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This has probably been discussed at great length before but what are your opnions on the IG artillery, how decent are Basilsks compared to manticors etc,

Also what do you guys think about equiping your CCS officer with a powerfist? is it worth it, if not what are your alternitaves?

Thanks

I like powerfists for CCSs. 15 points isn't too much to spend for an insurance policy against close combat. Plus, when a guardsmen blows up a battle tank or punches the lights out of a demon prince, it's extra awesome. Doesn't happen often, but it's not too much of a cost to lug one around every game just in case.

As for artillery, a manticore is much better than a basilisk. The one advantage you do get with the basilisk, though, is that you can take them in squads of three, which means you can sink a lot more points into them. In any case, neither are as good as the colossus or medusa, as the former is ACTUALLY good against infantry (what with Ap3 and, more importantly, ignores cover), and the latter is ACTUALLY good against vehicles (what with being Ap2 or, if you care, Ap1 and with melta), and terminators, and other hard targets.

I'll argue that Manticores are by far the best artillery in the IG codex. The potential for damage simply conjures that Jacky Chan image where he's saying, "My mind is full of feth".


As an IG player, Marines don't scare me at all. I'm not worried about AP3'ing their asses...I have plasma and lascannons and devices that put out tons of wounds to deal with that. What am I worried about?

1) Killing Xenos behind ADLs. Actually, killing anything behind ADLs.
2) Killing large units like Cultists and Plague Zombies, neither of which even get a save or FNP against S10.
3) Insta-killing T4 and T5 things like Paladins, unmarked Spawn, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, etc. Manticores put enough wounds on the unit to do this well.
4) Splattering vehicles if my opponent takes them. Manticores bend parking lots over, to put it nicely.


I run 2 Manticores at 1500 and literally tabled a Dark Eldar player in two turns. Two rounds of shooting also killed off almost 30 Fire Warriors behind an ADL in the last game I played. Most of that was Manticore love. The Multiple Barrage rules give you the opportunity to "walk" shots back onto target. Even if you miss, subsequent rolls in your favor, or rolls of a "Hit" allow you to place that template pretty much wherever you want. While all artillery can snipe enemies, Manticores put a metric feth ton of wounds on a unit, so even though the AP is relatively poor, the S is high and you're going to instakill most things that you hit by sheer mass of wounds.

Long story short - many people play 6th edition 40k by castling. Manticores punish the hell out of people for castling. They also punish the hell out of people who take minimal scoring units and leave one back on their home objective.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

2) Killing large units like Cultists and Plague Zombies, neither of which even get a save or FNP against S10.
3) Insta-killing T4 and T5 things like Paladins, unmarked Spawn, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, etc. Manticores put enough wounds on the unit to do this well.

S10 AP2 large blast, in a groups of 1-3. I really like the Medusa. The only problem it has is things in cover, but there are other counters to that.

I've found that using a few units that can kill everything leaves you with too few shots, and too many targets.

To the OP, your choice in artie should be supporting your other choices, filling holes that the rest of your list has.

I find the collusus to be indespensible, str6 ap3 ignores cover means it is the perfect tool for removing infantry from cover, either scoring units or troops with big guns. Your doubling out Xenos and IG on T.

Once I have a battery of 2 collusi added I'll either take a battery of basilisks and/or a manticore.

Used my Manticore for the first time last night and I really liked it. Only rolled more than one blast once for my rockets but it still performed well. The barrage rule meaning that hits come from the centre of the hole is brilliant for hitting units huddled behind their newly wrecked vehicle and landing lots of hits whilst not granting easy cover saves like regular blast weapons.

I can't see me removing it from my list anytime soon.

I've never run my CCS with any upgraded melee weapons before, I have always taken them with a Lascannon team either in a Chimera or behind an ADL and hope no-one gets close enough to have a chat with him. I could see the logic in taking one though as extra punch in CC to try and preserve your Warlord point if he gets in a tight spot.

when a guardsmen blows up a battle tank or punches the lights out of a demon prince, it's extra awesome.

That would be cool but doesnt a powerfisted guardsman allways hit last? and in a 5 man squad what are the chances that he will last that long?

Loving the idea of running up to a prince of Khorne and bopping his face

It seems everyone has there own opinions on the matter of artillery, i think the only problem with the medussa is that you have to fire directly? (i may be wrong about that) while compared to the indirect fire from as basilsk means you can hide it behind cover on the other side of the board.

Also with the manticores,ignoring the 55pts on the basilisk, the limited use of ammunition means that after turn 4 it is just useless, assuming you have left it well behind the front line, leaving it, on the last few turns, being a really expensive heavy flamer/bolter.

A quick question about the manticore, what does the Ordnance Barrage D3 in the statline mean? does it mean it is the number of large blast markers I can place down depending on what i roll? 1-2 1 blast 3-4 2 blasts 5-6 3 blasts?

If you havent noticed yet im a big basilisk fan




PS i know death strike missiles are near useless, unrealiable one shot things, but is it worth taking in a 1500pt game? are there any positive other than huge blast, and the fact your opponent will be laying bricks over it?

Thank you for your input though, much appretiated

Marcus - see the rules for Multiple Barrage. You roll a D3, then scatter the first shot like a normal blast. If you roll multiple blasts, you only roll the scatter dice for subsequent blasts. You "flip" the blast marker in the indicated direction. If you a roll a hit you can place it anywhere as long as the blast marker edge touches the edge of the previously placed blast marker.

Medusae are great and all, but behind an ADL, even a punky little Guardsman is getting a 2+ save. The lack of Ordinance Barrage really makes them suffer. Manticores don't need LOS so you can hide them in the backfield. Rarely do my Manticores actually get destroyed before they've fired the majority of their rockets. Good luck keeping a Medusa alive past T2.

I wouldn't worry about the Limited Ammunition rule. In 4 turns, with a pair of Manticores, you're putting out anywhere from 8 to 24 S10 large blasts that can drop behind cover and snipe enemy models. Usually there isn't too much left on the table to kill anyway at that point.

 Ailaros wrote:
I like powerfists for CCSs. 15 points isn't too much to spend for an insurance policy against close combat. Plus, when a guardsmen blows up a battle tank or punches the lights out of a demon prince, it's extra awesome.

Not going to happen. Daemon Prince or another monstrous creature in CC with your CCS can and will challenge you. You can either refuse (your general with power fist will not fight at all) or you can accept, in which case you will never get to swing that fist. About blowing up a battle tank - how will you get to CC with battle tank with your CCS? If your opponent is at least a bit competent, this cant be done. Power fist in CCS is 15 points wasted...

MarcusMaximus wrote:

when a guardsmen blows up a battle tank or punches the lights out of a demon prince, it's extra awesome.

That would be cool but doesnt a powerfisted guardsman allways hit last? and in a 5 man squad what are the chances that he will last that long?

Sums up my feelings on that matter.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'll argue that Manticores are by far the best artillery in the IG codex.

Long story short - many people play 6th edition 40k by castling. Manticores punish the hell out of people for castling. They also punish the hell out of people who take minimal scoring units and leave one back on their home objective.

This unit is not so great. It is not nearly as good for home objective killing as you say.
Manticore can do almost nothing about plaguebearers on objective in area terrain. It can do only a little to cultists in area terrain (GtG, 3+ cover, proper spacing and you will not always hit).
Manticore can do little to nothing to units with 3+/2+ armor or bikes or cavalry with proper spacing.
Manticore can do almost nothing to wave serpent spam.


Manticore is only really good agains blobs of weak infantry (IG, orks, nids) or low armor vehicles spam (chimeras, rhinos, trukks). IG blobs are used quite heavily as allies. Other units, which are used in nowadays meta, are not really scared by manticores...chimeras and rhinos or other low armor low defense units spam is not used by many players.

Of course, I do not know your meta, but at my place, Manticore is almost without use.

S10 ordinance threatens pretty much any AV, especially since barrage always hits side armor.

That being said I still prefer the old basilisk battery whenever I don't feel like using tanks. 1-3 S9 AP3 barrage ordinance pieplates consistently all game long.

Although if you want sheer lulz the deathstrike makes every game hilarious, either from the launch itself or the frantic race to stop said launch.

So, there are two things you've got to note with the powerfist senior officer. Firstly, he has W3 and a 5++. With the exception of the lord commissar, he's the most survivable model in the guard codex who can take a powerfist. Secondly, it only costs 15 points. This means that it's not going to walk up to a bloodthirster) and beat it BY ITSELF.

It will, however, take that last wound off of weakened monstrous creatures (well, that aren't bloodthirsters). And throw down Ap2 S6 against the rear armor of vehicles. And it's also not too shabby against anything that also strikes at I1, because if you do ANY damage, you've won that exchange, even if the SO gets killed. Plus, it also TRASHES stuff that's worse, like regular MEq or worse.

And it doesn't take up a special or heavy weapons slot. And it's only 15 points. And it gives your SO the chance to be epic. And gives your army a bit out counterassault.

Since I've started running a mech list, I've gotten to swing my SOs powerfist about every other game, or maybe two in three games. It's possible to get some antics in.

Thanks alot Nuggz that certainly clears that up

Manticore is only really good agains blobs of weak infantry (IG, orks, nids) or low armor vehicles spam (chimeras, rhinos, trukks). IG blobs are used quite heavily as allies. Other units, which are used in nowadays meta, are not really scared by manticores...chimeras and rhinos or other low armor low defense units spam is not used by many players.

Of course, I do not know your meta, but at my place, Manticore is almost without use.

so would you argue that the basilisk was better than the manticore for harder stuff such as termies, bikes and such stuff?

and it gives your SO the chance to be epic. And gives your army a bit out counterassault.

hahaha but with the challenge system will my commander last long enough without the 4 other guys to hind behind to use the powerfis?

if you want sheer lulz the deathstrike makes every game hilarious, either from the launch itself or the frantic race to stop said launch.

i suppose that could be a game within itself

Thanks for all the feedback guys it is really helpful and given me alot to think about

 Lothar wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'll argue that Manticores are by far the best artillery in the IG codex.

Long story short - many people play 6th edition 40k by castling. Manticores punish the hell out of people for castling. They also punish the hell out of people who take minimal scoring units and leave one back on their home objective.

This unit is not so great. It is not nearly as good for home objective killing as you say.
Manticore can do almost nothing about plaguebearers on objective in area terrain. It can do only a little to cultists in area terrain (GtG, 3+ cover, proper spacing and you will not always hit).
Manticore can do little to nothing to units with 3+/2+ armor or bikes or cavalry with proper spacing.
Manticore can do almost nothing to wave serpent spam.


Manticore is only really good agains blobs of weak infantry (IG, orks, nids) or low armor vehicles spam (chimeras, rhinos, trukks). IG blobs are used quite heavily as allies. Other units, which are used in nowadays meta, are not really scared by manticores...chimeras and rhinos or other low armor low defense units spam is not used by many players.

Of course, I do not know your meta, but at my place, Manticore is almost without use.

I'm not sure if you know this, but Manticores are S10 AP4 Ordnance Barrage. This means that they actually work swimmingly against vehicles of ALL armor values, and AP pretty much everything without Power Armor or better. Rolling 2 dice means they pose a pretty nasty threat to Land Raiders, and hitting side armor makes them very effective against Russes and Battle Wagons. They also ignore intervening terrain, so you can't really screen a Wagon or Land Raider. I'm not sure what else you're looking for...

MarcusMaximus wrote:with the challenge system will my commander last long enough without the 4 other guys to hind behind to use the powerfist?

He's WS4, W3 with a 5++. There isn't a whole lot that can chump that before I1 rolls around.

Honestly I think a powerfist in a ccs is a waste. Your never going to get to use it especially against a daemon prince because he goes way before you, I usually keep them vanilla except for a master of ordnance, astropath, or officer of fleet. Usually I only take whichever helps your reserves in competitive games when I'm running multiple vendettas. Or I use the one that hurts their reserves to troll heldrake meta. I have had great success with colussus especially against plaque bearers holding OBJS etc. Manticores take chunks out of fleshound spam especially because of the insta death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, LRBT is better than basilisk because it's same stats better armor. I would only take basilisk if playing APOC. or a huge board for that matter.

 Yellohman wrote:
Honestly I think a powerfist in a ccs is a waste. Your never going to get to use it especially against a daemon prince because he goes way before you, I usually keep them vanilla except for a master of ordnance, astropath, or officer of fleet. Usually I only take whichever helps your reserves in competitive games when I'm running multiple vendettas. Or I use the one that hurts their reserves to troll heldrake meta. I have had great success with colussus especially against plaque bearers holding OBJS etc. Manticores take chunks out of fleshound spam especially because of the insta death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, LRBT is better than basilisk because it's same stats better armor. I would only take basilisk if playing APOC. or a huge board for that matter.

But the Bassy gets to ignore cover, not the Russ.

And hits side armor. And is +1S. And is cheaper.

And if you can't see how you could ever get into close combat with a CCS, it's probably because you're not paying attention, honestly. I mean, I wouldn't either if I saw a unit as nothing more than its shooting ability. If you start taking a powerfist and making a focused effort on trying to use it, you'll start seeing more possibilities to make use of it.

 Ailaros wrote:
And if you can't see how you could ever get into close combat with a CCS, it's probably because you're not paying attention, honestly. I mean, I wouldn't either if I saw a unit as nothing more than its shooting ability. If you start taking a powerfist and making a focused effort on trying to use it, you'll start seeing more possibilities to make use of it.

The question is why would you want to get into combat with a CCS.

Just a quick query about the basiilsks minumum range of 36 inch, can i shoot directly at an enemy under that range? or is that a cut of point?

Scratch that ive just re-read the rules about 5 times, and if i am right you can fire at an enemy within 36inch but it counts as an indirect fire and so i dont get to subtract the BS (3) from any scatter? is that correct or am i just rubbish with rules?

MarcusMaximus wrote:
Just a quick query about the basiilsks minumum range of 36 inch, can i shoot directly at an enemy under that range? or is that a cut of point?

Scratch that ive just re-read the rules about 5 times, and if i am right you can fire at an enemy within 36inch but it counts as an indirect fire and so i dont get to subtract the BS (3) from any scatter? is that correct or am i just rubbish with rules?

You can fire under 36", you just don't subtract the firer's BS 3 from the scatter.

Question: thinking of going 2x Medusa and 2x Colossus, should I pay the 10 points and put Bastion Breacher shells in the Medusas? My other heavy will be 1-2 Executioners, so thinking more large AP2 blasts would be better, they can still knock an AV 14 vehicle to poop pretty easily with Ordinance and AP2 rules.

Thanks alarmingrick

 Ailaros wrote:
And hits side armor. And is +1S. And is cheaper.

And if you can't see how you could ever get into close combat with a CCS, it's probably because you're not paying attention, honestly. I mean, I wouldn't either if I saw a unit as nothing more than its shooting ability. If you start taking a powerfist and making a focused effort on trying to use it, you'll start seeing more possibilities to make use of it.

I see what you mean, but still. Their orders are way more valuable, and if they charge into a combat they will most likely get targeted if enemy realizes they have a fist. Unless the sergeants all have fists as well. Never tried it. Kept em mostly vanilla except for lascannons

And that's fine.

I mean, I take CCSs to shoot lascannons/MoO or meltaguns (depending on if they're meched or not). They're there to shout out orders, and they're there to shoot stuff, and for fewer than 100 points (sans transport), it's still a steal.

Spending a few points for a powerfist only ADDS to what they can do. Taking a fist doesn't prevent them from shooting meltaguns at stuff, and it doesn't stop them from issuing orders. They're still a CCS that you love, and you use them accordingly.

But they ALSO, with a fist, have the ability to finish off weakened stuff and a variety of other targets in assault.

Take what they do, and give them more killing power. It's no different than giving the officer a plasma pistol.

Wish I woulda met you before lmao. I gave up on guard. All I did was sit behind aegis and get pwned. It wasn't fun, i basically missed out on two phases of the game. Moving and assault. Assault is amazing fun. However I think I was so deep in the guard suck at everything except shooting stereotype I never even tried it

That power fist saved my company commander in the one game where I ever used it. My CCS was down to 3 strong but had no choice but to charge a Necron Overlord (that or the DL/wraith squad). Of course he challenged, but with a bit of luck and 4+ armor, his war scythe didn't gib my commander. Then, I punched that robot's teeth out. Had more points been given to MSS instead of crazy upgraded crypteks, the outcome could have been much, much worse.
True story.