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I recently got a lump of backdated pay, so I thought I'd splurge on some new stuff. I was originally going to bulk out my existing GW armies, but started looking at some competitor products, and got lured in by the shinies. Thought I'd post my initial impressions up here in case anyone else is thinking of starting another system. I should say, I'm more of a painter than a gamer, but I do play too.

Caveat: I don't think we really need another pricing thread...

War machine

I bought the 2 player battle box for about £60. Things of worth in the box: A mini rulebook, stat cards for the included units, a bunch of miniatures and 6x D6. Everything else is just filler, and the paper ruler is actually pretty insulting.

There are two forces in the box, that seem fairly well balanced. There are 17 minis in the box, of which, 4 are 'dreadnaught' class, i.e. big minis. Talking of big, they are all pretty big. They seem a lot chunkier than GW models, with only the 2 warcasters seeming in a similar general scale to GW. The Man-o-war troops for example, dwarf a standard Space Marine. There is little in the way of assembly instructions, and there seems to be no logic on how the parts are bagged up. Menoth models are bagged individually for example, while the 5 Man-o-war models are in one big bag.

The minis are pretty nice, but the level of flash and mold lines is pretty horrific. Not sure if they are plastic or resin, but the crud seems pretty difficult to remove. I usually just scrape with a scalpel, but these need to be cut off. The material gets chewed up by my files.

Pros - Well balanced forces, and extremely good value (the models if bought separate would cost 2-3 times what I paid for the box.
Cons - Some pretty rough casting, and no counters - if the box is supposed to include everything you need to play, it wouldn't cost much to throuw a handful of plastic counters in there.

Dust Tactics

I bought the revised core set for £55. It includes 2 starter armies, the rulebook, 6 special dice, two pretty crap paper gaming 'boards', some card terrain tiles, a few small pieces of plastic terrain, unit stat cards and a campaign book, which are all pretty nice, apart from the paper 'boards'.

This set is unusual, in that the models come assembled and pre-primed, so you can game straight away. The flip side of this, is that they have been primed with mold lines still on there, so you can't really paint straight away. The models are made of a pretty soft plastic, and a lot of the weapons are bent, so these factors combined mean prep time for painting is more or less the same. If you try to game with the models 'out the box', weapon hands and stuff fall off, so its not ideal. The models are pretty sweet though. Again, the included value is quite high - 28 minis, including 2 'walkers' - dreadnaught sized tanks. The game has very simple rules, yet a lot of depth to the gameplay.

Pros - Models pre assembled and pre primed. 2 balanced forces out the box. Unusual look to the models.
Cons - Models pre assembled and pre primed. Crap gaming board, a lot of bent weapons and such, soft plastic, mold lines.

Infinity

There is no Infinity starter box, so I bought 2 'starter packs' - Aleph and Tohaa, which incidentally are probably the two most complex factions to play. These two packs cost about £60. They include 6 minis each, and nothing else. They are all small minis too, so not the best in terms of model value. However, the rules can be downloaded for free.

The six models for each side are not particularly well balanced, and I think another £50 or so will be required before I host 'proper' games. Prep time is lengthy - the models are metal, and I'm pinning all the way to stop frustration at a later date. However, (and this is entirely subjective), what infinity loses in value against the others, it makes up for in aesthetics. The models are stunning, with a huge variety of poses, and out of all the games I've bought, I'm looking forward to painting these most. They make me want to really try and raise my game to do them justice.

Pros - Stunning models, very few mold lines, free pdf rules.
Cons - Pretty Damned Expensive. No starter set. Faction starter packs are not balanced pointwise.

So, those are my initial thoughts. I was going to get Malifaux too, but they don't do a starter as such either, and I don't really want to trawl internet forums to find out which models are useful or not. I was assured that in infinity there are no useless models. I'll maybe get some malifaux stuff at a later date.

Looking forward to getting wired into the gaming aspects once everything is built and primed.

Quite interesting to read the perspective of someone coming into these games...

Definitely agree with the painting side of Infinity; my ability was woefully inadequate when I bought my first minis, but I like to think I was forced to improve through painting them.

Are you planning on going to the next steps with these, and really getting into them, or trying out some new 'starters' (if you're crazy and need to collect stuff for about 8 different systems? )

Two notes on the Warmachine stuff;
A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.
2.) It comes with the faction's medium based units, as those were the first ones that made the transition to plastic, so the scale does seem weird. The vast majority of infantry you're otherwise going to see is more akin to the size of the Warcasters.

 AduroT wrote:
A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.

It's actually a plastic/resin mix like finecast but without GW's inept execution. And like finecast, it will slowly gum up your superglue if you use a brush applicator like the one in GW's bottles.

 Eggs wrote:
I recently got a lump of backdated pay, so I thought I'd splurge on some new stuff. I was originally going to bulk out my existing GW armies, but started looking at some competitor products, and got lured in by the shinies. Thought I'd post my initial impressions up here in case anyone else is thinking of starting another system. I should say, I'm more of a painter than a gamer, but I do play too.

Caveat: I don't think we really need another pricing thread...

War machine

I bought the 2 player battle box for about £60. Things of worth in the box: A mini rulebook, stat cards for the included units, a bunch of miniatures and 6x D6. Everything else is just filler, and the paper ruler is actually pretty insulting.

There are two forces in the box, that seem fairly well balanced. There are 17 minis in the box, of which, 4 are 'dreadnaught' class, i.e. big minis. Talking of big, they are all pretty big. They seem a lot chunkier than GW models, with only the 2 warcasters seeming in a similar general scale to GW. The Man-o-war troops for example, dwarf a standard Space Marine. There is little in the way of assembly instructions, and there seems to be no logic on how the parts are bagged up. Menoth models are bagged individually for example, while the 5 Man-o-war models are in one big bag.

The minis are pretty nice, but the level of flash and mold lines is pretty horrific. Not sure if they are plastic or resin, but the crud seems pretty difficult to remove. I usually just scrape with a scalpel, but these need to be cut off. The material gets chewed up by my files.

Pros - Well balanced forces, and extremely good value (the models if bought separate would cost 2-3 times what I paid for the box.
Cons - Some pretty rough casting, and no counters - if the box is supposed to include everything you need to play, it wouldn't cost much to throuw a handful of plastic counters in there.

Dust Tactics

I bought the revised core set for £55. It includes 2 starter armies, the rulebook, 6 special dice, two pretty crap paper gaming 'boards', some card terrain tiles, a few small pieces of plastic terrain, unit stat cards and a campaign book, which are all pretty nice, apart from the paper 'boards'.

This set is unusual, in that the models come assembled and pre-primed, so you can game straight away. The flip side of this, is that they have been primed with mold lines still on there, so you can't really paint straight away. The models are made of a pretty soft plastic, and a lot of the weapons are bent, so these factors combined mean prep time for painting is more or less the same. If you try to game with the models 'out the box', weapon hands and stuff fall off, so its not ideal. The models are pretty sweet though. Again, the included value is quite high - 28 minis, including 2 'walkers' - dreadnaught sized tanks. The game has very simple rules, yet a lot of depth to the gameplay.

Pros - Models pre assembled and pre primed. 2 balanced forces out the box. Unusual look to the models.
Cons - Models pre assembled and pre primed. Crap gaming board, a lot of bent weapons and such, soft plastic, mold lines.

Infinity

There is no Infinity starter box, so I bought 2 'starter packs' - Aleph and Tohaa, which incidentally are probably the two most complex factions to play. These two packs cost about £60. They include 6 minis each, and nothing else. They are all small minis too, so not the best in terms of model value. However, the rules can be downloaded for free.

The six models for each side are not particularly well balanced, and I think another £50 or so will be required before I host 'proper' games. Prep time is lengthy - the models are metal, and I'm pinning all the way to stop frustration at a later date. However, (and this is entirely subjective), what infinity loses in value against the others, it makes up for in aesthetics. The models are stunning, with a huge variety of poses, and out of all the games I've bought, I'm looking forward to painting these most. They make me want to really try and raise my game to do them justice.

Pros - Stunning models, very few mold lines, free pdf rules.
Cons - Pretty Damned Expensive. No starter set. Faction starter packs are not balanced pointwise.
May I ask why you consider Infinity models more expensive?

So, those are my initial thoughts. I was going to get Malifaux too, but they don't do a starter as such either, and I don't really want to trawl internet forums to find out which models are useful or not. I was assured that in infinity there are no useless models. I'll maybe get some malifaux stuff at a later date.

Looking forward to getting wired into the gaming aspects once everything is built and primed.

Pacific - yes, I'm going to take it further, play a few more games, maybe pick up an extra unit here or there.

Mrpym - i consider the infinity stuff more expensive, because it IS more expensive. As far as starters go, Warmachine averages about £3.50 per mini (including some 'big' models). Dust averages about £1.96 per mini (including some big models), and all the rulebooks, dice etc add to the value of both games. Infinity starters average about £5 per model, with no large models, and no extras that add to the value. In addition, the infinity starter packs aren't really enough to play a decent sized game, where as the other two are.

Infinity's prices, whilst higher on a per models basis, are in line with what all-metal Skirmish games have always charged.

If you only need 12 guys ever to play a game, and all of those are all-metal unique sculpts, then it's not a problem paying a higher price per model.

(Spoken by somebody who once had 12 Confrontation warbands)

I will be following this thread

Riquende - while I don't mind paying the higher price, as the models are pretty nice, you certainly need more than the 12 guys. 6 a side is a bit meh, and as I said, the 6 for each side are unbalanced point wise. I think £100 is a realistic target to aim for to have two balanced, useable factions, which means infinity is averaging nearly double the other two to get going.

60 pounds for a starter? Are you sure the store wasn't marking it up? Because that's more than we pay here (mine was about $60).

For which system? Warmachine I was lucky to get for £60, as most online places seemed to be up to £71. Infinity I was £60 for both starters. (6 minis in each) They average about £30 a box.

Edit - if you are wondering why I started two infinity factions, I like to have at least two factions for a game system, so if a mate is round having a beer, and we get the urge, we can just play with my stuff - no fuss. I also wanted to have a reasonable base point to compare systems, to see who wins my spending in the future!

Yeah, I was talking about Infinity. I thought you were talking about a single starter though.

I think historical companies (especially battlefront) are becoming competitors to GW, so here are comments on two starter sets i have had experience of.

Flames of War - Open Fire

Box is available for around £50 and you get a whole lot of stuff for your money, you get plenty of models though the allied tanks can be a pain in the ass to get assembled and looking good.

You get two balanced armies so a game is playable right out the box, you get six shermans, three sherman fireflies, 3 stugs, 2 pak 40 anti tank guns and over 100 miniatures to go with them. The plastic infantry in my opinion being some of the best 15mm infantry models out there. You also get a V1 rocket as scenery, and then plenty of card board tokens and templates as well as a mini rulebook and a quick start guide. The box really is huge value for money.

Its also cheap enough that some players i know have picked it up along with a battlegroup rulebook to use the miniatures for a completely different system just putting aside the FOW stuff you get with it, and its still good value for money that way.

Pros - Great models, lots of online painting / modeling support, lots of models, rulebook included, great value for money, plenty of dice.
Cons - Some models are hard to put together, if you want to expand the armies you would have to buy some sort of supplement for armies lists.


Bolt Action - Assault on Normandy

If you shop around you can pick up the box for around £50

In it your getting 40 28mm miniatures, they are multi part plastic kits with plenty of options on how you want to assemble them (weapon choices etc), the models themselves are rather nice no real mold lines to complain about and go together very well. You also get some plastic scenery, a ruined farm house, its very nice but if its all you have it will mean some rather boring games.

You get overall 20 German Heer infantry and 20 American infantry, and while this is enough to game with you would soon find yourself wanting to expand for a more interesting experience, this is a slight let down however the good point to this is the full sized rulebook that is included has armies lists and rules for all sides so you will not have to buy any more books at least in order to expand your force. Include as well are order dice that are used somewhat like tokens in a game.

Pros - Nice plastic minatures with plenty of options, Full rulebook included that has all the army list you need in
Cons - Limited gaming before wanting to expand

Salad fingers - sounds interesting. Don't know why I didn't consider any historicals. It seems the starter boxes in general are great value (GW included). I think the lack of a proper 2 player starter for infinity (and malifaux) possibly costs them some sales.

Can I suggest you try Dreadball, Dreadball fever has recently hit my gaming club, and it would be really interesting to here your thoughts on that system.

Infinity may lack the 2 player starter but they don't force you to buy a rulebook. If I want to play Warhammer I need to either buy a 2 player starter that only has 2 out of the 12+ factions or the $160 (AUD) rulebook. With infinity I just need the starter I want.

Though it would be nice if they did something like spartan games who don't have an official 2 player starter set but do offer discounts if you pick up 2/4/8 starter sets at the same time.

Compared to GW though both are excellent as they really are model companies. They give away their rules while relying on the quality of their models to make the sales.

 Eggs wrote:
Salad fingers - sounds interesting. Don't know why I didn't consider any historicals. It seems the starter boxes in general are great value (GW included). I think the lack of a proper 2 player starter for infinity (and malifaux) possibly costs them some sales.

I would agree, much more attracted by something i can play / try straight out a box, means i have ended up with X-wing, a couple of the axis and allies games and wings of glory on the weight of the starter boxes. Probably is one of the reasons i have never really looked at infinity

Warmahordes starter boxes have just had a price rise in the UK/EU but still present a great value way to get into the games.

Other games have a different approach for tickling new players into spending, and keep spending. Some get it right, some not so right.

Still the best of the moment is X-wing, but its a very different proposition to something like Infinity.

I looked at x-wing. The starter is dirt cheap, though I've been advised the game is a money pit! No more so than most probably.

Jonolikespie - I can see where you are coming from, but I have to say, island of blood and dark vengeance are incredibly good value for money. IOB formed the core of my high elves army, and furnished me with a rulebook, and a pile of skaven to sell on ebay. By the time they were sold, I'd effectively paid the same for 27 models (including a monstrous creature) as I paid for six infinity models. Plus the all important rules.

I'm not putting Corvus belli down - they have a very different business model. Just saying if they put together a 2 player starter box or bundle deal, they might just attract a few more players. It's exactly the reason I avoided malifaux.

 Eggs wrote:
Pacific - yes, I'm going to take it further, play a few more games, maybe pick up an extra unit here or there.

Mrpym - i consider the infinity stuff more expensive, because it IS more expensive. As far as starters go, Warmachine averages about £3.50 per mini (including some 'big' models). Dust averages about £1.96 per mini (including some big models), and all the rulebooks, dice etc add to the value of both games. Infinity starters average about £5 per model, with no large models, and no extras that add to the value. In addition, the infinity starter packs aren't really enough to play a decent sized game, where as the other two are.

I should think its more expensive if you compare the metal to plastic/resin/mix from other companies.

 Eggs wrote:
Riquende - while I don't mind paying the higher price, as the models are pretty nice, you certainly need more than the 12 guys.

I don't play Infinity, I was talking about Skirmish games in a more general sense. Having said that, I have seen players at my local club play the game with 10-12 models.

The trouble with starter boxes is that they're of little value for people not interested in the included factions, and when games start to increase beyond the 4 that most games launch with you're more likely to exclude rather than include. Starter army boxes per faction are a good idea but only if they're balanced against each other (Hell Dorado's starter boxes were full size warbands, Urban War I think also did this).

Edit - I am purely talking about starters for all-metal small-model-count skirmish games in the above sentence.

Well this has become a infinity is cheap/pricy pretty quick.

I liked your reviews, I wasnt aware of warmachines plastic stuff, the only stuff Ive had personally was metal so that was news to me, I second whoever said you should try out Bolt Action or Flames of War. I just got the small FoW set with the 5 tanks and I still feel its a good value, but I did only pay 20 bucks for it. I think the Bolt Action stuff is all good value for what you get, I bought a command squad the other day and am very happy with it, 9 bucks for 3 models doesnt bother me after playing 15-25 for a 40k HQ.

 Breotan wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.

It's actually a plastic/resin mix like finecast but without GW's inept execution. And like finecast, it will slowly gum up your superglue if you use a brush applicator like the one in GW's bottles.

No, it isn't. It's PVC.

 Breotan wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
A.) It's plastic, but a different kind of plastic than the GW standard. For example, plastic glue will not work on it, you have to use super glue.

It's actually a plastic/resin mix like finecast but without GW's inept execution. And like finecast, it will slowly gum up your superglue if you use a brush applicator like the one in GW's bottles.

I don't know, most of their first gen 'plastics' that I got were pretty ineptly done, too. Soft detail. Horrific mould lines in places that were hard to remove. I still have nightmares about the plastic Ironclad chassis and the shoulder mould lines. Maybe the newer plastics are better, but please don't pretend their early attempts were great. They weren't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Eggs-- Really great input here.

I'd encourage you to check out Freebooter's Fate. Really great, clean sculpts. Two people can get in for less than $40 USD a piece for a starter box, which has adequate rules to play.

Enjoy the new games. I play all three and they are alot of fun.

I will add a comment on Privateer's 'plastics' I have purchased three Retribution of Scyrah starters in plastic. The detail on some of the mechs is a bit soft. The casting is also not the best. The biggest drawback is that the moldlines are hard to clean up. I had similar experiences with Mantic's 'restic' Veer Myn.

For me, the PVC is not a substitute for metal or plastic. It is more difficult to work with than metal, and is not as inexpensive as plastic.

PP has learned a bit when it comes to their PVC figures. The legion plastics, for example, had their details slightly exaggerated compared to the metals so they'd look like the metals after casting. They turned out great. So have all the 2nd chassis jacks for the WM factions.

I patronize multiple systems and each are bisected into 2 areas for me:

"Single Player" & "Multi-player"

Single player, I define as hobby + fluff + list building + another I can do by myself.

Multi-player, I define as playing the game with others, forums, podcasts, blog posts, ...

40k:
Single Player: Tons of fluff, models vary in type but getting a painted army fielded is the most difficult of these systems
Multi: Simply the top dog, player base very strong in DC
Grade: A

What would get me to switch: Nothing, currently the system I'm the most invested in.

Warmahordes:
Single Player: I dislike the fluff but there is a bunch of it and PP advances the story line, the models are well done and getting a fully painted army fielded is quick and easy
Multi: Big on-line community and medium sized player base in DC, which seems to be growing
Grade: B

What would get me to switch: Hmm...I'd need to be more interested in the fluff and if some of the models' ascetic was improved (Ios warjacks) and if the player base took over 40k, I'd switch

Infinity:
Single Player: Fluff is cool but limited to the rule books. The models are great and fun to paint and a painted army is quick to field
Multi: Growing on-line community, the player base in DC seems to be growing but small
Grade: B-

What would get me to switch: If the rules books were better organized and the player base exploded in DC, I'd switch over to this game. Plastic mini's would be nice

Dust:
Single Player: The fluff is interesting but scarce, I buy the pre-painted models
Multi: on-line community isn't very active and there is a small player base in the DC area
Grade: C+

What would get me to switch: If the DC player based moved to this game, I'd follow and have it become my main army sized game

DW / FSA:
Single Player: No fluff to speak of, few models to paint and not much in the way of conversions
Multi: Not many forums or podcasts or blogs and these systems had a strong launch but have fallen off in the DC area
Grade: D

What would get me to switch: Needs fluff, needs better support from the parent company, needs more modeling options and I need more people to play against. Basically, this system is falling away in DC and it seems to be the fault of the folks that make the game.

evancich,

With respect I think you need to define where you game as I know there are stores in the DC area (in Northern Virginia) where Flames of War and Warmahordes gaming is more popular than 40K now.

Really what I've noticed in this area are stores becoming the "center" of certain game systems, not exclusively of course aside from the few GW stores but those don't really count anyway.

I'm in MD, so Drop Zone, Dream Wizards, Hobby Town, Hobby Works... Games & Stuff (FoW and Malifaux are big here, but still a decent sized 40k group)

Single player: 40k still wins for me, but I'd rank Dust higher if they stepped up their fluff production

Multi: Other than Warmahordes, 40k is the winner in the on-line realm

Sure, GW's price increases seem to be slowing new players' entrance into 40k, but some of us have 25+ years of models and hence 40k will have a very long tail

Warmahordes might take over the northern DC area, but there still aren't nearly as many events as 40k events and other systems are slowing its growth (like Infinity and Malifaux)

Just a quick note on Flames of War.
You can download FREE PDF army lists from Battlefronts own web site to expand your FoW armies out of the Open Fire Box.
And you can use the FREE army builder EasyArmy.com which is approved by Battlefront.

You do NOT have to buy additional army books if you do not want to...(But they are well worth the money IMO. )

Also you can add to your 15mm WWII armies using other companies products, (Plastic Soldier Company ,Zevda, Forged In Battle, Command decision/Skytrex, etc.)