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Ok, so i'm absolutely in love with the Dreamforge Leviathan model. I can easily get away with using it in games of Apoc but thats not good enough for me. I have an idea on how to include it in regular games of 40k but I think i'm reaching. Basically I want to include eldar allies and use the Leviathan as a Wraithknight. They are about the same height with the only difference beiing the much bulkier appearance of the Leviathan. Now as far as I can rekon it, larger was always preferable to smaller in these situations but I've not actually held them side by side. Utilizing the Iyanden codex I would take the Spirit Seer (I think thats the one) as an HQ thus making Wraithguard Troops choices. For the Spirit Seer I would use a Techpriest and for the Wraithguard I'd use the new Forge World Thallax Corhort mini's.

to--->

to--->

And i'm pretty sure we dont need pics for the Spiritseer to Techpriest change. The general idea is that its a Mechanicus contingent undergoing field testing or some-such. I would use these guys with whatever armies I could squeeze them into. Since GW no longer supports/sponsors my FLGS' tournaments I'm pretty sure I could convince the TO's to allow it, but what do you all think?

PS: sorry for using other peoples pics I'm just puting them here for reference

If they are the same sized (and based) then it is fine in my books, as long as it is clear what unit is representing which element of the eldar.

could work, gotta be really clear what the weapons are though.

Also I would use the legio cybernetica rather than straight mechanicus. no need for wierd field testing, just use straight up rock um sock um robotos

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Legio_Cybernetica#.Ud8R0vm1H44

Just so you know, you don't need the Iyanden book to make WG troops, it's in the Eldar Codex.

The Leviathan is much bigger than a Wraithknight. They are planning on making a smaller set of models so the Leviathan will be available in a slightly smaller size.

That said, larger is going to be a disadvantage most of the time so I think this would be an ok Counts-as.

Sounds like an awesome idea!

id have no problem with it, though never a bad idea to mention it to the guy your about to play against just to make sure hes cool with it

You may also want to modify the Leviathan slightly. So it has some sort of jump mechanism, as is that hunk of metal isn't qualifying for jump status.

Why eldar if you are building admech forces?

 Fezman wrote:
Just so you know, you don't need the Iyanden book to make WG troops, it's in the Eldar Codex.

Most excellent! But wait..whats the point of the Iyanden codex then? (dont answer that, i'm just being a jerk) Thanks for the heads up though. As far as the weapons go I think the best setup for the Leviathan/wraithknight would be a Suncannon, scatter laser (two barrels on the left and right of chest), and scattershield. I think that makes it just about 300 poitns which seems appropriate for something that big. Without the codex I'm just going off of bits and peices of info I can dredge from the forums.



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 livanbard wrote:
Why eldar if you are building admech forces?

Because the only thing in 40k that is even remotely the size of the Leviathan is the Wraithknight. It just so hapens that the Thallax cohorts are about the same size and base type as Wraithguard and that Wraithguard can be troops.

 guinness707 wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Just so you know, you don't need the Iyanden book to make WG troops, it's in the Eldar Codex.

Most excellent! But wait..whats the point of the Iyanden codex then? (dont answer that, i'm just being a jerk) Thanks for the heads up though. As far as the weapons go I think the best setup for the Leviathan/wraithknight would be a Suncannon, scatter laser (two barrels on the left and right of chest), and scattershield. I think that makes it just about 300 poitns which seems appropriate for something that big. Without the codex I'm just going off of bits and peices of info I can dredge from the forums.

Well I know it lets you take a Wraithknight as a warlord for one thing, and has some new wargear. Can't help you with much else, sorry!

 Grey Templar wrote:
You may also want to modify the Leviathan slightly. So it has some sort of jump mechanism, as is that hunk of metal isn't qualifying for jump status.

So the jump ability of the wraithknight isnt an upgrade? Hrm...I might just have to not jump him then rather than ruin the model with 'jump-jets'. I guess thats what i'm going to have to pay to use such a good model.

If your opponent agrees to count it as a WK, it's only fair that you get to jump it.

Maybe instead of saying it's a prototype or new design you could say it's something they dug up from the Dark Age of Technology and it has an inbuilt teleporter. Stranger things have happened (in 40K).

Nah, I'm against teleporter/jump stuff for Imperial. Unless they are starting to steal Eldar tech that just doesn't jive with fluff. I guess it could just represent their natural duelists agility and mastery of the suits. By the way if I haven't mentioned it, the Leviathan wont be a robot but rather an Errant-class Knight (which is simply a type of war-machine, not a titan just for the record). Either way, I'm fine with the concession if he balks at the idea of letting me use it. Kind of like having a card up my sleeve to sweeten the deal if he's not going for it at face value you know?

Would be fine by me!

I have to be the lone dissenting opinion and say that it's really pushing it. It doesn't look anything like an Eldar model, and the weapons are completely wrong. I guess a single big model isn't going to be very confusing once you've said what it represents, but I really don't see why it's so important to use non-40k models in 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:
I really don't see why it's so important to use non-40k models in 40k.

Power rangers are arguably less 40k despite being official models ; p

Because the only thing in 40k that is even remotely the size of the Leviathan is the Wraithknight. It just so hapens that the Thallax cohorts are about the same size and base type as Wraithguard and that Wraithguard can be troops.

Now I realize the size of the Wraithknight...

 Peregrine wrote:
I have to be the lone dissenting opinion and say that it's really pushing it. It doesn't look anything like an Eldar model, and the weapons are completely wrong. I guess a single big model isn't going to be very confusing once you've said what it represents, but I really don't see why it's so important to use non-40k models in 40k.

If you are not willing to entertain non-official models you will end up with a company that can hike up prices at will. Every army being built on the same base minatures greatly cuts down on modeling potential. Parts of the background without official minatures would be very hard to represent and armies that get dropped from production would gradually disapear.

Nobody wants to see GW turn into a company that tries to tie you into buying stuff from them only at inflated prices at the cost of model making creativity. Imagine going down to your local GW store and seeing no squat, genestealer cult or lost and the dammed forces being played, I don't think any of us want that.

If that doesn't convince you imagine the worst sculpt GW ever put out (very subjective so you pick one) now imagine the new codex for your army make this not only the must take unit but the most interesting and entertaining unit to game with, do you really want to have to play with a table full of wobbly mcbutterfaces?

I like the idea, and as mentioned the larger size will usually be a disadvantage. So I'd be fine with it. I'd even be fine with the jetpack allowance - you'd have paid the points for it, after all.

The weapons problem is the only niggling point. If the AdMech bits are the only thing "unusual" about the army then I suppose it'd be easier to remember, but you would do well to try and convert the guns so that they at least look like Imperial equivalents of the original Eldar weapons (for instance, the assault-cannon-style-gatling-gun-thing in the picture could only really class as a scatter laser, and even then it's iffy).

 Peregrine wrote:
I have to be the lone dissenting opinion and say that it's really pushing it. It doesn't look anything like an Eldar model, and the weapons are completely wrong. I guess a single big model isn't going to be very confusing once you've said what it represents, but I really don't see why it's so important to use non-40k models in 40k.

He wants to use an Imperial faction to ally with his Imperial Force and wants to use the Leviathan Crusader because he likes the model. Really not that hard to figure out....

I wouldn't have a problem as long as you are clear and consistent about what is what.

Eldar for admech is an unusual choice but I guess the units available to a wraith force fit your theme best.

I guess you would explain your techpriest (spirit seer stand in) suffering perils as some kind of mechanical overload of his upgrades that provide the same effects as spiritseer psychic powers?

Running Eldar as counts as AdMech seems a little wonky though. Why do AdMech unnaturally Fear and Hate Slaanesh? Why does the Techpriest give enemies negatives if they are Tyrannids and using Runes of Battle powers?

Aside from the WK size to match up with the Leviathan, the overall 'toughness' of Wraith units representing mechanical units and the Fearless USR, this just seems like a huge fluff stretch.

I mean I like the idea of running AdMech, I just think out of the Eldar Codex...things don't seem to match up. Tau seem to fit better if only the Riptide were a touch larger(except for the not-Fearless thing).

Thanks to all for the good critique here. I really appreciate it. Bottom line is yeah, I love the leviathan, and yeah, it looks more Imperial to me than the wraithknight looks eldar. I want to address some poitns for clairification though. First, I hadnt thought of the anti-Slannesh thing. Quite frankly I dont care about it as there's not a single Slann player in my Meta and even in our larger tourney's (40+ participants) I've never sen one. That being the case I would simply strike that from my universal rules for simplicity sake.

Weapons: Correct me if i'm wrong here but my chosen weapon would be a Suncannon, whose stats are S:'blah', AP: 'blah', Heavy 3. The only part of that which matered to me is the heavy 3 bit. Just cuz its mulit barreled doesnt mean it has to fire quickly. With a name like Suncannon what if each barrel just got super hot and needed that extra few milliseconds of rotation to cool off so it wouldnt ignite a shell/round in the chamber? Think of it rotating/fireing at the speed of a Civil war hand cranked gatling gun (just about 2 rounds per second). As a stand in for an Errant-class Knight his original weapon would have been a "Knight Battle Cannon" which fired rounds equivilant to normal battle cannon's at a rate of 2 shots per round. Bright lances and scatter lasers and what not need no further explanation though.

Fearless: Why wouldnt a robot be fearless? They are the only things in the universe that would actually "know no fear" its just not in their programing. The Knight (Leviathan) would be fearless for the same reasons that any other fearless unit might also be. Overconfidence in his own superiority.

Psychic Stuff: You know how a sniper rifle wounds on a 4+ all the time? The fluff explains this as toxic darts, corrosive acids, bio-engineered cellular deconstructors, EMP micro-burst's, etc. Thats how I would figure the non-buff powers of the Spirit Seer/Techpriest. You lose a point of toughness? Thats just his superior targeting matrix finding a weakness in the target unit and disseminating that data through the noosphere. My units gain a point of toughness? Thats just a boost to their structural integrity and redundant backup protocols in case of damage. It can all easily be explained away. I liked what someone said about the perils of the warp being an overload on the Techpriests potentia coil so consider that idea stolen.

Why are you using Elsar for Admech? I thought Guard or tau would work much better.

 livanbard wrote:
Why eldar if you are building admech forces?

because admech doesnt have a codex and thus you have to use someting.

necrons, CSM, IG, tau all have options but eldar are about as good as any

 guinness707 wrote:
Nah, I'm against teleporter/jump stuff for Imperial. Unless they are starting to steal Eldar tech that just doesn't jive with fluff. I guess it could just represent their natural duelists agility and mastery of the suits. By the way if I haven't mentioned it, the Leviathan wont be a robot but rather an Errant-class Knight (which is simply a type of war-machine, not a titan just for the record). Either way, I'm fine with the concession if he balks at the idea of letting me use it. Kind of like having a card up my sleeve to sweeten the deal if he's not going for it at face value you know?

The imperium already has teleporters on ships and teleport shunts power armor. See no reason that should be an issue from a fluff stand point.

 Super Ready wrote:
I like the idea, and as mentioned the larger size will usually be a disadvantage. So I'd be fine with it. I'd even be fine with the jetpack allowance - you'd have paid the points for it, after all.

The weapons problem is the only niggling point. If the AdMech bits are the only thing "unusual" about the army then I suppose it'd be easier to remember, but you would do well to try and convert the guns so that they at least look like Imperial equivalents of the original Eldar weapons (for instance, the assault-cannon-style-gatling-gun-thing in the picture could only really class as a scatter laser, and even then it's iffy).

I thought the Leviathan was actually smaller. Doesn't it stand at 8.5" tall compared to the Wraithknikghts 9" in height. Granted it is a lot bulkier.

 redkeyboard wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I like the idea, and as mentioned the larger size will usually be a disadvantage. So I'd be fine with it. I'd even be fine with the jetpack allowance - you'd have paid the points for it, after all.

The weapons problem is the only niggling point. If the AdMech bits are the only thing "unusual" about the army then I suppose it'd be easier to remember, but you would do well to try and convert the guns so that they at least look like Imperial equivalents of the original Eldar weapons (for instance, the assault-cannon-style-gatling-gun-thing in the picture could only really class as a scatter laser, and even then it's iffy).

I thought the Leviathan was actually smaller. Doesn't it stand at 8.5" tall compared to the Wraithknikghts 9" in height. Granted it is a lot bulkier.

No, its closer to Warhound Titans in size.

Note there is a second scale that Dreamforge is going to make stuff in sometime in the near future. That Leviathan may indeed be closer to the proper size.

The smaller scale Leviathan is indeed, on the way. I'm hoping they are Dreadknight sized.