Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
"We'd rather believe people receiving kick backs from large corporations that have absolutely no vested interest in our health or well being to shove pills down our throats that in many cases are more dangerous then the condition they are being used to treat, then accept the possibility that natural remedies used to treat a wide variety of ailments for millenia might actually be effective. We will do this while taking herbal supplements to promote health and well being."

Is how all that translated.

Just remember, the wonder drug penacilin is a natural remedy.

The ignorance here is beyond all redemption.

You and your cohort don't seem to have the vaguest idea what you're talking about.

I would legitimately like for you to make what you think on how modern medicine is distinctly seperate from herb lore ( and not a modernization of it as i think it is). Also i dont like being a cohort thank you very much but if we really want to get into this a seperate thread might be required.

 Hordini wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
And chemtrails!

Dude, don't post that here! The NSA is watching!

It's the reptilians you should be worried about. Them and the grays are the ones what put the autism in the vaccines.

Freemasons! They're up to something too.

Wake up, sheeple!

 Monster Rain wrote:

Freemasons! They're up to something too.

I can neither confirm nor deny.

See man the chem trails are all just a sign of the problem, Monsanto and Big Pharma are just puppets of a larger and bigger evil, why do you think the Federal courts have passed laws protecting them and their products at every possible turn? Sure you see a tort law victory here and there but nothing changes, they keep pumping the same weird drugs approved by the so called "FDA", which is pretty much just a lobbyist bought and paid for by Monsanto and Big Pharma's puppet masters at this point, so that we don't even know what healthy feels or looks like any more! Hey man you look down, have a pill. You look angry, take a pill. Are you stressed? Another pill! You name it there's a pill for that. Are you just feeling... okay? Holy gak! Take this pill before it's too late! Meanwhile each pill being shoved down your throat has about six pages of side effects that are doing god knows what to your internal chemistry, and will probably require, you guessed it! More pills to fix! Over medicated, under educated pliable sheeple, the western world's down the drain with the twist of a pill bottle.

Why, oh why didn't I take the blue pill?

Because the grays put a chip in your grandfather's head back in the 60s.

Alex Jones has much to answer for.

You bet he does, he's a Master Mason. His entire purpose is to create a lot of fuss and noise and keep everyone distracted from what's really going on. Wheels within wheels my friends, wheels within wheels.

stay classy dakka, or da guvmint will put you on the purge list when the NWO rises...( i seriously would have likes to have a discussion the medicine thing though but the internet is perhaps the wrong place)

FDA says drug is ok. Original creator says drug is ok. Company produces box based on this. Can't sue company that relied on this information rather than doing its own testing. I see no problem with this.

Also, herb lore? Witch trials? The anti science here is just depressing. I think I need some henbane and mercury to make me a little more sanguine.

KM:
Big Pharma is undoubtably corrupt. It has been shown to hide unfavourable evidence, disregard negative results or fail to publish it, to make invalid or useless comparisons, to tamper with trial data and to generally behave in an unscrupulous and "evil" fashion. That is beyond dispute, I reckon.

However, to take this problem, which is a massive, serious problem, and to think the answer is to go back to using "herblore" rather than evidence based medicine utilising the trememdous advances in our understanding of diseases and how our own biochemistry works, is flat out crazy.

I am dead against "A pill for every ill" culture, I am dead against marketing of Pharmaceuticals. But NEITHER of those are a problem with the science behind drugs, neither of those are an excuse to back track to "natural" remedies which are "better" because of some body of evidence we have never seen. They are both problems of culture and regulation. Some herbs may be useful in the treatment of conditions, I do not dispute that. But they are in no way a replacement for evidence based medicine. When herbs and plant or animal extracts work, medicine adopts them.

What amazes me about these sorts of medical conspiracy theories is that people with very little expertise begin to assume that they know better than the many thousands of experts who have dedicated their lives to a particular field. It is a form of delusion.

Edit: A friend of my brothers recently died from Malaria because the lady in the Pharmacy recommended "natural solutions" of dubious efficacy to him rather than what actually works- mosquito nets and insect repellent with proper malaria meds. It makes me angry when people propogate this sort of nonsense because it does cost lives. It also costs lives when Big Pharma lie and decieve intentionally, which is probably worse, but to combat that you don't need to adopt such an extreme stance that you also promote viewpoints that lead to harm.

Wow, I was going to comment. Apparently this thread escalated quickly.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Not to mention most herb lore and traditional medicine in Europe got stamped out during the Middle Ages under the auspices of the Catholic church.

Oh the burning times!

Dude, the sources your rely on for history are crazies, and as a result you've ended up posting things in this thread which are crazy.

It was replaced by the much more modern and sensible system of men in goofy hats sticking leeches on you. So we'll never really know what exactly was lost in many cases.

But that won't stop you speculating that it must have been totally awesome super cures.

As to the death rate declining, I'd guess stable food sources, sanitation (Hey guys! What if we stop keeping the bodies in the drinking water?) and the spread of machinery which makes even the few remaining traditional trades like farming significantly less brutal to spend a life time at have just as much to do with it as being able to pick up a scrip for Zoloft at Walgreens. (Or your Pharmacy of choice)

Yeah, no. Those ideas didn't developed the polio vaccine. And they didn't produce the massive reduction in infant mortality we've seen in the last hundred years. Those things were achieved by the application of the scientific method to modern medicine.

 sebster wrote:

Yeah, no. Those ideas didn't developed the polio vaccine. And they didn't produce the massive reduction in infant mortality we've seen in the last hundred years. Those things were achieved by the application of the scientific method to modern medicine.

Not to mention the eradication of smallpox.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not to mention the eradication of smallpox.

No, KalashnikovMarine is actually right about that one. Smallpox was defeated by a secret coven of witches who had worked in secret for centuries, away from the persecution of the Catholic Church*. It was only that big pharma had brainwashed us all with their science and reason that those witches couldn't get anyone to use their medicine when they told us it was eye of newt, that they had to set up pretend pharmaceutical companies to release their vaccine as a pretend sciency thing.







*Why is it always the Catholic Church? There wasn't exactly a shortage of Protestant nutters going about persecuting the gak out of everyone who wasn't Protestant, or in some cases just not quite as fanatical about Protestantism as they were. That's what's so fething boring about these new age conspiracy nuts - their choices of target are so cliche.

 sebster wrote:
I can see the point, to be honest.

I mean, it's kind of silly to insist every company that wants to manufacture a generic brand drug needs to undertake its own testing of what is, basically, an identical product. Instead it should be enough to just take the work already done by the original company and the FDA and copy that warning label.

Yep... that's my read on this. This doesn't absolve the original patent holder from any liability if they were found fraudulent during the developement of their product.

To me, I see this as a function to keep the generic drug's cost lower.

The original article is so full of fail that I officially feel dumber for having even klicked on the link.

The writer of the original link and the motto of that side should have made it clear that this story is complete BS:

Whiteout Press: Independent News at its Best - If it's blacked-out, covered-up or censored, you can find it here!

And even a cursory glance of the article should make you realize it is sensational garbage.

There is just wonderful mental gymnastics that turn the actual facts of the ruling from this:

If the generic versions of the drugs are made from the exact same formula and labeled with the exact same warnings as their brand name counterparts, the generics and their manufacturers were not liable.

To this:

Supreme Court rules Drug Companies exempt from Lawsuits

It's not even worth going into the details of how this rulling was right, or how drug trials and labeling requirments work, when you are basing your initial complaint of an Alex Jones worthy masterpiece of an article.

 sebster wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not to mention the eradication of smallpox.

No, KalashnikovMarine is actually right about that one. Smallpox was defeated by a secret coven of witches who had worked in secret for centuries, away from the persecution of the Catholic Church*. It was only that big pharma had brainwashed us all with their science and reason that those witches couldn't get anyone to use their medicine when they told us it was eye of newt, that they had to set up pretend pharmaceutical companies to release their vaccine as a pretend sciency thing.

Stop being brainwashed. Everyone knows intuitively that the world was better before everything had chemicals in it.

So, if a Generic Drufg manufacturer puts a bunch of low-cost crap into their generic knock-off drug and you get sick/die from it; you are suppose to sue the person who made the original "Brand" version of the drug?

I'm not exactly a legal eagle, but how does that make any sense?

 Hordini wrote:
Why, oh why didn't I take the blue pill?

Because erectile dysfunction isn't an issue?

 Easy E wrote:
So, if a Generic Drufg manufacturer puts a bunch of low-cost crap into their generic knock-off drug and you get sick/die from it; you are suppose to sue the person who made the original "Brand" version of the drug?

I'm not exactly a legal eagle, but how does that make any sense?

Let's try this again, shall we:

If the generic versions of the drugs are made from the exact same formula and labeled with the exact same warnings as their brand name counterparts, the generics and their manufacturers were not liable.

And of course we are talking about "side effects" in this case, not "manufacturing errors". The SCOTUS ruling didn't address somebody suing somebody because they made a crappy product.

But if a stupid website writes a stupid article there will be people who are confused by it.

Yep...d-usa has the right of this...

In other words, if the generic makers distributed drugs that were contaminated by their own manufacturing process... then the generic makers are liable. However, if they're made EXACTLY as the brand and labeled EXACTLY as the same way as the brand, then the original patent holder would be liable.

 sebster wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Not to mention most herb lore and traditional medicine in Europe got stamped out during the Middle Ages under the auspices of the Catholic church.

Oh the burning times!

Dude, the sources your rely on for history are crazies, and as a result you've ended up posting things in this thread which are crazy.

I know you read selectively but I've been massively taking the piss this entire thread. You are tracking that right? That said, there is an argument that the European witch hunts, which mostly occurred under the Catholic Church through the 15th to 18th century were incredibly gender biased with traditional women's roles and tasks, which included traditional medicine being labeled as "witch craft". This is also right around the rise of so called "scientific" medicine. I put air quotes on that because medicine of the day was not much better then witchcraft considering leeches and stabbings were popular medical treatments. Any way an acquaintance of mine wrote her master's thesis on the concept of the witch hunts as gendercide, I'll see if I can dig a copy up some where if you're interested. When her paper was publicly discussed/critiqued on campus one of the odder counterpoints is that not enough people had died for it to qualify for a "cide" of any kind. The low number is approximately 60,000 deaths last I saw anything, so I suppose it depends on your own goal posts for that?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 sebster wrote:

Yeah, no. Those ideas didn't developed the polio vaccine. And they didn't produce the massive reduction in infant mortality we've seen in the last hundred years. Those things were achieved by the application of the scientific method to modern medicine.

Not to mention the eradication of smallpox.

I used an eye of newt and a wolfsbane poultice.

No smallpox yet, so it must have worked!

So here's the thing. It's a good ruling because generic manufacturers are already set up to be allowed to just copy a drug without testing it, since the testing was already done, so there's no reason for them to be responsible for the actual drug itself unless they've done something different. So in that sense, this is fine with me.

But on the other hand, this ruling creates a weird situation where a drug could eventually be discontinued by the original maker, such that there are ONLY generics. In which case the drug could keep getting made forever and nobody can ever be sued. Ostensibly, that's what the FDA is for, they could step in and halt sale of the drug and investigate, etc etc, but what if they're slow?

So basically, on principle this is fine, but it creates a corner case that we will have to deal with. The good news is that the corner case could be solved by legislation adjusting the FDA's role in the situation.

So the woman in the original case should refile but against the brand name manufacturer for not disclosing the side effect?

That's what it looks like based on my reading. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.

Welp, back to chewing on bark to cure my illnesses, who is in?

 Ahtman wrote:
So the woman in the original case should refile but against the brand name manufacturer for not disclosing the side effect?

Yup...

After reading more into this... it looks like the lawyer wanted a class-action suit. To sue the brand maker AND all of the generic maker... pretty sneaky. But, then again, they're lawyers after all.

This is why I get my news from Dakka. You guys pre-chew it for me.