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Dante. As has been mentioned, both Calgar and Tu'shan bowed to him at Armageddon.

I'd have to go with Moloc when it comes to high-octane plot-armored badassery, Calgar as a Lord-Protector of his vassal worlds, Dante as a strategic commander, Helbrecht as a naval warfare expert, and Grimnar as a leader of warriors.

Draigo doesn't count because he's a puppet of the Chaos Gods, eternally tormented by the futility of his own life. While that makes him a paragon of the fleeting nature of all his chapter's victories, it doesn't make him a great Chapter Master.

Depends on your definition of "greatest". Dante is certainly the oldest, and many Chapter Masters defer to him because of that (as mentioned by others).

For me, its Logan Grimnar. Its one of the reasons I play Space Wolves. In the grim darkness of the future, its refreshing to see at least one Chapter Master who does what is right instead of what some religious zealot wants. Just look at the stuff he has done:

First War of Armageddon saw Chaos defeated. Those that fought valiantly against Chaos were put into camps and sterilized by the Inquisition. Logan knew it was wrong so he rescued as many as he could, escorting transports to their destinations to keep them safe from the Inquisition.

This lead to a "cold war" between the Ordo Malleus (specifically Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros and the forces under his command) and the Space Wolves. Negotiations to end the conflict were agreed to occur in neutral space, but the Space Wolves were attacked by Inquisition and Grey Knight forces. So what happens? Grimnar is brought aboard one of the Grey Knight vessels, alone, to negotiate his "surrender". Grimnar decides that idea is bunk, kills Grey Knight Grand Master Joros with one blow (for violating the laws of parlay; kind of a big deal), and then teleports back to his ship.

Inquisition forces, Grey Knights, and Red Hunters lay siege to Fenris so Logan and 20 Wolf Guard Terminators teleport onto Kysnaros' flagship and Logan kills him personally. He only ends his war against the Inquisition at the behest of Bjorn Fell-Hand.

Logan secures peace between the Inquisition and Space Wolves and no one is declared a heretic/traitor as you'd normally expect.

Logan was elected Supreme Commander during Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade.

Logan and Azrael put aside their chapter's animosity towards one another and together they won a big victory at the Battle of Kasr Sonnen against a force many times their size.

Basically I play Space Wolves because they are the most human of the Space Marines, and Logan Grimnar is the only Chapter Master with the guts to do what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. And I like to think its because of that, as well as his tactical abilities, he is highly respected among the other Chapter Masters. He and Azrael even have mutual respect for one another IIRC, despite their Chapter's history.

I've also just found another reason why Calgar is the greatest Chapter Master. He overcame his handicap of girly hands to rise to command of the Ultramarines.

Most human of the Space Marines? Salamanders might contest that! Good post though

 cowmonaut wrote:
Depends on your definition of "greatest". Dante is certainly the oldest, and many Chapter Masters defer to him because of that (as mentioned by others).

For me, its Logan Grimnar. Its one of the reasons I play Space Wolves. In the grim darkness of the future, its refreshing to see at least one Chapter Master who does what is right instead of what some religious zealot wants. Just look at the stuff he has done:

First War of Armageddon saw Chaos defeated. Those that fought valiantly against Chaos were put into camps and sterilized by the Inquisition. Logan knew it was wrong so he rescued as many as he could, escorting transports to their destinations to keep them safe from the Inquisition.

This lead to a "cold war" between the Ordo Malleus (specifically Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros and the forces under his command) and the Space Wolves. Negotiations to end the conflict were agreed to occur in neutral space, but the Space Wolves were attacked by Inquisition and Grey Knight forces. So what happens? Grimnar is brought aboard one of the Grey Knight vessels, alone, to negotiate his "surrender". Grimnar decides that idea is bunk, kills Grey Knight Grand Master Joros with one blow (for violating the laws of parlay; kind of a big deal), and then teleports back to his ship.

Inquisition forces, Grey Knights, and Red Hunters lay siege to Fenris so Logan and 20 Wolf Guard Terminators teleport onto Kysnaros' flagship and Logan kills him personally. He only ends his war against the Inquisition at the behest of Bjorn Fell-Hand.

Logan secures peace between the Inquisition and Space Wolves and no one is declared a heretic/traitor as you'd normally expect.

Logan was elected Supreme Commander during Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade.

Logan and Azrael put aside their chapter's animosity towards one another and together they won a big victory at the Battle of Kasr Sonnen against a force many times their size.

Basically I play Space Wolves because they are the most human of the Space Marines, and Logan Grimnar is the only Chapter Master with the guts to do what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. And I like to think its because of that, as well as his tactical abilities, he is highly respected among the other Chapter Masters. He and Azrael even have mutual respect for one another IIRC, despite their Chapter's history.

Pssssht! To be honest this reasoning is the same reason I appreciate Salamanders so very much. Whilst it is true they have always been a lesser (in size) chapter, they are the most human. They will weep for men, they have stood in the line to protect humans, their chapter master got enraged at another chapter master's plan to bombard a refuge settlement. They leave marines to defend planets and on their free time they often go about on planets as hermits to help humans. Goodness I love them. Personally I dislike Logan (namely because it just seems.... bullocks he gets away with all of that without even the slightest problem) and Space Wolves (Thousand Sons) however I shall proclaim Logan is worth being in the top 3. Tu'Shan shows promise (as Dante saw) but he is young and must learn more. Calgar, Logan, and Dante form, what I believe, is the current top 3 triad of chapter masters (a few others perhaps Minotaurs being one) with Dante perhaps barely edging the rest out simply due to age.

Well, Salamander's are my second favorite chapter for a reason. I had assumed it was the Melta and Flamers and point blank firing and the color scheme. Honestly, I had completely forgotten that they also stand up for the common man.

I'll grant you guys a tie for "most human" super humans

Logan protecting the Armageddon survivors should not be considered a good thing. He endangered billions upon billions of souls by spread of corruption and allowing it to be spread Enperor knows how many incursions have been caused by a First Armageddon War survivor. Or a descendent or a relative or someone who had contact to them

The thing I don't like about Logan (because I like that he's trying to protect as above) is that he can get away with outright Heresy without incident. Inquisitors are the right hand of the Emperor and subject to no one bar Him. Killing one of them unless a proven traitor is heresy, and without the approval of another Inquisitor is as well. Killing a Grey Knight Grand Master, well, Logan's lucky to be alive. Any other chapter wouldv'e declared war on the Wolves. GK were created expressly by the Emperor for a purpose. To deny them that purpose and kill one, particularly one so high ranked, is to defy the Emperor's Will.

 Deadshot wrote:
Logan protecting the Armageddon survivors should not be considered a good thing. He endangered billions upon billions of souls by spread of corruption and allowing it to be spread Enperor knows how many incursions have been caused by a First Armageddon War survivor. Or a descendent or a relative or someone who had contact to them.

Oh my, you actually buy into the paranoia written into the game background to show how dumb/desperate/fearful/ignorant (pick one) society has become in the future! Hint: Anyone that showed visible signs of corruption would have been slain as Chaos scum. The people interred in the camps were not necessarily actually "tainted". They certainly weren't any less "tainted" than any of the Space Marines that fought Chaos.

To think otherwise requires believing that the Space Marines truly are "holy warriors" and that their "faith" protected them. But then that still ignores that the same "faith" could have protected these others.

 Deadshot wrote:
The thing I don't like about Logan (because I like that he's trying to protect as above) is that he can get away with outright Heresy without incident.

Alright, this is going to get deep, but Deepshot I have to ask: Do you know what "heresy" means?

Here's the thing, "heresy" is a religious term. It is not the same as "traitor", even in 40k's universe. It only has real meaning in a religious sense. The Emperor of Mankind is venerated as a god (against his will; remember his refusal to be worshiped as a god was one of the key things leading the Word Bearers to Chaos and the Horus Heresy) by most of mankind. We have a futuristic dark age going on here. The Ecclesiarchy encourages this worship. 99% of Space Marines follow this worship (hence Chaplains). It hasn't always been this way, but for thousands of years it has been.

The Space Wolves do not see the Emperor as a god. They don't buy into the cult of worshiping him. So heresy isn't a punishment that would phase them.

 Deadshot wrote:
Killing a Grey Knight Grand Master, well, Logan's lucky to be alive. Any other chapter wouldv'e declared war on the Wolves. GK were created expressly by the Emperor for a purpose. To deny them that purpose and kill one, particularly one so high ranked, is to defy the Emperor's Will.

A few things:

1. Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros and Grand Master Joro broke Imperial Law (and what would be considered international law these days, suppose intergalactic law would apply here) by violating their own request of parley. This is a huge deal. Parley is one of the oldest laws/rules around, having started in the middle ages. If it existed still 40,000 years from now then it would be one of the oldest laws known to man. Its the only way peace can be made between two warring forces. Presumably this transgression is punishable by the death penalty.

2. The Grey Knights are not an autonomous chapter, and they were created to fight Daemons. Grey Knights are a tool of the Inquisition.

3. The Inquisition was created to do the Emperor's bidding. That was thousands of years ago. The Inquisitors themselves "these days" have a lot of in-fighting, so its not surprising to see the Inquisition fighting loyal forces. They fight among themselves often enough.

4. But to blindly assume that fighting the powers that be in the Empire is "against the Emperor's Will" shows a lack of understanding of the fluff material. Some of the best parts of the fluff are the bits where the current Imperium of Man is a shadow of what it once was and not at all the vision the Emperor had. Point in fact, him being kept alive is likely against his will and may actually be a bad thing (the whole "Star Child" theory of things).

Read more of the Horus Heresy era fluff. Things are a lot more grimdark than you'd expect!

Minor nitpick: It was Ulrik the Slayer who stayed Logan's hand at Armageddon, not Bjorn IIRC.
Also, it would be interstellar or intragalactic law; intergalactic is between two or more galaxies, and 40K only takes place in one.
Okay, enough pedantic nitpicking.

Another vote for Grimnar here; he's the only Chapter Master who's been in charge in two major conflicts, and still manages to fool everyone into thinking he's "just a barbarian" instead of the genius he really is..,
Having said that, I do quite like the Salamanders as well, but only the Wolves have the cojones to act on what they think is right.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I'd have to go with Moloc when it comes to high-octane plot-armored badassery.

I think it's brought up in IA 12 that a canonical in-universe rumour is that Morloc doesn't have plot armour at all, but instead actually was killed several times and his memories implanted into another Space Marine to continue on as the new Morloc. This is pointed/implied to be possible but also tech-heresy. Other people in-universe say such a claim is just malicious slander.

@cowmonaut


Firstly, it is paranoia. That's fact. But the risk of taint spreading and the threat it poses is too great to risk.

Secondly, "visible signs" of corruption only appear in xhaulted champions who have been given a prize by the Ruinous Powers. The kind the Inquisition is on the look out for, because yes, a third arm or tentecles would be burned at the stake, is the quiet kind. The kind that starts by some lowly grunt thinking "I don't want to be pushed into another war to defend these s."

Thirdly, space marines are more resistant due to lifelong indoctrination and are brainwashed in all but name. Any sign of corruption results in the marine being immediately
destroyed. However, they are too few in number to destroy just to be safe, whereas humans are the only thing the Imperium has a surplus of and it is easier, less costly and safer to wipe out the humans.

Heresy is to go against the accepted and official religion of the state. Therefore the SW are in definition of the word, heretics, but are not called such. In any case, its not the views of the person who believes differently that counts, its the others he's differing from. And their rank relevant to his.

Example being Emperor Constantine who started what we now know as the Roman Catholic church by converting to christianity on his deathbed. Everyone goes along with it because he's the boss. On the other hand, in BC times, defying the state in any manner, including braodcasting differing beliefs was cause for punishment or even execution dependent on severity.

Basically. Majority rule. Everyone else believes in Emperor as a god. Space Wolves say otherwise. Everyone has a problem an you are branded as a heretic. They got away with it due to Bjorn's presence and their Legion status.


Imperial Law is dictated by the High Lords, or someone underneath them. In either case, the Inquisition sit outside the Lords control and so are not bound by Imperial Law and by extension niether are the GK. For them Parley is simply about honour and fairplay. But yes, they deserved to die for breaking an ancient pact. It is one of things like adultery with your best friend's wife or perjury. You do not do it or be branded as a coward/scumbag.


And no, the Inquisitors do not act in the way a living Emperor would want, imo, but they act in a way that they percieve to be his instruction. To use a real world example, smcertain people's views on the Catholic Church and their actions hich are to them the will of God, may not be the actual will of God. That is not to offend anyone. That's just opinion held by some people. Even though the Emperor and God are not "present" (although those of faith debate the latter), there are those who believe they are acting upon His orders.

So it doesn't matter what we players think. That fact is the Inquisition act in a way that they believe follows the Emperor's will, and combined with the fact he is the god of the Imperium, anyone who acts against them is defying what is effectively God or His equivilent and under a religiously controlled lawmaker is illegal.



Fianlly,what is with "Deepshot?"

Have to say maybe Dante or Grimnar. Favorites go between a three-way tie between those two and Angelos.

 cowmonaut wrote:
Depends on your definition of "greatest". Dante is certainly the oldest, and many Chapter Masters defer to him because of that (as mentioned by others).

For me, its Logan Grimnar. Its one of the reasons I play Space Wolves. In the grim darkness of the future, its refreshing to see at least one Chapter Master who does what is right instead of what some religious zealot wants. Just look at the stuff he has done:

First War of Armageddon saw Chaos defeated. Those that fought valiantly against Chaos were put into camps and sterilized by the Inquisition. Logan knew it was wrong so he rescued as many as he could, escorting transports to their destinations to keep them safe from the Inquisition.

This lead to a "cold war" between the Ordo Malleus (specifically Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros and the forces under his command) and the Space Wolves. Negotiations to end the conflict were agreed to occur in neutral space, but the Space Wolves were attacked by Inquisition and Grey Knight forces. So what happens? Grimnar is brought aboard one of the Grey Knight vessels, alone, to negotiate his "surrender". Grimnar decides that idea is bunk, kills Grey Knight Grand Master Joros with one blow (for violating the laws of parlay; kind of a big deal), and then teleports back to his ship.

Inquisition forces, Grey Knights, and Red Hunters lay siege to Fenris so Logan and 20 Wolf Guard Terminators teleport onto Kysnaros' flagship and Logan kills him personally. He only ends his war against the Inquisition at the behest of Bjorn Fell-Hand.

Logan secures peace between the Inquisition and Space Wolves and no one is declared a heretic/traitor as you'd normally expect.

Logan was elected Supreme Commander during Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade.

Logan and Azrael put aside their chapter's animosity towards one another and together they won a big victory at the Battle of Kasr Sonnen against a force many times their size.

Basically I play Space Wolves because they are the most human of the Space Marines, and Logan Grimnar is the only Chapter Master with the guts to do what he thinks is right regardless of the consequences. And I like to think its because of that, as well as his tactical abilities, he is highly respected among the other Chapter Masters. He and Azrael even have mutual respect for one another IIRC, despite their Chapter's history.

You forgot to add "Creed's drinking buddy"...
If dude like Azreal is willing to heed his command despite their chapter...khm past...he wins in my book...
Nice post... +1

P,S, Molocs data-body transfer is funny as gak,,,

Calgar.

"Mankind boasts many heroes, men of purpose and dedication without whom the Imperium would crumble. Yet even among their ranks there is a man whose nobility overshadows all others. His triumphs are without number and his deeds the stuff of legend. His name is Marneus Calgar, Master of the Ultramarines and Lord of Macragge.

It is on the field of battle that Marneus Calgar shows his immense skill. He is a proficient tactician and a master strategist, who can read the ebb and flow of battle as easily as another man reads words on a page. He leads the Ultramarines in battle if and when he is required, his mere presence inspiring his troops to great acts of valour and courage. It is here, in the eye of the storm, that Marneus Calgar's titanic might is truly realised. He is a God of War and he will crush all before him, for none can stand before the greatest warrior of the Imeprium."

Hear that? Even the Primarchs are only Gods of Battle. Plus he's got two power fists, he punches his foes into submission whether they're giant space bug super commanders or fragments of an ancient war god. There's just a certain something about that that means the others can't compete.

Except that they can...

People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

Because space wolves don't answer to them they answer to the emperor and to him alone.
There first founding also and like ALL first founding they get away with anything that isn't laying waste to the imperial palace.

gilamonster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

Because space wolves don't answer to them they answer to the emperor and to him alone.
There first founding also and like ALL first founding they get away with anything that isn't laying waste to the imperial palace.

No other Chapter has come anywhere near what the Space Wolves have done and gotten away with it with the possible exception of the Grey Knights, and they get away with it because they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The Space Wolves get away with it because they're the wolfiest wolf you have ever seen, or something. It makes no sense at all.


Wolf.

Tyberos the Red Wake.

Hunger and Slake alone make him the best Chapter Master.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

gilamonster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

Because space wolves don't answer to them they answer to the emperor and to him alone.
There first founding also and like ALL first founding they get away with anything that isn't laying waste to the imperial palace.

No other Chapter has come anywhere near what the Space Wolves have done and gotten away with it with the possible exception of the Grey Knights, and they get away with it because they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The Space Wolves get away with it because they're the wolfiest wolf you have ever seen, or something. It makes no sense at all.


Wolf.

BT number around 6000,blood Angeles and there successor chapters turn on there allies and kill them. And had the Ordo mallus went to war with the wolves they risk the other chapters especially the first founding chapters joining the wolves and a new civil war for something there divided on.

gilamonster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

gilamonster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
People pile hate on Calgar and Draigo for them being, supposedly, Mary Sues, but Grimnar always gets a pass because wolf wolf wolf or something. It's one of the reasons the Space Wolves are one of my least favourite Chapters. They get away with killing Grey Knight Grand Masters, waging open war against the Ecclesiarchy, partying with Eldar (!!) and being massive hypocrites (no, our Librarians are different). There's just heaps upon heaps of stuff that would get other Chapters excommunicated that the Wolves just get to completely ignore, with no consequence at all.

Because space wolves don't answer to them they answer to the emperor and to him alone.
There first founding also and like ALL first founding they get away with anything that isn't laying waste to the imperial palace.

No other Chapter has come anywhere near what the Space Wolves have done and gotten away with it with the possible exception of the Grey Knights, and they get away with it because they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The Space Wolves get away with it because they're the wolfiest wolf you have ever seen, or something. It makes no sense at all.


Wolf.

BT number around 6000,blood Angeles and there successor chapters turn on there allies and kill them. And had the Ordo mallus went to war with the wolves they risk the other chapters especially the first founding chapters joining the wolves and a new civil war for something there divided on.

BT number around 6000 and haven't ever done anything to make the Inquisition doubt their loyalty. The Blood Angels never turned on anyone, that was the Flesh Tearers and they're currently under Inquisitorial investigation. The reason they haven't suffered retribution yet is because the timeline's frozen, not because they have plot armour the size of Australia. Regardless of whether the Ordo Malleus could afford to fight the Wolves or not, the Wolves shooting down Sisters for no reason while being completely cool with throwing a party for some Eldar should be grounds for the Ecclesiarchy to just blow Fenris up and be done with it.

I didn't think the ecclesiarchy had power over the space marines only the high lords could excommunication a chapter.

And when did they party with the eldar?

Dispite what you say about the Wolves answering to the Enperor, its still BS. EVERYONE in the Imperium except the Inquisition falls under the jurisdiction of the High Lords as dipected in Imperial Hierachy chart on page 139 of the Big Rulebook.

text removed.

reds8n

They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

 Deadshot wrote:
They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

Dude, we are talking about GW, besides remember Kyras the Khorne librarian ? If this isn't a reason for purge I don't know what is......

 Deadshot wrote:
They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

The Imperium is a group of many disparate factions within factions.
The only common thing they have is their own need for survival.
The Ecclesiarchy, The Astartes, The Munitorum, The Arbites, The Inquisition, The Navy, The Mechanicus, the Navigators...
Each group is more or less reliant on the other (Some more than others, some less so) for survival.
Within each group there are further factions. The Ad Mech has many factions, the Ecclesiarchy is the same. The Inquisition is noted for it's factions being at war with each other in some cases.
Just because the SW fought one Inquisitor doesn't mean they are wholly against the Inquisition. It's more than likely they have many allies within the Inquisition.
The Imperium has an underlying political system which is absurdly complex. Being a First Founding chapter the SW have many allies which make an all out war or a declaration of heresy or rebellion against them politically impossible, like many first founding chapters I'd imagine.

Exactly, I agree with you. The First Founding staus makes it too risky but the fact remains they performed an act of treason against the Inquisition, who are the Right Hand ofthe Emperor. Just because no one cared or did anything about it doesn't mean he didn't do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
They get away with it because they are first founding yes. That's the only reason. Still don't like it. Fighting the system SHOULD get you punished. The Imperium isn't a democracy, nor socialist or communst. Do as you're told or suffer the consequences. That is how the Imperium works. And only the Inquisition are above the Law.

Dude, we are talking about GW, besides remember Kyras the Khorne librarian ? If this isn't a reason for purge I don't know what is......

Just because Khorne destests psykers doesn't mean he won't use them as long as they bring blood and skulls.

And despite punches to GK, EC, RH, and the "I" Logan (Creeds drinking buddy) is still elected as commander of imperial forces against Abby's 13th pink crusade.....

This tells you something....