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 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Exactly, the seeker isnt firing, the model that carries it is, and unless it has skyfire, the hard to hit rule is activated. Nowhere in the seeker missile entry does it say to not activate the hard to hit provision of shooting. In fact, it says to 'resolve the shot' part of resolving a shot, is following all special rules that apply to the shooting phase (including hard to hit).

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Irrelevant to the point of my post. I'll correct it though - just for you.
Please address the content of the post, not nitpick things that don't matter.

I'm not being nit picky. My reasoning is relevant. Snap shot rules affect models/units. The seeker does not fire and does not auto hit, so it is resolved.

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Irrelevant to the point of my post. I'll correct it though - just for you.
Please address the content of the post, not nitpick things that don't matter.

I'm not being nit picky. My reasoning is relevant. Snap shot rules affect models/units. The seeker does not fire and does not auto hit, so it is resolved.

A model fires the seeker missile. This is indisputable.

I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry but the seeker is a weapon not a model. The seeker is not firing.

Irrelevant to the point of my post. I'll correct it though - just for you.
Please address the content of the post, not nitpick things that don't matter.

I'm not being nit picky. My reasoning is relevant. Snap shot rules affect models/units. The seeker does not fire and does not auto hit, so it is resolved.

So you are now changing your argument to say hard to hit doesnt apply, rather than it is overruled?

The FAQ uses signum as an *example* f a special rule that isnt allowed to alter the BS roll needed to-hit. Find permission for you to ignore this FAQ. Page and para.

Nos, I never made any of the references you have inferred. The signum modifies the models to hit. They chose to use different wording for the seeker. It should have separate consideration.

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Then in this case it may not hit the flyer at all, because it is specifically barred from doing so unless the shot is made as a snap shot.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

So you're modifying the BS a Snap Shot sets?

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

How you see it is reaching. 'Resolve at bs5' is in no way an invitation to use a set value, it just means to resolve the shot using bs5, which is then set to 1 by the hard to hit rule once you start the process of actually resolving the shot.

This is the full Seeker Rule:

Seeker: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Markerlight cost: 1 +
For each markerlight counter expended o n this ability,
the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if
it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is
pet-mitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's
other weapons.
- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.
- Has the Ignores Cover special rule.
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can
fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer
can fire each turn.

then after re-reading the Hard to Hit rules, the following has occurred to me:

1. The probable intent of the Seeker rule is that any model hit with a Markerlight then can have a seeker missile fired at it, and no matter what the shot is resolved at BS5.
2. RAW, Hard to Hit applies to the seeker missile shot.
3. This really needs to be FAQ'd, because I do agree with the intent, mainly because that's how the fluff wants it to work, but until then, it doesn't work that way.
4. As for the OP, if the hammerheads fired anything else during that phase, the fact that the missiles were fired could possibly be illegal in the first place. You can't split missile shots and railgun/Ion Cannon shots up at separate targets.

 McNinja wrote:

1. The probable intent of the Seeker rule is that any model hit with a Markerlight then can have a seeker missile fired at it, and no matter what the shot is resolved at BS5.

You quoted the full rule, but can you show me where you get the 'no matter what' from? As far as I can tell, it says to resolve the shot.... It's no stretch to assume they mean normally; which has provisions for shooting at flyers.... all of which have been quoted a dozen times.

if the intention was for it to be able to hit flyers, they would have said "resolve the shot at bs5, it requires no line of sight, and has the ignore cover and skyfire special rules"

Really, if it was meant to bypass hard to hit, the only thing required of the author would have been to add the word skyfire... Do you honestly thing he Vetock sat there going

"yes, let the nerds dance around a dictionary for my amusement!"

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I dont disagree. A model fires the seeker. The models BS is 1. The Seeker is resolved at BS5.

Okay - great.

Model fires the seeker.
The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else. Seeker isn't a modifier, so can't change the BS of the shot.

Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Either you need permission to modify a Snap Shot (which you don't have) or you need permission to ignore Hard to Hit (which you don't have).

Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

Well those are some mental gymnastics that are not supported by the rules at all. The model does not fire the Seeker Missile and then the Seeker Missile rolls to hit and thus uses the Markerlight. A simple question kills your entire argument,

If you are firing a markerlit Seeker Missile at a flyer or swooping fmc, are you or are you not making a Snap Shot? You cannot possibly answer no because you are targetting a flyer or swooping fmc. Your only answer is yes and because it is yes, the BS of that Snap Shot must be resolved at BS 1 because you have absolutely zero permission to modify that BS in the rules for a Seeker Missile that has used a Markerlight token. I don't think it is right, I don't think it will stand up to a future FAQ, but that is currently how the rules are written. One little addenda to the markerlit seeker missile rule of, "including Snap Shots" would fix this issue if that is GW's intent with markerlit seeker missiles, but as it stands a shot a a flyer is and will only be a snap shot in the absence of skyfire or a rule specifically stating different.

 davou wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

1. The probable intent of the Seeker rule is that any model hit with a Markerlight then can have a seeker missile fired at it, and no matter what the shot is resolved at BS5.

You quoted the full rule, but can you show me where you get the 'no matter what' from? As far as I can tell, it says to resolve the shot.... It's no stretch to assume they mean normally; which has provisions for shooting at flyers.... all of which have been quoted a dozen times.

if the intention was for it to be able to hit flyers, they would have said "resolve the shot at bs5, it requires no line of sight, and has the ignore cover and skyfire special rules"

Really, if it was meant to bypass hard to hit, the only thing required of the author would have been to add the word skyfire... Do you honestly thing he Vetock sat there going

"yes, let the nerds dance around a dictionary for my amusement!"

I completely agree. All that was needed was some bit allowing it to bypass Hard to Hit, perhaps its an oversight, or perhaps not. Either way, right now we're stuck with Seekers using Hard to Hit unless you happen to have multiple MLs on a Flyer.

Anyway, I got the "no matter what" from the fluff. Again the probable intent is that if there's a ML on the target, it's being tracked as it screams across the sky, and so the missile locks on to the ML signature and speeds towards it, much like how modern-day laser-target missiles work. Once the target is painted with the laser, it is accurate to within a few feet, no matter if it's a plane or tank or some dude. Although that does bring up the question of how the hell a Pathfinder can keep the ML on a flyer for that long (if the MLs work the same as how ours do). considering how far away and how fast it is going.

I'll propose somthing new since noone else has.


The seeker missle isnt "Fired" at all.

It is "Used", just like a peice of wargear, which is what it is. There are other pieces of wargear you have to activate.

There are no other weapons in game that follow the same rules so there is nothing to fall back on for presedence.

You spend the markerlight token, the missle activates, BS5 test to see if it hits, done.

Snapshot never comes up because even though it is coming from a model, its not a shooting attack from that model.

The model itself is considered to be snap firing at the flier and is at BS1 due to it having to fire at the same target, no argument there.
Also, while it is true that models whom cant snap fire cannot target the flier, this never comes up, seeing as how the model is snap firing with its other weapon systems. The seeker missle itself is not a model so that rule doesnt prevent it from activating.


SO IN CONCLUSION, treat the seeker missle as an activated piece of wargear that costs a markerlight token. Nothing prevents a piece of wargear from activating againgst a flier, and in this game the activation states it is resolved at BS5.

Im leaning towards an intentional leave out -

Skyrays and broadsides are both pelnty capable of giving seekers skyfire, and in desperation, you can just spend some tokens to up the BS one pip at a time.

 davou wrote:
Im leaning towards an intentional leave out -

Skyrays and broadsides are both pelnty capable of giving seekers skyfire, and in desperation, you can just spend some tokens to up the BS one pip at a time.

Well if the argument against BS5 shots is true. which it could be. That will also stop you from raising the BS of a unit without skyfire by using Markerlights.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 davou wrote:
Im leaning towards an intentional leave out -

Skyrays and broadsides are both pelnty capable of giving seekers skyfire, and in desperation, you can just spend some tokens to up the BS one pip at a time.

Well if the argument against BS5 shots is true. which it could be. That will also stop you from raising the BS of a unit without skyfire by using Markerlights.

No, because the pinpoint rule has a provision in its wording that says the shots still count as snap shots despite altered BS, The problem with the seeker entry is that it does not contain such a provision.

Eihnlazer wrote:
SO IN CONCLUSION, treat the seeker missle as an activated piece of wargear that costs a markerlight token. Nothing prevents a piece of wargear from activating againgst a flier, and in this game the activation states it is resolved at BS5.

Except it's explicitly a weapon and can be fired without the markerlight.
And yes - Hard to Hit would *still* require a Snap Shot.

That's not a new proposal, that's the same proposal of 'Ignore the hard to hit rule' as has been made for six pages... Its a weapon, its listed under weapons in the back of the book, and it has no explicit permission to ignore a core rule in 6th - Hard to it.

Also, Very random contribution for your first ever post there dude.

Its only considered a weapon if fired normally without the use of a markerlight token.

If using the markerlight token however its different. It should be treated like activating a one time use wargear and ignore rules that effect a firing model, such as Hard to Hit.




*also, since when does post count mean for anything. I usually hang out on Belloflostsouls. Just passing by and saw this thread.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its only considered a weapon if fired normally without the use of a markerlight token.

If using the markerlight token however its different. It should be treated like activating a one time use wargear and ignore rules that effect a firing model, such as Hard to Hit.




*also, since when does post count mean for anything. I usually hang out on Belloflostsouls. Just passing by and saw this thread.

Unfortunately a Common sense explanations never works here. As in Marker light guides the seeker. And is controlling the seeker Not the model that has it equipped. hence why you don't need LOS from the Model it is equipped on. And the fact you get no cover save from it as the Markerlight has it pin pointed. But This is just a Fluffy explanation of why it works. And as such is not actually a rule of how it works so cannot be used. I didn't get back in time to phone the number GW emailed me for Rules enquirers. But at the same time. Even if it was confirmed by GW Customer services that they do hit flyers on BS5. Posting it in here would also mean very little. And would still be argued That it doesn't count because its not in the FAQ's. Again its Rules as written over common sense.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its only considered a weapon if fired normally without the use of a markerlight token.

If using the markerlight token however its different. It should be treated like activating a one time use wargear and ignore rules that effect a firing model, such as Hard to Hit.

Any rules to back up this claim? You still have to compete with this FAQ:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. (SIC)

I guess you have to have enough post-cred to give an opinion here.

 thejughead wrote:
I guess you have to have enough post-cred to give an opinion here.

No one's saying that.
Perhaps you'd like to attempt a rebuttal against the points I made?

All this talk about how the seeker missile is resolved at BS 5, did it ever occur the reason they give it an explicit BS is because they wanted to get rid of the confusion of 'what BS the missiles fire at?" A lot of models can get this upgrade and without the explicit BS assignment they would of had to word it as 'Seeker uses the firing models BS' which would of brought up the argument that I get he benefits of the model when I fire a seeker because you know, I'm using that model to fire it bla bla bla which model is the 'actually' firing the seeker bla bla bla. But no, they bypass all the crap that they would need to define and write an additional rule for by just giving it a static BS entry to use. The marker light is doing the work, lets not have to worry about BS 4 vehicles and BS 3 suites or w/e they are and provide a static entry of 5 to make it more accurate as having to hit twice is a bit much for a one shot weapon. Having a BS 5 assigned doesn't mean you ignore rules like 'hard to hit', they are just giving you a static entry to bypass the confusion presented with the alternative 'use the firing models BS'.

You hit with a marker light on a 6, you fire a seeker with a BS of 5, the seeker gets knocked down to 1 due to 'hard to hit' like everyone else w/o skyfire.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its only considered a weapon if fired normally without the use of a markerlight token.

If using the markerlight token however its different. It should be treated like activating a one time use wargear and ignore rules that effect a firing model, such as Hard to Hit.

Sure, it is not a weapon when fired using a Markerlight. Therefore, you can hit on a 2+. Oh, but just so you are aware, since it is not a weapon, you do not get the strength for armour penetration, just a straight D6, so I'm not worried about my Flyers being hit.

rigeld2, I did. You dismissed them.

thejughead: I have one simple question for you:

Is the BS used for seeker missiles a modifier, yes or no?

Before you answer, please think about this -
1) If it is a modifier, it cannot affect Snap Shots as you cannot modify Snap Shots (unless you have explicit permission, see Pinpoint).
2) If it is not a modifier, then why are you not modifying it with a set modifier (which is applied last)?