi skirmish scale, not that I know where to look. I have plenty of 40k figs that could use a new game.

I'd alter the rules slightly, as there are a few things that don't quite work in a small game. This varies depending on how you like to play, so play a few games, and create some house rules to fix what you deem need fixing.

For me, the biggest problem is game length and the missions. Under 1k points, especially at 500, the fact a game lasts 5-7 turns is irrelevant, it comes down to who kills who first. So, we like to play with a turn limit of 3-4. Additionally, you're going to have to switch many of the objectives rules around. We do this by limiting the number of them to three, and saying that all denial units can capture objectives

I personally Like a small game. It stop you having something of everything. So you have to be more selective and then think about how to play.

Yes its a completely different games sub 500pts but surely that's good? more play ability?

It also lets you get more games in. And the ZM set looks great, but I like to think you can make better modular boards yourself. You can then add new pieces as and when you think of them.

With me its go big or go home. I invest a lot of money into one of my armies and I like to use as much of it as possible. There are always certain units I never use other than to make points because I like others better, or I can't fit the models I like into a 500pt army. Bigger points, more models, bigger dead piles and more fun.

Look up Infinity for a small scale tactical game.

i will have a wee recce on the infinity stuff as the scenery looks good but im a sucker for the horus heresy and after seeing the new stuff being released in the future for the word bearers and never knowing a character so hated in literature than erebus i'll be building a small insertion force for them - and ADB's portrayal of the night lords has certainly put them on the list as i cant wait to see what the murder squads will look like.

I do have some larger scale stuff like a warhound and around a 2k DKOK list but short sharp fun games with an awesome narrative has greater appeal to me. I honestly think this area will be something that GW will do in the next 5 years as the rate that codexes are being renewed this will be needed to give the team a break and i strongly feel that guys are missing out on.

 Galen wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
40K is a completely different game sub 1000 points.

Personally, I'd say that there are lots of much, much better rule systems for playing at those scales.

I'd love to hear you throw some specific game names out. I still have my old Warzone and Vor rules but I haven't seen a lot of current rules sets for sci-fi skirmish scale, not that I know where to look. I have plenty of 40k figs that could use a new game.

In no particular order:
StarGrunt2
Infinity
Mercs

Stargrunt's an interesting one. With it's heavy emphasis on psychology, troop quality, suppression and wounding (vs. 40K which is all about guns and armour) you can actually make a properly scary space marine. A marine that keeps fighting long past humans have given up, that shrugs off flesh wounds, that takes no prisoners, etc. and because of this is worth many scores of regular humans.

badgermeister wrote:
it does keep the knobbers out with their wraithknights too

A 500 point limit or the Air Hangers?

Spiritseer, 2 units of 5 Dire Avengers and a Wraithknight = 500pts.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Galen wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
40K is a completely different game sub 1000 points.

Personally, I'd say that there are lots of much, much better rule systems for playing at those scales.

I'd love to hear you throw some specific game names out. I still have my old Warzone and Vor rules but I haven't seen a lot of current rules sets for sci-fi skirmish scale, not that I know where to look. I have plenty of 40k figs that could use a new game.

In no particular order:
StarGrunt2
Infinity
Mercs

Stargrunt's an interesting one. With it's heavy emphasis on psychology, troop quality, suppression and wounding (vs. 40K which is all about guns and armour) you can actually make a properly scary space marine. A marine that keeps fighting long past humans have given up, that shrugs off flesh wounds, that takes no prisoners, etc. and because of this is worth many scores of regular humans.

A great ruleset I've found that lends itself well to smaller engagements is "Tomorrow's War" and I've personally used it to make rules for different 40k armies so that these armies actually play like the fluff portrays them, which is really cool when a Tau pathfinder squad is able to set up an ambush in advance of an Ork Boyz mob or even a close quarters battle between Marines and Tyranids.
I can't recommend that ruleset enough!
Though one has to keep in mind that the game doesn't have a points system (Though one is in Development) and is balanced around scenarios that the players create.

a wraithknight cant fit on a zone mortalis board,

There are additional rules with 'reaction fire' and a whole variety of upgrades available. No vehicles unless you get the open pieces and tailor the map accordingly with a narrative to fit.

I'll have it all squared away in the next 3 months but i can see some entertaining zombie apocalypse games being played.

Kill Teams is very, very fun IMO. But if you are playing sub ~1000 and not Kill Teams things get a little weird.

badgermeister wrote:
a wraithknight cant fit on a zone mortalis board

Yeah they can. Unless there's some rule about ceilings.

I think there is.

In a Zone Moralis set-up, Eversor Assassins are deadly. Normally they can't cross the board without getting their 130pt asses handed to the dead-pile. But in ZM they can cross the area and massecre anyone. Excpet Terminators.

there are model sizing restrictions in ZM but if you create an open hangar space then theres no reason why they couldnt access that area alone if its part of the narrative

I hadnt even thought about eversor assassins! as i'm looking at recreating events from the HH like Calth/intergalactic battles/Night lord back alley ambushes it will be a bit of a space marine on space marine sausagefest. However, a bit of assassin kill team action from 'Nemesis' will be needed on Horus's miniature release! It obviously changes the dynamics of some of the models with weaknesses as you can get an awful lot closer without getting sniped from afar.

Perhaps it'll turn into a novelty after time but i doubt it, now what chapter to paint my first batch of seige breaching marines?

Its a matter of taste but I wont play 40k at less than 1500 points and have ZERO desire to play apocalypse.

I prefer 40k at small points levels, because I prefer the game to be more subdued and tactical. With bigger games, theres less room to move and what little ability that exists to hide from big guns dissappears.

Gonna try Zone Mortalis this weekend, and have a few more games of Kill Team. The former flat-out removes the stuff I'm not fond of (120" range barrage pie plates for instance) and the latter lets you play a game with like 5-10 models though the ability to snipe out any dude you want seems pretty ass

40k started as a small scale, narrative based skirmish game, and thats how I'd like to play it. I have Epic for anything bigger than that.

 The Shadow wrote:
For me, the biggest problem is game length and the missions. Under 1k points, especially at 500, the fact a game lasts 5-7 turns is irrelevant, it comes down to who kills who first. So, we like to play with a turn limit of 3-4. Additionally, you're going to have to switch many of the objectives rules around. We do this by limiting the number of them to three, and saying that all denial units can capture objectives

Zone Mortalis fixes that to a large degree. Since the table is so crowded with short LOS you have to move around and choose your fights carefully, you can't just line up a bunch of shooting units and wipe out an entire army within 2-3 turns.

i honestly think some of the new releases with the riptide and wraithknight are changing the dynamics of the game - i expect some welcome them but i dont. i'm happy with the tyranids getting huge MC's but its turning the game into seeing how far someone can urinate with people fielding bare minimum troops to have 3 x riptides etc.

To me, playing under 1500 is kinda hit or miss. With friends it can be a fun quick game because you know the opponent isnt going to dick you over. But at 1000 some races can pull certain tactics that will wreck almost anything except a specific list meant to stop it, which cant stop anything else in the process.

Fliers at 1000 or less are pretty crazy for instance. Most armies cant deal with them and still field enough ground troops to do anything. Straight up numbers is another (Green Tide anyone?) because what counters that will usually do horrble against deathball or gun-range armies.