Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Also Slaanesh could have another reason. They feel the pain, but they love it so much they continue on anyways, a new sensation of blissful pain for He who thirsts.

There are people who like pain.

 Zweischneid wrote:

demontalons wrote:

No intelligent path system.. (like Nurgle Terminators not having FnP but SLaanesh terms do?)

Not sure what the problem is there?

Nurgle getting FnP or extra Toughness never made sense. Ever had an infection? Poke it! It hurts more, not less. Diseased people go down faster if hit, not slower.

Slaanesh crazed-out and drugged-out people not feeling their wounds? I can get behind that.

There is nothing wrong with your logic. The point I think people are making is consistency. If you want slaanesh to have FNP because of their "crazy drug habits", then make it standard for noise marines instead of plague marines.

But clearly Phil Kelly had to NOT give FNP to nurgle because things like T5 terminators with FNP might be considered unbalanced to those poor imperial armies with their crappy terminators like grey knnights.

 Sidstyler wrote:

There are a lot of additions that aren't fully thought out or just don't work so well, there's a lot of stuff that needed fixing that didn't get it, and there are a lot of rather reasonable options people have been begging for that did not appear, and the internal balance is still painfully off kilter.

Sounds like every other 6th edition codex so far.

The only options in the Tau book that aren't so great are the Flyers. I've done well or above my expectations with everything else I've tried.

I suppose I am just accustomed to Nurgle having FNP, but now that I think about it, it doesn't make too much sense.

Out of all the cult marines, I think it would make the most sense for 1k Sons to have FNP.

The plague that creates plague marines drives a marine insane with pain and corruption, but also keeps them alive regardless of bodily function, like a zombie plague but for space marines. Eventually, the victim is driven to either off themselves, or beg nurgle for relief, which the gradfather grants not by taking away their ability to feel pain at all.

It isn't the disease, but the blessing of nurgle itself that grants plague marines FNP. Likewise, it isn't the corruption that increases their toughness, but the fact that they're basically zombies with no need for functioning muscles to move their bodies or internal organs and vascular systems to pump life through them.


And yeah, it could have been written differently. MoN could grant poison instead of extra toughness. And all the cults could justify fnp - zerkers and noise marines both canonically feel pain in battle as pleasure, and thousand sons are empty suits of armor that feel no pain at all. It would have been easy enough to introduce 'chaos armor' as power armor with FNP, and then just give it to all of the cult units by default. Honestly, the cult units in general really warranted a complete re-think from the ground up, but instead they were ported over from the last book with hardly any change or thought at all. Oh, well.

Anyway, it is annoying that our characters and terminators can't have the rules and upgrades associated with the cults. Hopefully the eventual cult supplements will rectify this, but it should have been in the book to begin with.

 Malisteen wrote:
The plague that creates plague marines drives a marine insane with pain and corruption, but also keeps them alive regardless of bodily function, like a zombie plague but for space marines. Eventually, the victim is driven to either off themselves, or beg nurgle for relief, which the gradfather grants not by taking away their ability to feel pain at all.

It isn't the disease, but the blessing of nurgle itself that grants plague marines FNP. Likewise, it isn't the corruption that increases their toughness, but the fact that they're basically zombies with no need for functioning muscles to move their bodies or internal organs and vascular systems to pump life through them.


And yeah, it could have been written differently. MoN could grant poison instead of extra toughness. And all the cults could justify fnp - zerkers and noise marines both canonically feel pain in battle as pleasure, and thousand sons are empty suits of armor that feel no pain at all. It would have been easy enough to introduce 'chaos armor' as power armor with FNP, and then just give it to all of the cult units by default. Honestly, the cult units in general really warranted a complete re-think from the ground up, but instead they were ported over from the last book with hardly any change or thought at all. Oh, well.

Anyway, it is annoying that our characters and terminators can't have the rules and upgrades associated with the cults. Hopefully the eventual cult supplements will rectify this, but it should have been in the book to begin with.

Ofcourse there would have been some major whining and lamenting had they redone the cult marines altogether.
But I really see what you mean, the exact same problem was found in the new eldar dex conserning their aspect warriors.
Some of them, like fire dragons, are great (they also remained unchanged), but many of the aspects, like banshees and scorps and shiningspears really needed a total remake (and still do).

 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

And these are not real Chaos Space Marines fans then. These are FotM fans.

 logg_frogg wrote:
ooooO As a black legion player I agree that there is probably little to gain but fluff from this codex release but I am however very excited!

I would second that... not sure what special fluff they can add to the "Ultramarine" standard of chaos.

Davor wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

And these are not real Chaos Space Marines fans then. These are FotM fans.

Whoa there. You replied to a general statement with a general statement of your own.

I ONLY play CSM, and I like the codex. But even I admit there are some thing in this codex that seem lazy. Chosen have a non-sensible base point cost, warp talons lack useful special rules, and mutilators seem like they were created by a 5 year old saying "what about obliterators with close-combat weapons!"

Now I make the codex work, and I have success with it. But that does not excuse how many lazy, boring units and rules there are.

Let's not put general statements on "CSM" players (except that we are whiny... I accept that we are whiny).

 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

Ah, no. I have every CSM codex.
This one is not bad but yes the "flavors" could have been developed more but it has a bit more variety. (They charge me more points for the combat weapon! rage!)
It was a more "thoughtful" and balanced codex which does not measure well alongside the more scary BA, GK, Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

The one before this was a steaming mess because it seemed to severely limit what any unit could do and reduced demons to a few generic ones to choose from.
It was more a victim of "over adjustment" and contrast with the prior codex that seemed wide open. It was very limiting in comparison.

Three codexes back was the gold standard: almost too many options to choose from: Every form of chaos army with full unique abilities and equipment were available.

2nd edition Chaos was small squad killer character codex (great fluff and gear) it had a lot for ideas and the super old models that I have...

I suppose it is a matter of what you learned the game on but it is the "throttling back" elements of a codex that can get ugly.
This last codex it was not as noticeable since the prior codex already had adjusted for 6th edition (which I say was the worst).

 Talizvar wrote:

 logg_frogg wrote:
ooooO As a black legion player I agree that there is probably little to gain but fluff from this codex release but I am however very excited!

I would second that... not sure what special fluff they can add to the "Ultramarine" standard of chaos.

Have you read the current space marine and chaos marine codeces? The Space marine book is stuffed with ultramarine philosophy, combat doctrine, histories & battles, personalities, characters, unique units, cultural and combat practices, the organization of their military domain, etc. By contrast, the CSM book mentions the Black Legion, Abbadon, and the crusades, but they get hardly more than just that, a mention.

So, what could a Black Legion supplement add?

How about detailed descriptions of the crusades, most of which remain undefined? New personalities besides Abaddon, perhaps going into the chosen and giving them all their own flavor and personality and rivalries? A description of the dust nebula they keep their fleet in when not crusading, as well as what life and cultural practices within the legion are like between battles? Force organizations and subfactions within the legion? The nature of their alliances with daemonic powers, the dark mech, and other legions? Stories of how the Legion went from being the smallest surviving chaos legion with only a relative handful of embittered vets to the largest force of chaos marines, and what the process is for incorporating subsequent recruits and converts into the fold without overall organization and command breaking down entirely? Perhaps further examples and explanation of common combat doctrine to help distinguish a fluffy 'Black Legion' army from just any old chaos warband? Just a general thematic tone to give the legion overall some personality? For instance, Ultramarines have a classical greek or roman theme going that distinguishes their personality from other space marine chapters & legions, while the Black has never really had such a theme, or if they did it never came to the forefront. That's the kind of thing that's really valuable for establishing the identity of a subfaction that the Black Legion never really had and that a supplement book could easily add, without having to weigh in with a bunch of new rules or models.

Seriously, there's tons of open ground with the Black Legion. They want the least in terms of rules, but these books are like 50 pages of fluff and 2 pages of rules, and those 50 pages could easily be put to good use.


Besides, it won't be a long wait for other supplements from the look of it. The next eldar and tau supplements already seem to be in the works, and I doubt other chaos legions will be far behind.

 Malisteen wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 logg_frogg wrote:
ooooO As a black legion player I agree that there is probably little to gain but fluff from this codex release but I am however very excited!

I would second that... not sure what special fluff they can add to the "Ultramarine" standard of chaos.

Have you read the current space marine and chaos marine codeces? The Space marine book is stuffed with ultramarine philosophy, combat doctrine, histories & battles, personalities, characters, unique units, cultural and combat practices, the organization of their military domain, etc. By contrast, the CSM book mentions the Black Legion, Abbadon, and the crusades, but they get hardly more than just that, a mention.

So, what could a Black Legion supplement add?

How about detailed descriptions of the crusades, most of which remain undefined? New personalities besides Abaddon, perhaps going into the chosen and giving them all their own flavor and personality and rivalries? A description of the dust nebula they keep their fleet in when not crusading, as well as what life and cultural practices within the legion are like between battles? Force organizations and subfactions within the legion? The nature of their alliances with daemonic powers, the dark mech, and other legions? Stories of how the Legion went from being the smallest surviving chaos legion with only a relative handful of embittered vets to the largest force of chaos marines, and what the process is for incorporating subsequent recruits and converts into the fold without overall organization and command breaking down entirely? Perhaps further examples and explanation of common combat doctrine to help distinguish a fluffy 'Black Legion' army from just any old chaos warband? Just a general thematic tone to give the legion overall some personality? For instance, Ultramarines have a classical greek or roman theme going that distinguishes their personality from other space marine chapters & legions, while the Black has never really had such a theme, or if they did it never came to the forefront. That's the kind of thing that's really valuable for establishing the identity of a subfaction that the Black Legion never really had and that a supplement book could easily add, without having to weigh in with a bunch of new rules or models.

Seriously, there's tons of open ground with the Black Legion. They want the least in terms of rules, but these books are like 50 pages of fluff and 2 pages of rules, and those 50 pages could easily be put to good use.


Besides, it won't be a long wait for other supplements from the look of it. The next eldar and tau supplements already seem to be in the works, and I doubt other chaos legions will be far behind.

I don't think the Black Legion need a supplement in terms of rules, but it's true that in terms of fluff, they really are woefully undefined post-heresy. At least the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords got a series of novels to flesh them out. Black Legion, meanwhile, despite being the main central chaos legion is an enigma. In the end, WH40k fans basically had to assume they were card carrying villains that just goofily accomplished nothing with Failbaddon as their leader, because we never got to see anything from their perspective. Later GW tried to give them a saving throw, saying that the Black Crusades weren't meant to topple the Imperium by itself but instead each was a stepping stone towards that goal. But yet we still know nothing about the Legion. If it weren't for Abaddon's mark of Chaos Undivided, we wouldn't even know if they're actually loyal to chaos at all or not or something in between or anything, and even then we really only have Abaddon's mark to say such. How does the average Black Legoinaire view his Chaos gods? How do they, as a force of Chaos Undivided, interact with Cult Troops (Beserkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, etc) both within the Legion and without? (Interacting with a fellow Black Legionaire who's also a plague Marine? A black legionnaire that's a noise marine interacting with a Black Legion member that's a khorne beserker? It's easy to picture Cult Marines being separate warbands, but when they are all members of the same legion, how does that work?)

Etc etc etc. Is the Black Legion a group of Chaos Undivided Marines and Chaos Cult Marines that's only barely held together, or are they actually all Chaos Undivided, even the Cult Marines, all working united together for the greater (Chaos) good of all? (well, we know that Chaos is inherently fractional but still, the idea of Noise Marines and Beserkers belonging to the same legion just raises up so many questions of whether they interact with each other on a regular basis or if they're instead just segregated from each other. And how dedicated are they to the cause of Chaos Undivided versus the cause of their god alone?)

With any luck, a supplement will shed some light and meat on a lot of things regarding the Black Legion. .....hopefully.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I suppose I am just accustomed to Nurgle having FNP, but now that I think about it, it doesn't make too much sense.

Out of all the cult marines, I think it would make the most sense for 1k Sons to have FNP.

I really think Tsons should have had 2 wounds or something similar to resurrections proticals. They plod forward unstoppably.

They use to have 2 wounds.

The sorcerers should also have PE space wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

And these are not real Chaos Space Marines fans then. These are FotM fans.

FotM players are running triple heldrake. a lot of old CSM players, even some old IW players think the dinobots and the heldrake especilly are kind of silly

 Exergy wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I suppose I am just accustomed to Nurgle having FNP, but now that I think about it, it doesn't make too much sense.

Out of all the cult marines, I think it would make the most sense for 1k Sons to have FNP.

I really think Tsons should have had 2 wounds or something similar to resurrections proticals. They plod forward unstoppably.

They use to have 2 wounds.

The sorcerers should also have PE space wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

And these are not real Chaos Space Marines fans then. These are FotM fans.

FotM players are running triple heldrake. a lot of old CSM players, even some old IW players think the dinobots and the heldrake especilly are kind of silly

Lets see, they used to have..

Immunity to Ranged S4 and under (Which was cool, 3.0 edition)

Two Wounds (3.5)

4++ (4E and up)

I like the dinobots and the heldrake, I just think they should've been done better in terms of options and stats, not to mention not being the ONLY one's with those weapons! I would love to stuff a hades cannon on a predator.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lets see, they used to have..

Immunity to Ranged S4 and under (Which was cool, 3.0 edition)

Two Wounds (3.5)

These were both in the original 3.0 codex. Though oddly (IMHO) sniper rifles / poisoned weapons still worked on them as usual.

prankster wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lets see, they used to have..

Immunity to Ranged S4 and under (Which was cool, 3.0 edition)

Two Wounds (3.5)

These were both in the original 3.0 codex. Though oddly (IMHO) sniper rifles / poisoned weapons still worked on them as usual.

..I never actually noticed that before, I have it in hand and I still missed that.

And they are still the same cost as today's codex too!

 Malisteen wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 logg_frogg wrote:
ooooO As a black legion player I agree that there is probably little to gain but fluff from this codex release but I am however very excited!

I would second that... not sure what special fluff they can add to the "Ultramarine" standard of chaos.

Have you read the current space marine and chaos marine codeces? The Space marine book is stuffed with ultramarine philosophy, combat doctrine, histories & battles, personalities, characters, unique units, cultural and combat practices, the organization of their military domain, etc. By contrast, the CSM book mentions the Black Legion, Abbadon, and the crusades, but they get hardly more than just that, a mention.

So, what could a Black Legion supplement add?

How about detailed descriptions of the crusades, most of which remain undefined? New personalities besides Abaddon, perhaps going into the chosen and giving them all their own flavor and personality and rivalries? A description of the dust nebula they keep their fleet in when not crusading, as well as what life and cultural practices within the legion are like between battles? Force organizations and subfactions within the legion? The nature of their alliances with daemonic powers, the dark mech, and other legions? Stories of how the Legion went from being the smallest surviving chaos legion with only a relative handful of embittered vets to the largest force of chaos marines, and what the process is for incorporating subsequent recruits and converts into the fold without overall organization and command breaking down entirely? Perhaps further examples and explanation of common combat doctrine to help distinguish a fluffy 'Black Legion' army from just any old chaos warband? Just a general thematic tone to give the legion overall some personality? For instance, Ultramarines have a classical greek or roman theme going that distinguishes their personality from other space marine chapters & legions, while the Black has never really had such a theme, or if they did it never came to the forefront. That's the kind of thing that's really valuable for establishing the identity of a subfaction that the Black Legion never really had and that a supplement book could easily add, without having to weigh in with a bunch of new rules or models.

Seriously, there's tons of open ground with the Black Legion. They want the least in terms of rules, but these books are like 50 pages of fluff and 2 pages of rules, and those 50 pages could easily be put to good use.


Besides, it won't be a long wait for other supplements from the look of it. The next eldar and tau supplements already seem to be in the works, and I doubt other chaos legions will be far behind.

The Black Legion are Very Bad. And Very Black. They have Crusades. Which are Very Bad. And also Very Black. They are organized in warbanz. Lots and lots of warbanz. Even more than the other Chaos Space Marines who are also warbanz. And they love Chaos. With their all of their bodies. Including their pee-pee. /fluff

That's already better than the whole SW background.
But unlike the SW, the Black Legion has potential.

I have always viewed the Black Legion as the generic chaos army, but the hypothetical supplement described by Malisteen sounds cool.

I realize that one problem with viewing the Black Legoin as "the generic army" is we kinda already have a COMPETENT "generic" army with the Iron Warriors. We know that they're a bunch of stoic (and evil) professionals (relatively speaking). Yea, relative to other Chaos forces, they're "the stoics", but someone who is "the stoic" to Chaos basically equates to "the generic" when compared to anything not flying rodent gak insane like Chaos is. Because we know that, what does that make the Black Legion? Well, the only thing left is to imagine the Black Legion as a bunch of "kinda psychopath, but not as psychopath as those single-god legion guys" chaos marines. And that means that the Black Legion are somewhere in between those "stoic by chaos standards, generic/SANE by other standards" and those "absolutely flying rodent gak INSANE" guys, and the only thing most people are able to picture from that is basically the "army of thieves and whores".

And that just contributes even more to the "Failbaddon" image that Abaddon is canonically NOT supposed to have but is nigh impossible for people to imagine otherwise, due to the lack of fluff on the Black Legion and the other legions already getting novels that allowed us to see them as competent.

Well I remember having the kinda failbaddon image until I read that the goal of each black crusade was to gather materials. So for one crusade it was the black stone fortresses, another it was some dagger. Each crusade building towards some goal which I think is the current one in codex CSM where he plans to expand the eye of terror slowly until it consumes everything.

Like I said, canonically he isn't failbaddon. The chaos gods themselves marked him out to tell everyone that they're behind him 100%. But the lack of fluff and things like the Black Legion's perspective sure as heck make him LOOK like he is. It was only recently that we got this latest fluff giving just a teeny bit of his perspective that showed that yes, the Black Crusades were NOT failures from his perspective.

But before then, without his perspective, all we had to go by made him look like a fail. Even today, after that small puny morsel of fluff, lots of people can't seem to get over it. This is why it's probably important to get more fluff from the Black Legon's perspective to prevent or fix this sort of thing.

It doesn't help that even most Black Library writers jumped on that boat. Erebus in the Word Bearers series and the protagonist of the Night Lords series didn't have very glowing opinions of Abaddon, although I believe the latter at least pointed out that if Abaddon really were a failure, the gods would have done away with him long ago, therefore there must have been more to him than meets the eye. We the WH40k fans simply have yet to see what most of that is, alas.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Like I said, canonically he isn't failbaddon. The chaos gods themselves marked him out to tell everyone that they're behind him 100%. But the lack of fluff and things like the Black Legion's perspective sure as heck make him LOOK like he is. It was only recently that we got this latest fluff giving just a teeny bit of his perspective that showed that yes, the Black Crusades were NOT failures from his perspective.

But before then, without his perspective, all we had to go by made him look like a fail. Even today, after that small puny morsel of fluff, lots of people can't seem to get over it. This is why it's probably important to get more fluff from the Black Legon's perspective to prevent or fix this sort of thing.

It doesn't help that even most Black Library writers jumped on that boat. Erebus in the Word Bearers series and the protagonist of the Night Lords series didn't have very glowing opinions of Abaddon, although I believe the latter at least pointed out that if Abaddon really were a failure, the gods would have done away with him long ago, therefore there must have been more to him than meets the eye. We the WH40k fans simply have yet to see what most of that is, alas.

It also helps that even if the crusades were failures, they pleased the gods in each of their ways. Khorne gets a ton of blood, war and death. Nurgle get's pestilence, plague, and other problems caused by destroying vast amounts of healthy infrastructure (Decay), Slaanesh gets new pleasures, slaves to grind into the drugs and other tasks, and Tzeentch gets to see a finely tuned plan working since all of the warbands aren't murdering each other.

 Trevak Dal wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

There are a lot of additions that aren't fully thought out or just don't work so well, there's a lot of stuff that needed fixing that didn't get it, and there are a lot of rather reasonable options people have been begging for that did not appear, and the internal balance is still painfully off kilter.

Sounds like every other 6th edition codex so far.

The only options in the Tau book that aren't so great are the Flyers. I've done well or above my expectations with everything else I've tried.

Heavy Rail Rifles.

RogueRegault wrote:

 Trevak Dal wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

There are a lot of additions that aren't fully thought out or just don't work so well, there's a lot of stuff that needed fixing that didn't get it, and there are a lot of rather reasonable options people have been begging for that did not appear, and the internal balance is still painfully off kilter.

Sounds like every other 6th edition codex so far.

The only options in the Tau book that aren't so great are the Flyers. I've done well or above my expectations with everything else I've tried.

Heavy Rail Rifles.

Good against fliers, or quite fun with interceptor. Broadsides are no longer easy-mode.

I really hope that they add some new events to the 40k timeline in the BL supplement, i mean they can't keep up the charade long can they? the story has been at a stand still for ages, like when does the 13th crusade end?

 wolfmerc wrote:
I really hope that they add some new events to the 40k timeline in the BL supplement, i mean they can't keep up the charade long can they? the story has been at a stand still for ages, like when does the 13th crusade end?

War never changes.

I want to see more about the early and mid Black Crusades. More M32-33 and M37-39 stuff.

 wolfmerc wrote:
I really hope that they add some new events to the 40k timeline in the BL supplement, i mean they can't keep up the charade long can they? the story has been at a stand still for ages, like when does the 13th crusade end?

40k is a setting, not a story.

AhrimansBolter wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

And these are not real Chaos Space Marines fans then. These are FotM fans.

Whoa there. You replied to a general statement with a general statement of your own.

I ONLY play CSM, and I like the codex. But even I admit there are some thing in this codex that seem lazy. Chosen have a non-sensible base point cost, warp talons lack useful special rules, and mutilators seem like they were created by a 5 year old saying "what about obliterators with close-combat weapons!"

Now I make the codex work, and I have success with it. But that does not excuse how many lazy, boring units and rules there are.

Let's not put general statements on "CSM" players (except that we are whiny... I accept that we are whiny).

I ment people who sell their armies to the better supposed better ones are FotM. Sorry no disrespect ment to people who play CSM.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 wolfmerc wrote:
I really hope that they add some new events to the 40k timeline in the BL supplement, i mean they can't keep up the charade long can they? the story has been at a stand still for ages, like when does the 13th crusade end?

War never changes.

I want to see more about the early and mid Black Crusades. More M32-33 and M37-39 stuff.

Same, hoping loads of lore when the codex pops out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 wolfmerc wrote:
I really hope that they add some new events to the 40k timeline in the BL supplement, i mean they can't keep up the charade long can they? the story has been at a stand still for ages, like when does the 13th crusade end?

40k is a setting, not a story.

The setting has a story. Case and point: Black library.