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 agnosto wrote:
That and he's taking the BRB FAQ out of context.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

While Pinpoint modifies the BS of the firing model, the rules for firing a seeker missile with a ML have a set BS so this part of the FAQ does not apply.

Except for the fact the two mentioned special rules, both are set modifiers.

How about another rule that overrides snap fire? Ok.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Obviously snap fire is not as ironclad as some would like everyone to believe. I agree that Codex>BRB as a specific rule exists that allows the seeker to be fired at BS5. Keep in mind here that the model is not firing the weapon as the seeker is fired in addition to any other weapons but instead the expenditure of the markerlight is actually the activating factor as the only BS used is the one provided for in the rules, not the model's profile.

Yes, if a model is forced to Snap Shot and the attack used hits automatically it still hits. However, there is this all encompassing question:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

which covers attacks that auto-hit.

Only snap shots can hit Zooming flyers. Snap Shots are by definition resolved at BS1.

Under the new codex Tau Markerlights can modify the BS for Snap Shots, but it's at a rate of +1 per markerlight.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Only snap shots can hit Zooming flyers. Snap Shots are by definition resolved at BS1.

Under the new codex Tau Markerlights can modify the BS for Snap Shots, but it's at a rate of +1 per markerlight.

There are other special rules that override the snap shot BS1 though:

Markerlights
skyfire!
seeker missiles

The codex overrides the BRB. If a model uses its BS to shoot something at snapfire, then it is resolved at BS1

If a codex says that the shot is resolved at BS 'X' and the BRB says a shot is resolved at BS 'Y', BS 'X' is used because the codex overrides the BRB.

This is due to both of them saying that they "resolved at BS". This is why a seeker missile "dumb" fired does not "resolve" at BS 5, but use the model's BS. Thus the shot would be RESOLVED at BS1 due to snapfire.

But since a "smart" seeker missile is RESOLVED at BS5, and the BRB says it is RESOLVED at BS1, the Codex's RESOLVED at BS5 overrides the BRB's RESOLVED at BS1.

It is about the wording. Well, that and BRB page 6 saying that the Codex will always override the BRB....

You mean page 7.

Codex does not overrule BRB unless there is a clear conflict and an explicit statement that it does. Specific overrules general, and Advanced overrules Basic.

 Happyjew wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
That and he's taking the BRB FAQ out of context.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

While Pinpoint modifies the BS of the firing model, the rules for firing a seeker missile with a ML have a set BS so this part of the FAQ does not apply.

Except for the fact the two mentioned special rules, both are set modifiers.

I see we're at opposite ends of how this can be interpreted. You are viewing the markerlight as a modifier, and it is for the majority of its usages; however, the rule when using a markerlight with seeker missiles is very specific in that it is not giving a bonus to BS but telling you exactly the BS to use with the seeker missile.

Lets' take it apart so that we can at least walk away from the discussion with the agreement to disagree.

For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:

Note that the rule states "unit" not "model".

- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's
other weapons.

I lumped these together since they're not being discussed.

- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.

The key here for me is "is resolved at" not "fired as if the model had a" or some other potential wording. To me this word usage makes the rule quite clear and definitive but as usual it's open to interpretation because, as we all know, GW rules are often full of holes. The point here being that there exceptions to snap-fire and why wouldn't a shiny new codex benefit from one?

- Has the Ignores Cover special rule.
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn.

Fluff isn't necessarily an indicator of what a rule is but it does often provide us with the RAI side of things. Page 66 of the codex under "Seeker Missile" says,

Seeker missiles are one-shot weapons usually guided to their targets by markerlights, though they can be fired independently as well.

which clearly indicates two firing modes, direct fire by the equipped model and fire by the ML.

This'll never be a problem, either way, for me because I never play in tournaments and the people that I play against are more than willing to accept my interpretation, discuss it or just dice off when something like this comes up; we've all been playing 40k for decades and have become used to GW's lax rule writing.

In any event, that's about as clear as I can think to make my case and I understand where you are coming from so if we disagree, the world won't end, we can shake electronic hands and walk away with a smile.

Cheers.

 agnosto wrote:
This'll never be a problem, either way, for me because I never play in tournaments and the people that I play against are more than willing to accept my interpretation, discuss it or just dice off when something like this comes up; we've all been playing 40k for decades and have become used to GW's lax rule writing.

In any event, that's about as clear as I can think to make my case and I understand where you are coming from so if we disagree, the world won't end, we can shake electronic hands and walk away with a smile.

Cheers.

And if we were to ever play against one another, I'd allow it. Personally I think that a 1 in 36 chance to hit something is bogus, when for everybody else it is a 1 in 6 chance. But, on this forum I take a firm RAW stance (except when noted otherwise), even when RAW is silly.

 Lotus wrote:
It's a 2+ to hit the flyer using a missile with a markerlight token to launch it.

They had this same discussion back in the last codex and it was FAQ-d to be 2+. Both rules for snap shots and launching the markerlight tokens ignore the BS for the firer and are "resolved at BS *." You can use whatever justification you want, but last time this issue came up GW FAQ-D it to be a 2+ to hit.

I recall reading the opposite in the previous FAQ.

 davou wrote:

 Lotus wrote:
It's a 2+ to hit the flyer using a missile with a markerlight token to launch it.

They had this same discussion back in the last codex and it was FAQ-d to be 2+. Both rules for snap shots and launching the markerlight tokens ignore the BS for the firer and are "resolved at BS *." You can use whatever justification you want, but last time this issue came up GW FAQ-D it to be a 2+ to hit.

I recall reading the opposite in the previous FAQ.

The problem with trying to compare and old FAQ with a new codex, is that many time they reverse their original ruling. Both with markerlights and snapshots, and with crisis suits and multiple of the same weapon.

Once a new codex is released, the old FAQ is basically worthless.

Hmmm so what it looks like to me is:

Tau Codex says: Resolved at BS 5 in the Markerlight rules.

BRB says: Resolved at BS 1, snapshot rules.

It's not entirely clear to me which takes precedence, but I'd probably go with Codex trumps BRB.

Of course, it will never matter in my games anyway as I'll have failed the grounding test from the Markerlight by then anyway..

Baktru wrote:
Hmmm so what it looks like to me is:

Tau Codex says: Resolved at BS 5 in the Markerlight rules.

BRB says: Resolved at BS 1, snapshot rules unless otherwise speciied.

It's not entirely clear to me which takes precedence, but I'd probably go with Codex trumps BRB.

Of course, it will never matter in my games anyway as I'll have failed the grounding test from the Markerlight by then anyway..

Fixed that for you. If we were going off the set modifier from codex vs set modifier from BRB, codex wins, then a signum could overwrite Snap Shots.

Damn it Happy, you are making this much more confusing than it has to be.

It is word association:

There is "gets to use/ has / uses/ ect BS'X' " and there is "resolves at BS'x' "

If a model has BS 3 and the rules state that he resolves his shooting at BS 1, then he needs 6's to hit when shooting.

If a model has a Signum (page 100 of Codex Space Marine), "One model in his [model with the Signum] squad is Ballistic Skill 5 for the remainder of the Shooting Phase." This model is now BS5
---- If a model has BS 5 and the rules state that he resolves his shooting at BS 1, then he needs 6's to hit when shooting.

Now we get to Seeker Missiles.

If the seeker missile is fired using a markerlight to guide it, then the Ballistic skill is RESOLVED at BS 5! (Page 68 of Codex TAU Empire).

If two rules state the opposing information, the specific rule (IE Codex) is used instead of the Basic Rule (IE BRB). (BRB page 8).

Since the seeker missile RESOLVES at BS 5 and the BRB states that a snap fire RESOLVES at BS1, the CODEX rules overrides the BRB rules due to BOTH of them stating that the shot is RESOLVED at BS 'X'.

I understand you are trying to help HappyJew, but you are making things worse for people reading this due to the information being there, and you are throwing rules around that do not make a difference in this dilemma (like the Signum, for it is NOT a "resolves at BS 'X' rule).

The the OP, here is the information you need and the pages to prove it to another player. Please use them and make sure that an opponent does not do the wrong thing. Many people play with rules that are not right and they play with them so much that they think it is right and in the rule book. Make sure to show people why they are wrong so that they can in-turn do the same. I have played wrong many times before and have always been grateful when someone corrects me of doing the wrong thing: I hate cheating, and would hate others to not tell me that I am cheating when I do not realize that I am.

jazzpaintball, please answer me this:

If you resolve the seeker missile at BS5, did you resolve the shot as a snap shot against the flyer?

 Happyjew wrote:
jazzpaintball, please answer me this:

If you resolve the seeker missile at BS5, did you resolve the shot as a snap shot against the flyer?

Yes.

Here is the progression of the shot (using possible models, but not limited to them):

1) You shoot a squad of 6 pathfinders with markerlights at a Vendetta. They have a BS of 3. Due to the Vendetta flying, the shot is a "snap shot" and the unit shots are resolved at BS 1.

2) You get a 1,3,3,4,5,and 6 for your rolls. Due to the "resolve at BS 1" only 1 markerlight hits instead of three.

3) You put 1 Markerlight token on the Vendetta.

4) A Piranha has 2 seeker missiles and a Fusion gun. You want to shoot at the Vendetta, but the fusion is too far away. Instead, you use the Markerlight token on the Vendetta to "smart" fire your seeker missile at it.

5) You roll to see if the Seeker Missile hits. You roll a 4.
---- The BS of the Piranha is 3. You would hit, but you shot it against a flyer. The BS is Resolved at BS 1. The seeker Missile missed.....

BUT WAIT!

You used a markerlight token to give the seeker missile a different set of abilities: PAGE 68 OF THE TAU EMPIRE CODEX.

The Piranha is BS 3. You shoot the seeker missile at a flyer, it is resolved at BS 1. The new set of abilities on the seeker missile says it is "resolved at BS 5".

The Codex's "resolved at BS 5" overrides the BRB's "resolved at BS 1".

The seeker missile hits on a 2+ roll, meaning that the 4 you rolled hits the flyer.

6) Proceed to find out if the flyer wishes to Evade (they should not due to the seeker missile fired using a markerlight will not allow a cover save)

7) Proceed to find out what, if anything, the seeker missile does to the Vendetta.


You see, I resolved both the BS 1 of the snap fire as well as the BS 5 of the seeker missile while fired using a markerlight.
Since both the Codex and the BRB rules state to RESOLVE the shooting at different Ballistic Skills, the Codex's rule overrides the BRB rule (BRB page 8)

I keep putting page numbers up for a reason. Look at the rules! I resolve both shots, but the Codex's resolve overrides the BRB's resolve (BRB page 8).

--- I keep writing this stuff over and over and over again.....

Please explain how you resolved a Snap Shot at a BS other than 1 (as the only way to do that is with a psychic power).

 Happyjew wrote:
Please explain how you resolved a Snap Shot at a BS other than 1 (as the only way to do that is with a psychic power).

Or Markerlight tokens...

 Miri wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Please explain how you resolved a Snap Shot at a BS other than 1 (as the only way to do that is with a psychic power).

Or Markerlight tokens...

I forgot Markerlights could be used to increase BS. However, that has nothing to do with my question.

 Happyjew wrote:
Please explain how you resolved a Snap Shot at a BS other than 1 (as the only way to do that is with a psychic power).

Simple answer:

BS 4 becomes BS 1 when snap firing due to the BRB stating that Snap Shots are Resolved at BS 1.

Seeker missiles:

On page 68 of the Tau Codex, when using a markerlight token to fire a seeker missile, the shot is resolved at BS 5.



A broadside has a seeker missile that fires it at a flyer:

The suit uses a makerlight token that was on the flyer to fire said seeker missile.

BS 3 of the suit becomes a BS 1 due to snap fire (BRB rule).
BS 1 becomes a BS 5 due to the "smart fired" seeker missile rule.

Once again: Both the Codex and the BRB has a RESOLVES AT BS'X' rule.
On page 8 of the Big Rule Book, it states that specific rules override basic rules.

A Codex's rules are specific rules. The BRB's rules are Basic rules with definitions of Specific rules.

The SPECIFIC RULE of the Codex's "RESOLVES AT BS 5" ***OVERRIDES*** the BASIC RULE of the BRB's "RESOLVES AT BS 1."




--- I am really starting to think that you are no longer being helpful, but rather "trolling" this thread. I dont know you and respect how many posts you have within this forum, so I am not going to call you out on it, But I am definitely having suspicions now....

Per the BRB, Snap Shots are always resolved at BS1, correct?
Per the Tau codex, Seeker Missiles fired via Markerlight are resolved at BS5.
I think we can agree on this.

You're claiming that because there is a conflict, that the codex wins out, except the only time htere is a conflict is when forced to fire snap shots, in which case the more advanced rule (Snap Shots, as nothing can modify that BS) wins out.

However, as neither of us will budge (without a FAQ), and I've already stated HIWPI, all I can say is that this has come up multiple times and does not get resolved (pun intended).

 Happyjew wrote:


You're claiming that because there is a conflict, that the codex wins out, except the only time htere is a conflict is when forced to fire snap shots, in which case the more advanced rule (Snap Shots, as nothing can modify that BS) wins out.

Nothing can modify the BS of a snap shot? If this BRB rule is more specific than the Codex's rules, then how can the BS 1 be increased with markerlight tokens?

(Tau Codex, page 68: Pinpoint)

"Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch."

The codex says specifically that the BS of a Snap Shot can be increased. This is due to the Codex overriding the Snap Shot rule once in place.

BS 3 becomes BS 1 due to snap shot. Three Markerlight tokens can increase that BS 1 to a BS 4.

If you can understand this, why do you fight this:

Suit with seeker missile has BS 3 and it becomes BS 1 due to Snap Shot. One markerlight token can make the seeker missile shoot at BS 5.



Is that train of thought too far of a stretch? Or do you think that the Pinpoint rule is already 'Null and void' due to the BRB stating something else?

It all seems a lot of walking around in circles here.

If you land a markerlight hit on a flyer and use this to fire a Seeker Missile. You DON'T modify the the models BS that the Seeker has been fired from. The Markerlight is now controlling that seeker missile not the model it was equipped on.

Meaning that you are not "modifying" any BS. that is otherwise not allowed when firing at a flyer. But You are instead using a Special Rule in the Tau Codex. That allows a seeker missile to be guided to its target by use of a marker light. And these hits are resolved at BS5. The Markerlight has already Snap fired.

And because this is a special rule in the Tau Codex. It Over writes the BRB Skyfire rules, that say that all hits must be made at BS1, unless the skyfire rule is being used. As also stated on Page 6 of the BRB.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


You're claiming that because there is a conflict, that the codex wins out, except the only time htere is a conflict is when forced to fire snap shots, in which case the more advanced rule (Snap Shots, as nothing can modify that BS) wins out.

Nothing can modify the BS of a snap shot? If this BRB rule is more specific than the Codex's rules, then how can the BS 1 be increased with markerlight tokens?

(Tau Codex, page 68: Pinpoint)

"Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch."

When you have a rule that says no matter what "X", and then you have a rule that says even when dealing with the rule that says "no matter what "X"", "Y", then the more advanced rule wins. It is the same situation as SA and ATSKNF - SA says "No matter what the unit is gone." ATSKNF says "Nope." In that case, ATSKNF wins. Or, if we want to piss off the mods, we could argue about EL (codex specific rule) and SA (BRB rule), but some people have already had a dakka-free weekend from that discussion, and we don't need that argument here.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


You're claiming that because there is a conflict, that the codex wins out, except the only time htere is a conflict is when forced to fire snap shots, in which case the more advanced rule (Snap Shots, as nothing can modify that BS) wins out.

Nothing can modify the BS of a snap shot? If this BRB rule is more specific than the Codex's rules, then how can the BS 1 be increased with markerlight tokens?

(Tau Codex, page 68: Pinpoint)

"Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch."

The codex says specifically that the BS of a Snap Shot can be increased. This is due to the Codex overriding the Snap Shot rule once in place.

It can be increased with Pinpoint due to that specific exception.
Does the seeker missile rule include that exception?

rigeld2 wrote:

It can be increased with Pinpoint due to that specific exception.
Does the seeker missile rule include that exception?

The seeker missile rule states when firing a seeker missile with the guidance of a markerlight token:

(tau codex, Page 68)

"A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons.
- IS RESOLVED AT BALLISTIC SKILL 5."

The seeker rule specifies that a seeker missile fired in this way resolves at BS 5.
A snap shot specifies that it resolves at BS 1.

I am arguing that the Codex overrides the BRB. Therefor the "resolves at BS 5" overrides the "resolves at BS 1."

Is my line of thinking so far in left field that it is considered foul?

My Marines have BS4. Their shots are resolved at BS4.
And yet, when they snap shoot, they must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

Your seeker missile has BS5. The missile's shot is resolved at BS5. This is a bonus over the usual BS of the unit carrying the missile.
And yet, when it snap shoots, it must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

I fail to see any conflict between codex and BRB. The missile acts in the exact same manner as any other shooting.

jazzpaintball wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It can be increased with Pinpoint due to that specific exception.
Does the seeker missile rule include that exception?

The seeker missile rule states when firing a seeker missile with the guidance of a markerlight token:

(tau codex, Page 68)

"A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons.
- IS RESOLVED AT BALLISTIC SKILL 5."

The seeker rule specifies that a seeker missile fired in this way resolves at BS 5.
A snap shot specifies that it resolves at BS 1.

I am arguing that the Codex overrides the BRB. Therefor the "resolves at BS 5" overrides the "resolves at BS 1."

Is my line of thinking so far in left field that it is considered foul?

So there's no specific exception for snapshots? Gee, it's like there's no conflict then.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
My Marines have BS4. Their shots are resolved at BS4.
And yet, when they snap shoot, they must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

Your seeker missile has BS5. The missile's shot is resolved at BS5. This is a bonus over the usual BS of the unit carrying the missile.
And yet, when it snap shoots, it must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

I fail to see any conflict between codex and BRB. The missile acts in the exact same manner as any other shooting.

Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

i think alot of people are forgetting here that you still need a 6 on the markerlight to even shoot the seeker and i think RAI is that they shoot at BS5 (seekers that is) otherwise its a bit lame having a seekermissile that isnt on a skyray 6+ then 6+ when whatever seems a bit harsh to me.

 kezwick wrote:
i think alot of people are forgetting here that you still need a 6 on the markerlight to even shoot the seeker and i think RAI is that they shoot at BS5 (seekers that is) otherwise its a bit lame having a seekermissile that isnt on a skyray 6+ then 6+ when whatever seems a bit harsh to me.

People are not forgetting it. People are arguing that RAW you need a 6 followed by a 6. I'm fairly certain most people (in a friendly game at least) would allow their opponent to use the BS5.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
My Marines have BS4. Their shots are resolved at BS4.
And yet, when they snap shoot, they must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

Your seeker missile has BS5. The missile's shot is resolved at BS5. This is a bonus over the usual BS of the unit carrying the missile.
And yet, when it snap shoots, it must instead resolve shooting at BS1.

I fail to see any conflict between codex and BRB. The missile acts in the exact same manner as any other shooting.

Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

Marines don't need a "special Markerlight rule" in order to choose a target and shoot.
Snap Shooting is a strange thing, and it has already been set outside the normal parameters of Multiple Modifiers. Markerlights add one to OW. Snap Shooting sets BS to 1, and normally a set modifier comes at the end of the order of operations, thus negating any +/- bonuses. However, the Markerlight allows you to +1 AFTER the set modifier; this is mentioned explicitly in the rule, since it breaks the normal rules of the game, the normal rule being, "Snap is BS1, regardless of any other additive, multiplicative, or set modifiers."
Seeker missiles do not have an explicit exception to break the rules of the game, unlike the other use of Markerlights which does have the permission.

Here's a related question: if the model firing the Seeker missile has gone to ground/is pinned/is shaken, are the Seeker missiles resolved as Snap Shots?
EDIT: I would say yes.

It seems like the one and only reason people cant get past this is the wording on snap shots ALWAYS resolving at bs 1.

fact of it is they are both set modifiers with snap saying 1 and seekers fired with a marker token at 5. so normally whoever turn it is gets to resolve the order.


Edit: Actually re reading the rules. and FAQ where are you guys getting that a snap must ALWAYS resolve at bs1? edit2: if concerning the FAQ stating if anything can modify the BS1 of snap shots than even marker lights are out which would conflict.