Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all.

So, i'm currently building up my grey knight army, and I want to add a very minimal allies contingent of blood angels. However, I really don't want to murder fluff by taking grey knight's, with mephiston, 5 assault marines, and a furioso. Because Mephiston wouldn't just turn up virtually solo to a battle.

So, what i'm thinking, is running alternative models, and using my own fluff base, but with the rules of the BA i'm after for my allies. Basically.

Mephiston - Radical psyker inquisitor, using a dark vengeance librarian with the iconography shaved off, and whatever I have in my bit'z box to make him appear more inquisitorial.
5 Assault marines in drop pod - Said inquisitor's private bodyguard/henchmen warband.
Furioso in drop pod - Basically just a grey knight drop pod, who has his weaponry customised by the Grey knight Tech-marines to better suit him. Grey knight's have the resourses to do such thing's after all.

The lot of them would be painted in the grey knight style colour scheme, and I would merely explain what the 3 unit's are when I played games, but for all intents and purposes, they would, in my mind, seem fairly clearly identifiable

However, I would like to hear some opinions (But be nice ), obviously I need to flesh out the fluff more, but these are just some ballpark ideas, feel free to suggest others too

The one thing about count-as ally forces that look similar to the main force is you need to be able to tell them apart. In an ideal world, you should also be able to tell what army they come from.

While subtle, the difference in rules that the various chapters of marines use can make or break games when they come up.

The point of WYSWYG is to avoid confusion. While not a firm rule, it's a good one to keep in mind.

Well, that is a fair thing. I could well have the 7 blood angels models have red marking's on them, and leave red off my true grey knight's, to make them more visually distinct?

You could also base them all with elements that are unique to the allied force.

I had a thought. What If I had the grey knight's, with grey on the rim's of the model bases (Which I usually leave black), and the blood angels with blood red on the rims of the bases, so the blood angels would have a red ring below the model to signify they are part of my blood angels allies?

That makes sense

Not in any way trying to rain on the 'counts as' parade, because I don't see any problem with that at all... but thought it was worth addressing this:

 Evileyes wrote:
... Because Mephiston wouldn't just turn up virtually solo to a battle.

This is a common misconception, and is particularly prevelant against those who dislike special characters in the game in general. But there are any number of reasons for Mephiston to be there with only a small token Blood Angels contingent... He could be on a personal mission, they could be the remaining survivors of a larger task force, they could have been separated from the main BA force, he could be 'on loan' to the Grey Knight force due to personal knowledge of the target area/enemy/objective of that force... there's 4 just straight off the top of my head.

And that's ignoring GW's previously stated view that 40K battles can represent not just small battles, but also small skirmishes within a bigger battle. You can look at the larger battle as being something akin to an Epic or Apocalypse game, with the 40K games you play with the army just representing a snap shot of a small part of that larger battle.


There is absolutely zero problem fluffwise with this army setup.

So Inaniak, how do I justify this in my chapter's fluff (to match what happened in the campaign) : Abadon shows up on a planet he's never been seen on before, with only 8 other Marines, to ambush (and outright kill, unfortunately) a newly-promoted captain as they're assaulting Necrons, and then never being seen again on that world...

It happened in the campaign, so I feel like it happened in my chapter's fluff (rough campaign for them - two captains actually died [not just fell in combat] in a 5-week campaign!). Still trying to think of how it fits.

How to justify a handful of Chaos space marines showing up out of nowhere, killing some dudes, and then disappearing?

It's Chaos. That is the justification. Leave it to the Imperials to grasp at straws and try to find a reason for the attack.

Bharring wrote:
So Inaniak, how do I justify this in my chapter's fluff (to match what happened in the campaign) : Abadon shows up on a planet he's never been seen on before, with only 8 other Marines, to ambush (and outright kill, unfortunately) a newly-promoted captain as they're assaulting Necrons, and then never being seen again on that world...

It happened in the campaign, so I feel like it happened in my chapter's fluff (rough campaign for them - two captains actually died [not just fell in combat] in a 5-week campaign!). Still trying to think of how it fits.

GW tells us to forge our own narrative. There's no reason your campaign has to take place in 999.M41. Perhaps it's a planet Abaddon will fight on in the future.

Bharring wrote:
So Inaniak, how do I justify this in my chapter's fluff (to match what happened in the campaign) : Abadon shows up on a planet he's never been seen on before, with only 8 other Marines, to ambush (and outright kill, unfortunately) a newly-promoted captain as they're assaulting Necrons, and then never being seen again on that world....

The easy answer is the same one you use when two armies with the same characters wind up facing each other... One of them (or in this case, Abaddon) is an imposter.

Although it's also worth considering that the fluff doesn't actually cover ever engagement that Abaddon has taken part in during the 10000 years since the Heresy, nor does it cover anything that happens after the 'current' time period.

I can think of a couple more reasons, too - said Captain might be newly-promoted, but that typically means centuries (or at least decades) of service in the Chapter already... plenty of time to irritate your local Black Legion Warlord. Maybe this guy shot down a bunch of Abaddon's men and escaped his clutches, and so Abaddon seeks out personal revenge - but in small enough numbers to not alert enemy forces to his presence.

Or, maybe the Eldar did it. Said Marine Captain would have beaten the Necrons but then gone on to wage war against the Eldar and kill thousands of them. The Farseers foresee this, see Abaddon's in the area for some other reason, and manipulate him with some lost intel that this Marine force is holding a powerful artifact he wants. He attacks (again, under the cover of arriving in a small enough force to not get noticed) and just so happens to kill the Captain who got in his way. No Captain, no Eldar casualties. Just as planned.

It just needs a little imagination. Don't get stuck in the rut of "that would never happen".

 Evileyes wrote:
I had a thought. What If I had the grey knight's, with grey on the rim's of the model bases (Which I usually leave black), and the blood angels with blood red on the rims of the bases, so the blood angels would have a red ring below the model to signify they are part of my blood angels allies?

I would have no problems playing an army where someone used this technique to distinguish things. It gets the point across, and doesn't impact your paint job/fluff.

If you are going to field a non-WYSWYG army, try to keep the changes simple, consistent, and easy to remember. "All red bases are Blood Angels" or "All flamers are really meltaguns" are easy to keep track of. Once I have to memorize different sets of rules and counts-as for each of your units, and track them for the game, I start to have less fun. Things start bogging down into "What was that again?" and "Who's that guy?" and less actual playing. But if you can summarize all your changes in three or less sweeping statements, I can keep track of that.

I've wanted to do counts-as Blood Angels (Tycho with Death Company) as Ork hunter veteran allies for my Crimson Fists. Go for it. Allies are one of the greatest opportunities for cool conversions and counts-as, so as long as it's clear what's what, you're good.

I like the idea, please keep us updated as it progress.

 Evileyes wrote:
So, i'm currently building up my grey knight army, and I want to add a very minimal allies contingent of blood angels. However, I really don't want to murder fluff by taking grey knight's, with mephiston, 5 assault marines, and a furioso. Because Mephiston wouldn't just turn up virtually solo to a battle.

Also field Driago who wouldn't show up for a small battle barely invested in by the Grey Knights. That way you can destroy as much fluff as Ward did. I see GW hiring you in the near future if you do this.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
So, i'm currently building up my grey knight army, and I want to add a very minimal allies contingent of blood angels. However, I really don't want to murder fluff by taking grey knight's, with mephiston, 5 assault marines, and a furioso. Because Mephiston wouldn't just turn up virtually solo to a battle.

Also field Driago who wouldn't show up for a small battle barely invested in by the Grey Knights. That way you can destroy as much fluff as Ward did. I see GW hiring you in the near future if you do this.

I too, vehemently hate draigo, and do not run him. I run a generic chapter master.

Sounds like a great idea from a fluff perspective. Any excuse for cool conversions and for story works for me. I will echo the other sentiment to make sure that the allied contingent be *easily* differentiated from the main force since there are rules differences for leadership and what not. For me, as I get older, subtle differences like different colored rims on bases are not as easy for me to pick up anymore...:\

I also have to admit to being one of those folks who gets tired of the highpowered special characters showing up ALL the time. I would love to play a game against ultramarines that doesn't include the stupid chapter master every time. I generally don't use too many special characters unless I have to, like needing to take Belial in order to run a Deathwing list. I'd much rather it be like the Ork codex where you can choose a generic type of character to get the force org changes. Just personal preference, really.

Skriker

I generally prefer non-named character's too, tis why I enjoy my grey knight grand master, I can make his fluff easily.

However, when I wanted to take BA allies, to get my hand's on a furioso, I found that the most point efficient way for me to do so, without having to get a full unit and a transport for the troops, or 10 assault marines that wouldn't fit my idea well, was just to take an additional beatstick character, and mephiston fit's that role well. Just meant I had to add fluff for a inquisitor character, which was fine by me, as I love inquisitors fluff-wise

Why the furioso? Because I love those things, it can be on the table turn 1, it has great anti tank the turn it lands with the multi-melta and magna grapple, and is great at killing anything but terminators

Actually, Draigo's stupidly easy to shoehorn into your battle's fluff regardless of size. It's not like he gets to choose where he turns up...

 Super Ready wrote:
Actually, Draigo's stupidly easy to shoehorn into your battle's fluff regardless of size. It's not like he gets to choose where he turns up...

I'd rather have my grandmaster riding a unicorn. It would be more fluffy than Draigo existing, imo

Ive been running alternate Vespids for my Tau games. I don't really like the vespid models, or the price. so I simply used some spare Cadians, gave them some nifty jetpacks and big guns, and now they are specialist mercs who have unique experimental weapons they stole from an imperial facility. Plus i painted them like boba fett. The merc aspect allows for their crummy leadership (also the leader would be the tough as nails to keep them together) and their unique weaponry, which is entirely customized for them and they are not likely to want to share their best kept secrets.

 Evileyes wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Actually, Draigo's stupidly easy to shoehorn into your battle's fluff regardless of size. It's not like he gets to choose where he turns up...

I'd rather have my grandmaster riding a unicorn. It would be more fluffy than Draigo existing, imo

If SW can ride giant puppies into battle, I see no reason why GK can't ride unicorns. This needs to happen.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Actually, Draigo's stupidly easy to shoehorn into your battle's fluff regardless of size. It's not like he gets to choose where he turns up...

I'd rather have my grandmaster riding a unicorn. It would be more fluffy than Draigo existing, imo

If SW can ride giant puppies into battle, I see no reason why GK can't ride unicorns. This needs to happen.

to keep with the grimdark it needs to be the unicorn from cabin in the woods

 Evileyes wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Actually, Draigo's stupidly easy to shoehorn into your battle's fluff regardless of size. It's not like he gets to choose where he turns up...

I'd rather have my grandmaster riding a unicorn. It would be more fluffy than Draigo existing, imo

I kinda of want to see this happen xD a pure grizzled GK riding a unicorn. Stab it with your foce tip! Force horn stab!

...This could be arranged...

Warhammer Fantasy? What army O.O? A true sign of divinity (it is totally not a daemon) that or GK on rending pony MWAHAHAHA

Bretonians get a unicorn. So yeah, if someone really wanted a grey knight mounted on a force-horn unicorn, you can do it xD

 Evileyes wrote:
So yeah, if someone really wanted a grey knight mounted on a force-horn unicorn, you can do it xD

consider yourself sigged...

Make that a Nemesis Force-Horn and we've got ourselves a new cavalry unit for the Grey Knights 6th edition codex.