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Does anyone else think that sword are useless this addition? Against MEq armies, the mace is just better and it also than against TEqs. Axes are a poor man's power fist. What does everyone think about giving swords rending representing the off chance of a thrusting wound going through armor? It'll really help out units like Banshees as well as certain ICs that have been gimped this edition.

No, that would make them the go to choice. Why take a mace or axe when you can have a weapon that murders MEQ and has a chance to Murder TEQ?

You are wrong about maces killing MEQ more than swords.

Assuming the model has 3 attacks:

Swords inflict 0.333 more unsaved wounds against MEQ than maces.

Maces inflict 0.83 more unsaved wounds against TEQ than swords.

Axes inflict 0.792 more unsaved wounds against TEQ than maces, 0.875 more wounds than swords.

Source: http://mathhammer40k.com/melee/infantry


I would go ahead and make the calculations for rending, but it doesn't seem to be working.

 acekevin8412 wrote:
Does anyone else think that sword are useless this addition? Against MEq armies, the mace is just better and it also than against TEqs. Axes are a poor man's power fist. What does everyone think about giving swords rending representing the off chance of a thrusting wound going through armor? It'll really help out units like Banshees as well as certain ICs that have been gimped this edition.

I'm confused by this. Power Sword is AP3, it is literally ideal for killing marines and their equivalents. The Maul is actually pretty terrible at killing marines, much better against 4+ save or worse and light vehicles.

The Math v Marines


The Math v Terminators

 reidmc wrote:

 acekevin8412 wrote:
Does anyone else think that sword are useless this addition? Against MEq armies, the mace is just better and it also than against TEqs. Axes are a poor man's power fist. What does everyone think about giving swords rending representing the off chance of a thrusting wound going through armor? It'll really help out units like Banshees as well as certain ICs that have been gimped this edition.

I'm confused by this. Power Sword is AP3, it is literally ideal for killing marines and their equivalents. The Maul is actually pretty terrible at killing marines, much better against 4+ save or worse and light vehicles.

The Math v Marines

Spoiler:

strength 4 Power Sword hit on Marine
50% wound
100% of wounds penetrate
50% of hits kill

strength 4+2 Power Maul hit on Marine
83% wound
33% of wounds penetrate
28% of hits kill <Little more then half>

strength 4+1 Power Axe hit on Marine
66% to wound
100% of wounds penetrate
66% of hits kill <Hits Last>

Sword Great, Axe Good, Maul poor

The Math v Terminators

Spoiler:

strength 4 Power Sword hit on Terminator
50% wound
17% of wounds penetrate
8% of hits kill

strength 4+2 Power Maul hit on Terminator
83% wound
17% of wounds penetrate
14% of hits kill

strength 4+1 Power Axe hit on Terminator
66% to wound
66% of wounds penetrate (invulnerable save)
44% of hits kill <Hits Last>

Axe Good, Sword and Maul Very Poor

Actually, the mace is twice as good at killing termies than the sword, as you can see in my previous post. When going against a MEQ heavy army though, it's better to go for the sword.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 reidmc wrote:

 acekevin8412 wrote:
Does anyone else think that sword are useless this addition? Against MEq armies, the mace is just better and it also than against TEqs. Axes are a poor man's power fist. What does everyone think about giving swords rending representing the off chance of a thrusting wound going through armor? It'll really help out units like Banshees as well as certain ICs that have been gimped this edition.

I'm confused by this. Power Sword is AP3, it is literally ideal for killing marines and their equivalents. The Maul is actually pretty terrible at killing marines, much better against 4+ save or worse and light vehicles.

The Math v Marines

Spoiler:

strength 4 Power Sword hit on Marine
50% wound
100% of wounds penetrate
50% of hits kill

strength 4+2 Power Maul hit on Marine
83% wound
33% of wounds penetrate
28% of hits kill <Little more then half>

strength 4+1 Power Axe hit on Marine
66% to wound
100% of wounds penetrate
66% of hits kill <Hits Last>

Sword Great, Axe Good, Maul poor

The Math v Terminators

Spoiler:

strength 4 Power Sword hit on Terminator
50% wound
17% of wounds penetrate
8% of hits kill

strength 4+2 Power Maul hit on Terminator
83% wound
17% of wounds penetrate
14% of hits kill

strength 4+1 Power Axe hit on Terminator
66% to wound
66% of wounds penetrate (invulnerable save)
44% of hits kill <Hits Last>

Axe Good, Sword and Maul Very Poor

Actually, the mace is slightly better at killing termies than the sword, as you can see in my previous post. When going against a MEQ heavy army though, it's better to go for the sword.

Yeah I know (14% of hits kill w/ mace to 8% of hit kill w/ sword). However their both horrible when compared to the axe (44%).

Oh yeah, the axe murders everything. It even murders MEQ. It's unwieldy though, so the sword might be a better choice.

Thanks for the replies. And I'm also aware that against EVERYTHING BUT MEQ mace is better, that was a typo.

The sword is a niche weapon. It specializes in killing MEQ. And considering how prevalent MEQ are, I don't think it needs a boost.

From a flexibility standpoint, I like mauls better these days. They are better vs. a wider range of targets. But there are a lot of guys in power armor that need killing, at initiative value, so the sword is still a valid choice.

 acekevin8412 wrote:
Does anyone else think that sword are useless this addition? Against MEq armies, the mace is just better and it also than against TEqs. Axes are a poor man's power fist. What does everyone think about giving swords rending representing the off chance of a thrusting wound going through armor? It'll really help out units like Banshees as well as certain ICs that have been gimped this edition.

Would make them far too good.
I think you should instead look at creating a different weapon all together, that could use the power weapon profile.

Something like
Power Rapier: AP 5 and Rending
Power Pick: AP-, +1 strength on the charge, and Rending.

At least for CSM any unit that would ever want to take a sword would always be better or the same with a single lightning claw, hence the great big pile of swords now in my bitz box.

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
At least for CSM any unit that would ever want to take a sword would always be better or the same with a single lightning claw, hence the great big pile of swords now in my bitz box.

I also love the single LC, but the sword is better against T3 opponenets(and T4 if the model carrying it is Str5)

Need to keep in mind the changes ity would have to fixed power weapon types aswell.

Hellblades are fixed as swords.
So throwing rending on them with a S5 monster means your then able to hunt armour like ymgarl stealers do.

Granted, i'd love nothing better since my khornate daemons took a massive hit by it, but it would unbalance stuff pretty quickly.
It would make units like banshees better, but then you run the risk of making them the go-to instead of a choice between them and scorps.

It really has little bearing on a single model, but when a unit runs them it changes alot.

We have power weapons as rending against vehicles, but we don't use hull points.

 Jackal wrote:
Need to keep in mind the changes ity would have to fixed power weapon types aswell.

Hellblades are fixed as swords.
So throwing rending on them with a S5 monster means your then able to hunt armour like ymgarl stealers do.

Granted, i'd love nothing better since my khornate daemons took a massive hit by it, but it would unbalance stuff pretty quickly.
It would make units like banshees better, but then you run the risk of making them the go-to instead of a choice between them and scorps.

It really has little bearing on a single model, but when a unit runs them it changes alot.

Valid points, if it was a new rule in the vain of Bladestorm, how would it balance like?

For example, wounds of 6 are AP2. Armour-penetration rolls are unaffected. This way it it limited by the strength of the model and it won't boost the anti-armour capabilities of the aren't inadvertently improved.