Marker lights and Flyers

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**cerbrus2**

Well I doubt we will get a reply, But I actually emailed GW's so called GamerFAQ email address. to see if they will add it onto the FAQ to give a Yes or No answer.

**Happyjew**

And based on precedent, they would vote 6 to hit. Which makes Seeker Missile via Markerlight the worst anti-flyer weapon in the game.

**thejughead**

davou wrote:
thejughead wrote:
"its ballistic skill (and in this case, the BS that the shot is 'resolved' at) make no matter, because it must snap-fire ALL of its shots if it is pinned/shaken/shooting at a flyer. "

The models BS is not used to resolve the Seeker missile. This is fact and a rule in the Tau Codex.

A stunned model does not care whether its using its, the seekers, or jesus's BS, because all shots coming from it must be fired as snap shots. But honestly, I'm done with this thread. I'd love for seeker missiles to have all the magic rules that some people here want for them, but that's not how it's worded, or how the game should be played unless we want massive lopsided brokenness.

Its all circles in here now, can we please get a lock?

I'm sorry we have a disagreement, but that is what this thread is for. I will grant you that your POV has merit, but dismissing mine and saying we are advocates for cheese is wrong.

A stunned model has a BS of 1, but the Seeker "is resolved at BS5". It clearly says that statement in the book without any exceptions stated.

**rigeld2**

thejughead wrote:
A stunned model has a BS of 1, but the Seeker "is resolved at BS5". It clearly says that statement in the book without any exceptions stated.

And it being resolved at BS5 is irrelevant if you're force to use BS1 for something, like, I don't know... Snap Shots which state that they cannot be modified.

Why are you modifying a Snap Shot BS without permission to?

**davou**

cerbrus2 wrote:
Well I doubt we will get a reply, But I actually emailed GW's so called GamerFAQ email address. to see if they will add it onto the FAQ to give a Yes or No answer.

I wrote to them last week actually with something you may find interesting (their reply I mean)

Hey there,

Thanks for writing in to us! We handle all rules questions through our Customer Services department. If you give us a call at 1-800-394-4263 we’ll be able to answer any questions you have. Unfortunately, we don’t answer rules questions via e-mail any more. We find it’s way quicker to answer them over the phone and we can answer any follow up questions that may come up.

Thanks!

Games Workshop

North America Customer Services

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

Games Workshop
Customer Service
6211 East Holmes Road
Memphis, TN 38141

Games Workshop Customer Service is open:
Monday through Friday 9:30 AM to 6:00 PM CST

Contact info:
1-800-394-4263
custserv@gwplc.com

Or visit us online at:
www.games-workshop.com

**Elric Greywolf**

Happyjew wrote:
And based on precedent, they would vote 6 to hit. Which makes Seeker Missile via Markerlight the worst anti-flyer weapon in the game.

Except if they're on the Tau flyer, which could use its Networked ML to fire Seekers at BS5 with Skyfire, yes?

**Happyjew**

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
And based on precedent, they would vote 6 to hit. Which makes Seeker Missile via Markerlight the worst anti-flyer weapon in the game.

Except if they're on the Tau flyer, which could use its Networked ML to fire Seekers at BS5 with Skyfire, yes?

Correct, because in that situation, the Seeker Missiles have the Skyfire special rule.

**thejughead**

rigeld2 wrote:
thejughead wrote:
A stunned model has a BS of 1, but the Seeker "is resolved at BS5". It clearly says that statement in the book without any exceptions stated.

And it being resolved at BS5 is irrelevant if you're force to use BS1 for something, like, I don't know... Snap Shots which state that they cannot be modified.

Why are you modifying a Snap Shot BS without permission to?

You have to agree that the reason for this discussion is that the codex rule for seekers conflicts with the BRB snapshop rule. It is expected that codex rules break regular game mechanics, hence why everyone says "codex > brb".

In my opinion, the seeker rule intentionally breaks the snap shot mechanic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The permission is granted in the Tau codex, "resolve at BS5".

**Tyr Grimtooth**

Like I said before, stupid wording for both the rules and subsequent FAQ. However I look at it this way;

Unless you have Skyfire, shots at zooming flyers and swooping fmc are resolved as Snap Shots at BS1. Now shots from markerlit seeker missiles are resolved at bs5, however nothing in the rule says that markerlit snap shots are resolved at bs5.

Due to the stupid wording of the rule and faq, the markerlit seeker missile is still making a snap shot because it is still a shot resolved against a flyer or swooping mc. The markerlight was a snap shot and the subsequent markerlit seeker missile is still a snap shot. No conflict arises for the codex to take precedence.

**rigeld2**

thejughead wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
thejughead wrote:
A stunned model has a BS of 1, but the Seeker "is resolved at BS5". It clearly says that statement in the book without any exceptions stated.

And it being resolved at BS5 is irrelevant if you're force to use BS1 for something, like, I don't know... Snap Shots which state that they cannot be modified.

Why are you modifying a Snap Shot BS without permission to?

You have to agree that the reason for this discussion is that the codex rule for seekers conflicts with the BRB snapshop rule. It is expected that codex rules break regular game mechanics, hence why everyone says "codex > brb".

No, I don't have to agree to that because its not true.
There's no conflict - the Pinpoint rule creates a conflict because Snap gaks cannot ever be modified, but Pinpoint says it can modify them. Codex wins. There's no similar issue in the Seeker rules.

In my opinion, the seeker rule intentionally breaks the snap shot mechanic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The permission is granted in the Tau codex, "resolve at BS5".

And please explain - how does that refer to Snap Shots at all?
Why are you modifying a Snap Shot without permission to do so?

**nosferatu1001**

As above.

You are missing the wording "even for snapshots", or ANYTHING where it *directly* conflicts with the snapshots rules

The amazing part is that you refer to the Pinpoint rule, which *specifies* it can alter snapshots, yet fail to see that this is missing for Seekers.

**thejughead**

I never mentioned the pinpoint rules in my post.

IMO, you treat the Seeker rule as a USR for the seeker weapon. It does not modify the BS of the model firing it all other weapons of the model fire at BS1.

If it ever comes up in a tournament I hope they have a set of rulings before hand.

The only time this rule ever comes into play for me is if I move the Skyray 12".

@Rigeld2, you can think what you want, but the fact is the rules are conflicting and there are 5 pages worth of discussion in this thread that backs that up.

**davou**

To be fair, 90% of those 5 pages are word for word rules quotes refuting any conflict and 10% repeating the same arguments that have already been refuted.

**thejughead**

There is enough people out there that feel your ruling and arguments on the rule is incorrect. There does not have to be a personal beat down for anyone who disagrees.

If a TO decides one way or another I will abide with it.

As you said Davou there's enough circling with the arguments to close this thread. The issue to me looks undecided until an FAQ is released. I went through this with the wording of the Crisis Weapon load outs, although the pages in the thread were overflowing.

**nosferatu1001**

Jughead - no, there is no conflict

For there to be a conflict the BRB has to say "Do Y", with the codex (or more advanced BRB rule) saying "rather than Do Y, Do Z instead"

So, instead of "resolve at BS5", we would need "resolve at BS5, ignoring the snapshot restriction" (or similar)

Absent that qualifying line there is no conflict.

5 pages of debate doesnt imply that the debate is rational, or the answer unclear.

**thejughead**

@nos, That statement is your opinion. Also, there is no way that writing rules in that fashion is tenable. There are too many loopholes in writing a rule in that fashion. My belief is that codex trumps BRB in any case. Codex rules do not need explicit definition because the are designed to break/bend the BRB. "Resolve at BS5", means there are no restrictions to resolving this. There are restrictions on how you can get the marker light there.

**hyv3mynd**

Only snap shots can hit fliers.

The BS of snap shots can never be modified (unless explicitly permitted).

Firing a seeker at BS 5 is not a snap shot and does not have explicit permission to modify a snap shot.

Firing a seeker at BS1 and modifying it with pinpoint has explicit permission.

Therefore a seeker firing at bs5 cannot hit a flyer.

That's about as RAW as it gets IMO.

**HawaiiMatt**

thejughead wrote:
@nos, That statement is your opinion.

Correct.
It's his opinion.
It's a logical opinion.

If you pull the conflict argument and don't use logic it gets ugly.
My codex shows that BS3 models hit on a 4+.
Rule book says that snapfire is only on a 6, but since my codex has a 4+ in it, I'm going to claim conflict and completely ignore the entirety of the hard to hit rules.

-Matt

**thejughead**

@HawaiiMatt, the model stats do not change rules and how they are played. The special rules in the Codex do. The comparison between the two Codex stat vs. Brb Stat and Codex Rule vs. BRB Rule.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is possible to have two justifiable logical explanations that are completely on opposite ends of the spectrum.

**nosferatu1001**

thejughead wrote:
@nos, That statement is your opinion. Also, there is no way that writing rules in that fashion is tenable. There are too many loopholes in writing a rule in that fashion. My belief is that codex trumps BRB in any case. Codex rules do not need explicit definition because the are designed to break/bend the BRB. "Resolve at BS5", means there are no restrictions to resolving this. There are restrictions on how you can get the marker light there.

So a signum armed model also resolves at BS5 - after all, it is a codex special rule?

Oops, no, we're told that you cannot do that. So what makes you think you can do that in this case?

Rules, page and para, which says that "resolves at BS5" overrides the FAQ stating you resolve at BS1.

**rigeld2**

thejughead wrote:
@HawaiiMatt, the model stats do not change rules and how they are played. The special rules in the Codex do. The comparison between the two Codex stat vs. Brb Stat and Codex Rule vs. BRB Rule.

Alpha Warrior (Tyranid Codex) says that a unit of normal Warriors uses the BS and WS of the Tyranid Prime if he's joined to the unit.
This makes the BS of the Warriors 4.
According to you, since the Codex rule is trumping the BRB, a unit of Warriors can fire Snap Shots at BS4 (while the Prime fires at BS1).

It is possible to have two justifiable logical explanations that are completely on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Not really - one of them must be false. In this situation, there is rules support for one and opinion support for the other.

**thejughead**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
thejughead wrote:
@nos, That statement is your opinion. Also, there is no way that writing rules in that fashion is tenable. There are too many loopholes in writing a rule in that fashion. My belief is that codex trumps BRB in any case. Codex rules do not need explicit definition because the are designed to break/bend the BRB. "Resolve at BS5", means there are no restrictions to resolving this. There are restrictions on how you can get the marker light there.

So a signum armed model also resolves at BS5 - after all, it is a codex special rule?

Oops, no, we're told that you cannot do that. So what makes you think you can do that in this case?

Rules, page and para, which says that "resolves at BS5" overrides the FAQ stating you resolve at BS1.

Nos, There is no FAQ referring to Seeker missiles. The FAQ refers to the signum, I believe.

**rigeld2**

thejughead wrote:
Nos, There is no FAQ referring to Seeker missiles. The FAQ refers to the signum, I believe.

No, but there *is* an FAQ saying that you cannot ever modify a Snap Shot. Which is what you're trying to do without permission.

**thejughead**

rigeld2, if the Tyranid Prime is part of the unit then he is firing as well. If his BS has been reduced to 1 then the Warriors are BS1 as well.

**rigeld2**

thejughead wrote:
rigeld2, if the Tyranid Prime is part of the unit then he is firing as well. If his BS has been reduced to 1 then the Warriors are BS1 as well.

Not if he opts not to fire.

**thejughead**

rigeld2, that is the point of contention the Seeker rules does not modify the To Hit of the model.

**rigeld2**

thejughead wrote:
rigeld2, that is the point of contention the Seeker rules does not modify the To Hit of the model.

Except they do.

You're told that you must Snap Shot to hit a flier (Hard to Hit FAQ).
The Broadside spends a markerlight to fire a Seeker.
That Broadside attempts to fire the Seeker at BS5, but must Snap Shoot.
Snap Shot rules set your BS to 1. You attempt to modify that to BS5 (set modifier from spending the marker light) but have no permission to.

**thejughead**

I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

**davou**

thejughead wrote:
rigeld2, if the Tyranid Prime is part of the unit then he is firing as well. If his BS has been reduced to 1 then the Warriors are BS1 as well.

Actually, his bs is never changed, you just modify the required hit to present BS1; The actual stat is never altered.

**rigeld2**

thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Irrelevant to the point of my post. I'll correct it though - just for you.
Please address the content of the post, not nitpick things that don't matter.