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 Medium of Death wrote:
That Wordbearer fluff is news to me. I thought they were one of the more unified legions. Pretty disappointing if that's official.

Word Bearers would have been the perfect supplement codex. Daemons, CSM, Lost and the Damned. Such variety.

This certainly has me curious, if not a little puzzled.

I'm sorry, maybe my statements about the Word Bearers is being misinterpreted (or are you referring to someone else's statement?). I didn't mean to imply anywhere that Word Bearers weren't united.

If anything, Word Bearers are probably the most united of the traitor legions. All Word Bearers answer to the Dark Council and generally operate as a cohesive legion with a singular goal all the time. The Black Legion, meanwhile, is mostly separate warbands that get together when Abaddon tells them to, but otherwise I'm under the impression they get to do their own things (within reason. The "within reason" part is what makes the Black Legion a lot more unified than most other traitor legions).

(this is "relative". Word Bearers are still Chaos and thus divisions arise, but these are so minor on the overall scale that Erebus regards his little shadow civil wars with Kor Phaeron to just be normal daily routine things).

A Word Bears Codex would probably have more focus on normal humans (the flock) and daemons, at the cost of single-god units (Word Bearers frown on giving into a single God instead of Chaos Undivided, I believe)

 Plokoone wrote:
Black Legion?

I hope they make an Ultramarines book as well.

Exactly! After hearing this news, I'm almost positive there will be a UM Supplement. Insane ...

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:
Goddamn GW, haven't you taken enough of my money?!

God only knows why they've decided to make this, it'll be interesting to see if the rules will differ greatly from the regular codex.
Maybe it'll unlock Cult units as troops?

It'll be weird though as Abaddon is in the main Codex, I'm not familiar with the Iyanden supplement, but can you mix and match?

From what I've heard, it's actually open enough to allow at least most regular Eldar choices, and was mostly some different warlord traits/gear/a little reorganization of force org, that you can use in a variant of the regular codex (all the new stuff replaced the regular options)

Would have loved to see some Night Lord love.

Wasn't that the point of the Black Legion, to be that generic "catch all" CSM force? And don't we have a CSM Legion already covering pretty much everything else? That sort of defeats the purpose they've been crafted for.

This is probably going to be a supplement that finally differentiates them from the rest of the renegades. I think it's best to be patient and see what they came up with before passing judgement.

 Alpharius wrote:
Black Legion?

The Chaos Space Marine force that is least in need of a special supplement?

OK!

I don't think these early supplements are meant to be game changers. Just filler and bumps in sales. Look at what we already know or have.

Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Do we really need a farsight supplement? He's in the book, you can already not take kroot or ethereals if you want. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious Tau fans.

However, if the pace of codexes keeps up there's going to be a period of time toward the end of 6ed lifecycle where there's little left to update. That's where a much anticipated supplement, with some major changes like new special character and FOC adjustments, makes the most sense (from a sales perspective).

 winterman wrote:


Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Do we really need a farsight supplement? He's in the book, you can already not take kroot or ethereals if you want. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious Tau fans.

They all share having ties to relatively specific, and highly "iconic" events that can be "re-told" in the campaign-style missions of the Iyanden book.

Iyanden, well, has the near-destruction of the Iyanden Craftworld, broken down to an almost "family-sized" history revolving around 3 or 4 main-characters. Most other Craftworlds, Saim-Hann say, aren't that defined by a singular turning point.

Farsight, similarly, in that the new Codex tells the Farsight-enclaves break-away as an almost triangle-tale of rivalries/interactions between Shadowsun, Farsight, Aun'va and, possibly, Puretide.

Black Legion will be able to home in on the last Black Crusade, Cadia, etc,,, in ways the more "diffuse" Legions cannot.

By the same measure, I could easily see an Ultramarines (Tyranids again) or Crimson Fists (Rynn's World!) supplement in the Iyanden-format, the way I couldn't see, say, a Raven Guard supplement (at least not with the kind of emphasis and focus that made the Iyanden supplement).

 winterman wrote:
I don't think these early supplements are meant to be game changers. Just filler and bumps in sales. Look at what we already know or have.

Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Do we really need a farsight supplement? He's in the book, you can already not take kroot or ethereals if you want. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious Tau fans.

However, if the pace of codexes keeps up there's going to be a period of time toward the end of 6ed lifecycle where there's little left to update. That's where a much anticipated supplement, with some major changes like new special character and FOC adjustments, makes the most sense (from a sales perspective).

I totally agree. Extra rules, force org chart moves, metagame shifts, etc. aren't really GW's focus for these right now so much as providing extra fluff, color and fun for diehards.

I think there were past rumors about a new Abaddon sculpt...that could be something we'd see alongside a BL supplement.

It is all very simple really. Black Legion is arguably the most popular of the Chaos Space Marine chapters which means a supplement for that faction has the highest chances of selling the best. It really isn't about what unit types aren't as popular on the tabletop in the original codex and could use a booster with a supplement. What it comes down to is a) The best bang they can get for their buck and b) everything else.

So, we'll be seeing a Cadian supplement for Guard then, right guys?

There's potential here, but as per usual, GW has kept its pants firmly on its head.

I mean, for Chaos, Iron Warriors really make the most sense as a supplement, as you can't really represent them or Night Lords with any real effectiveness out of the existant codex. All you'd need is some special wargear, unique warlord trait, and allow Imperial Guard artillery as heavy support options; basilisks and the like.

Viola, fits the very limited format they're going with to a tee, Night Lords would be much the same; raptors as troops, fear USR and a few fluffy warlord traits and gear.

I'd, of course, prefer something more exhaustive, but this system can work to help give a little more flavour to under-loved Chaos factions.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
So, we'll be seeing a Cadian supplement for Guard then, right guys?

The rumor given by Big Red was Catachan. That said, since Iyanden was announced just about every codex has had a rumored supplement already despite never hearing about them beforehand (and the second hasn't been released yet). Best Pone's got some decent accuracy on recent rumors, so that'd be the supplement I'd believe most from the recent mentions.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
So, we'll be seeing a Cadian supplement for Guard then, right guys?

That was my first thought.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
So, we'll be seeing a Cadian supplement for Guard then, right guys?

There's potential here, but as per usual, GW has kept its pants firmly on its head.

I mean, for Chaos, Iron Warriors really make the most sense as a supplement, as you can't really represent them or Night Lords with any real effectiveness out of the existant codex. All you'd need is some special wargear, unique warlord trait, and allow Imperial Guard artillery as heavy support options; basilisks and the like.

Viola, fits the very limited format they're going with to a tee, Night Lords would be much the same; raptors as troops, fear USR and a few fluffy warlord traits and gear.

I'd, of course, prefer something more exhaustive, but this system can work to help give a little more flavour to under-loved Chaos factions.

I play Iron Warriors, and I don't think we need our own supplement. You can take daemon engines or Vindicators or Obliterators just fine as is, take a Warsmith (drop the P, keep it Iron ) and ally in Guard with a battery of three Basilisks. You can actually take more Basilisks with Iron Warriors now than you could in the 3.5 codex!

meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Lovepug13 wrote:
meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Joke's already been made on this page, but thanks for complaining about it before we know anything about it whatsoever, that's pretty helpful!

TiamatRoar wrote:
Really, if they wanted a "Vanilla, but different" legion, they should have gone with the Red Corsairs, who are known to use things that other legions probably wouldn't (like Xenos, a sadly horrifically downplayed aspect of the fluff. Humans aren't the only things that can turn to chaos.

I've always wondered this myself. Why can only humans turn to chaos? Then I realized that GW has written horrible fluff and came up with some stupid excuse so they didn't have to create chaos tau or chaos orks. They don't even have rules for chaos SoB. Just CSM. Very lazy in my opinion.



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 Brother SRM wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Joke's already been made on this page, but thanks for complaining about it before we know anything about it whatsoever, that's pretty helpful!

Well, we do know that it is the last chaos army in need of a suppliment. So there is that...

 winterman wrote:
Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Yeah, the Iyanden Supplement was a fluff book ... and?

Iyanden are not bog standard Eldar. Black Legion, at least in previous edition, are bog standard CSM.

dereksatkinson wrote:

Wasn't that the point of the Black Legion, to be that generic "catch all" CSM force? And don't we have a CSM Legion already covering pretty much everything else? That sort of defeats the purpose they've been crafted for.

This is probably going to be a supplement that finally differentiates them from the rest of the renegades. I think it's best to be patient and see what they came up with before passing judgement.

Again, Black Legion being Vanilla is already what differentiates it from the rest of the renegades in the first place. Out of all the traitor legions, only the Black Legion has all 4 cult troops (Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords frown on singular god troops most of the time), a decent amount of artillery (night lords are almost entirely fear and shock and nothing else), cultists, and use of daemons and sorcery as well, all in "balanced" amounts. In other words, the codex of Chaos Marines which has everything is the codex of the Black Legion because they have everything (except Dark Apostles, who are Word Bearer only. That said, I'd be surprised if the Word Bearers didn't have some of them attached to the Black Legion to keep the good word spreading). It's the Black Legion that other legions define themselves against by showing the emphasis of specialists they have that the Black Legion doesn't (like ridiculous amounts of artillery the Iron Warriors have above and beyond what the Black Legion typically fields), as well as the units they lack that the Black Legion has (like dedicated single-god troops).

About the only new unit I can think of at the moment that would fit in as a Black Legion unit is a unit that conveys coherency bonuses to units of different gods (Black Legion is a legion of Chaos Undivided that utilizes all four god's specialized units, so it'd thematically make sense that the Black Legion have officers who specialize in finding ways to get Slaaneshi Noise Marines and Khornate Beserkers to actually get along for the sake of a common goal of spreading Chaos). ....actually, that'd be kinda neat now that I think about it. ...whatever.

 Davespil wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Really, if they wanted a "Vanilla, but different" legion, they should have gone with the Red Corsairs, who are known to use things that other legions probably wouldn't (like Xenos, a sadly horrifically downplayed aspect of the fluff. Humans aren't the only things that can turn to chaos.

I've always wondered this myself. Why can only humans turn to chaos? Then I realized that GW has written horrible fluff and came up with some stupid excuse so they didn't have to create chaos tau or chaos orks. They don't even have rules for chaos SoB. Just CSM. Very lazy in my opinion.



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 Brother SRM wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Joke's already been made on this page, but thanks for complaining about it before we know anything about it whatsoever, that's pretty helpful!

Well, we do know that it is the last chaos army in need of a suppliment. So there is that...

In the Chaos Daemons fluff, Khorne actually trains his Heralds by using a faction of orks that he personally took to his kingdom in the warp. They were the ones that landed on a planet and kept being revived day by day, fighting a powerful Daemon Lord...And loved it! Khorne was so proud of them that he swept them up, and brought them to fight his greatest warriors, still being revived day by day, battle by battle, able to be watched by khorne as he looks down in glee at the foot of his lair.


But maybe this is where they finally differentiate Black Legion. I mean Ultramarines has it's Anti-Tyranid hate (Anti-tyranid warriors) and some other stuff, maybe thats what they're doing now?

 Manchu wrote:

 winterman wrote:
Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Yeah, the Iyanden Supplement was a fluff book ... and?

Iyanden are not bog standard Eldar. Black Legion, at least in previous edition, are bog standard CSM.

So Black Legion are bog standard CSM ... and?

What would constitute bog standard Eldar? And that wouldn't serve GW more from a sales standpoint being released with some future model update? And that pimps the current crop of models?

In otherwords if there's nothing new to sell model wise then the supplements are going to focus on the bog standard or stuff that is already released, not the outliers.

That's the point of my post, which is wholly lost when you only quote a part of it.

GW marketing is better served by holding back armies like Word Bearers and World Eaters for when they have updated kits to pimp. Hence Black Legion gets released, something that can easily pimp what is already released with something as simple as an extra list of wargear (Black Legion specific demon weapon, teleport homers) and an FOC swap (cult units as troops without a lord, like they used to be able to do since 3.5).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Again, Black Legion being Vanilla is already what differentiates it from the rest of the renegades in the first place. Out of all the traitor legions, only the Black Legion has all 4 cult troops (Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords frown on singular god troops most of the time), a decent amount of artillery (night lords are almost entirely fear and shock and nothing else), cultists, and use of daemons and sorcery as well, all in "balanced" amounts. In other words, the codex of Chaos Marines which has everything is the codex of the Black Legion because they have everything (except Dark Apostles, who are Word Bearer only.

The current codex places limits on the cult units that have not applied to Black Legion players since before 3.5. I think that alone is reason enough to release a BL supplement.

Word Bearers will get a supplemement once GW releases an actual cultist box (or some other new kit that fits them)

Well, looks like all the "Ultramarine supplement" jokes have been made, but the fact they are to CSM what UM are to C:SM makes me fairly sceptical of this rumour. They just seem too generic. I can believe the book will get a supplement, but not this one.

On the other hand I think Catachans would make sense as an IG supplement, as they're hardly the "all-rounder" of IG regiments and some pretty interesting stuff could be done with their guerrilla/highly mobile theme.

 Alpharius wrote:
Black Legion?

The Chaos Space Marine force that is least in need of a special supplement?

OK!

This is EXACTLY the first thought I had. Iyanden made sense (what with the new Wraithguard plastics, Wraithknight, and Spiritseer releases), as did Tau (Farsight being the most well-known specific Tau group). But Black Legion? Aren't they like the Ultramarines of Chaos? Since the supplements don't seem to offer a great deal in terms of substantive rules and such, I guess this is not all that strange, but I can't help but think that Iron Warriors, or some other popular, non-standard CSM legion would have been a better plase to start. How many people out there have Black Legion forces compared to Iron Warriors? Or World Eaters, Thousand Sons, etc.

-C6

TiamatRoar wrote:
... if only due to the fact that only Word Bearers use Dark Apostles...

They changed that fluff. Everyone has 'em now.

I am pretty sure Legion was meant to be Templars but easy mistake, right?...... Right?

 unmercifulconker wrote:
I am pretty sure Legion was meant to be Templars but easy mistake, right?...... Right?

No. Unless, if by Templars you mean Bretonnians then... still NO. Man, WHFB has been getting some serious neglect this year.

A cadian supplement would be sweet. They are not a typical guard regiment at all. The average imperial guardsman is not trained in battle from childhood, and it'd be cool if a supplement could capture the martial prowess of cadia.

 Medium of Death wrote:
That Wordbearer fluff is news to me. I thought they were one of the more unified legions. Pretty disappointing if that's official.
Word Bearers would have been the perfect supplement codex. Daemons, CSM, Lost and the Damned. Such variety.
This certainly has me curious, if not a little puzzled.

Yeah, I've never read/heard that. Source?

 Manchu wrote:

 Plokoone wrote:
Black Legion?

I hope they make an Ultramarines book as well.

Exactly! After hearing this news, I'm almost positive there will be a UM Supplement. Insane ...

To be fair though, Black Legion and Ultramarines do each have something unique to them.

Ultramarines have the "Tyrannic War Veterans" which people lamented vanishing and the Black Legion have been described recently(at least in the Black Library, I'm thinking of the Soul Hunter books right off the top of my head) as having a large amount of captured Guard armour and traitor Guard personnel(and freed Imperial criminals) as being part of their resources at hand.

Ultramarines getting Tyrannic War Veteran rules in a little 'supplement' is not something I would be opposed to, provided it also gave Telion some more background.

Black Legion getting actual, dedicated cultists with serious firepower and training? Again: Not something I would be opposed to.

Cadians getting an actual Kasrkin unit profile and the ability to field them en masse?
All over that...provided it comes out in a physical format, as I do not have a tablet that I would use to cart things around on.

Traitor Guard are already represented in at least four places (Imperial Guard, 3 different iterations of rabble with the siege of Vraks).

Back when Kasrkin were an option, Stormtroopers didn't have AP3 rifles- you were mostly buying veteran stats and carapace armor (which you can still do)

Got nothing on Tyrannic vets.

If this brings with it a plastic Chosen kit, I'm all for it.