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-=Title Edited - The original title was unnecessarily inflammatory - Lorek=-

So I tried getting some custom dice done with the Alaitoc symbol as the 6 and after a few emails back and forth I get this:

> Hello again,
>
> Are these designs from Games Workshop? We were contacted early in the
> year by a lawyer representing Games Workshop and were warned against
> using their designs for our custom work. It looks like that design is
> for an Eldar faction from Warhammer 40k. Is this the case?
>
> Joseph Kogin
> Chessex Manufacturing


I'm just waiting for GW to go after tattoo artists now at this rate.

A few people have posted about dice companies not cutting dice with GW's designs which is fair enough as far as I am concerned.

A sword through a rune is generic enough. I can't imagine they're going to be able to capture so much detail that it would look like anything more than the basic outline of the symbol.

I'm not seeing the problem here. GW have every right to stop unlicensed third parties from using their artwork.

I'm gonna side with GW on this one. It's a pretty specific symbol, and it's definitely their IP.

It sucks for us as consumers, but this is pretty run of the mill stuff, not unusually dickish.

Just in case Chessex are just covering their own base, you could always try saying "no, they are not GW symbols". I think GW IP lawyering gets a tad more difficult when Chessex can say "we contacted the customer about the matter and were assured they were not GW copyright - as we cannot check every copyright ourselves, you need to ask the customer about further details."

Yeah it's a bit difficult situation, when thinking about the copyright law. Technically, you are allowed to produce copies for personal use, but not for sale. The Chessex produces the dice for you, but it's a custom order for personal use, and the image is supplied by you. The copyright holder HAS the only right to make copies, but then again, there are some "fair use" clauses that state that the manufactured copy must have reasonable commercial value - and that value rests in the ability to commercially sell the product. Hence, a custom copy that cannot be publicly sold (cannot due to the right of first sale by the copyright owner) can be argued to have little value and be "fair use / personal use", etc...

I would agree with prowla-- its a legal out.

Tell Chessex its an "artists rendition" of an Astrological sign.

Gw can take a flying leap...trademark symbols that have been around since cavemen were drawing on walls...pff!

dere wrote:A sword through a rune is generic enough I can't imagine they're going to be able to capture so much detail that it would look like anything more than the basic outline of the symbol.

It is specific enough when it is a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, regardless of scale.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
It is specific enough when it is a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, regardless of scale.

It's not a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, the rune itself is little more than a sword crossing a crescent moon. And if GW thinks they can trademark a 500 year old religious symbol, they're insane.

If you had asked them to print a warmachine or a Dystopian wars emblem on the dice you would have gotten the same email with GW replaced with Privateer press or Spartan Games.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

dere wrote:A sword through a rune is generic enough. I can't imagine they're going to be able to capture so much detail that it would look like anything more than the basic outline of the symbol.

It is specific enough when it is a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, regardless of scale.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that they should copy it directly, I'm saying that it's a such a generic concept that if they won't reproduce the art he provided directly, small changes are all that would be needed. You can't really say that a sword piercing the moon is a symbol unique to GW.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
It is specific enough when it is a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, regardless of scale.

It's not a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, the rune itself is little more than a sword crossing a crescent moon. And if GW thinks they can trademark a 500 year old religious symbol, they're insane.

However the specific design he asked the dice people to use is one produced by gw. You seem to be suggesting that i should be able to use coca cola's logo however I want since it is just writing - after all that has been around for thousands of years!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 derek wrote:


You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that they should copy it directly, I'm saying that it's a such a generic concept that if they won't reproduce the art he provided directly, small changes are all that would be needed. You can't really say that a sword piercing the moon is a symbol unique to GW.

A sword through a moon/rune can be generic, certainly but will be costly to back if gw challanges. Especially if the company has used thei ip in the past and especially if they have been given previous warning over infringement. Being smart assed to skirt on these kinds of issues is begging for trouble.

And given the op apparently asked the dice company to use the gw image there is nothing wrong with the reply given.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
It is specific enough when it is a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, regardless of scale.

It's not a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, the rune itself is little more than a sword crossing a crescent moon. And if GW thinks they can trademark a 500 year old religious symbol, they're insane.

However the specific design he asked the dice people to use is one produced by gw. You seem to be suggesting that i should be able to use coca cola's logo however I want since it is just writing - after all that has been around for thousands of years!

No, I am suggesting that GW has no right to tell you you're not allowed to put a crucifix on your dice.

It's also not impossible that GW would go after an individual that acted like this IF Chessex believed them and made the dice

Even if in the end the case collapsed (like some of the cases the music industry brought against individuals) it would be enough to ruin your life

 AlexHolker wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
It is specific enough when it is a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, regardless of scale.

It's not a sword through the rune for an Eldar craftworld, the rune itself is little more than a sword crossing a crescent moon. And if GW thinks they can trademark a 500 year old religious symbol, they're insane.

However the specific design he asked the dice people to use is one produced by gw. You seem to be suggesting that i should be able to use coca cola's logo however I want since it is just writing - after all that has been around for thousands of years!

No, I am suggesting that GW has no right to tell you you're not allowed to put a crucifix on your dice.

You are right, they dont have the right to tell you you cant put a design they dont own the ip on your dice. However they can certainly tell you to not put a design they do own on your dice and i would understand if they were not happy if you put something that is clearly meant to be one of their designs on your dice...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
You are right, they dont have the right to tell you you cant put a design they dont own the ip on your dice. However they can certainly tell you to not put a design they do own on your dice and i would understand if they were not happy if you put something that is clearly meant to be one of their designs on your dice...

They do not own this design. They got their asses kicked just trying to steal the phrase "Space Marine". Can you imagine what would happen if they tried to rob a religion with 26 million followers? There wouldn't be enough left of them to fill a thimble.

Well this is new, I know many veteran players who use custom dice with GW symbols.

This pretty much destroyed my plans for eldar dice.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
You are right, they dont have the right to tell you you cant put a design they dont own the ip on your dice. However they can certainly tell you to not put a design they do own on your dice and i would understand if they were not happy if you put something that is clearly meant to be one of their designs on your dice...

They do not own this design. They got their asses kicked just trying to steal the phrase "Space Marine". Can you imagine what would happen if they tried to rob a religion with 26 million followers? There wouldn't be enough left of them to fill a thimble.

Im not sure which religion has an eldar craftworld symbol for their symbol but that might be a religion i could get into...

But since you apparently cant grasp how ip works and i am on my phone im not going to spell it out for you any further than i already have.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
You are right, they dont have the right to tell you you cant put a design they dont own the ip on your dice. However they can certainly tell you to not put a design they do own on your dice and i would understand if they were not happy if you put something that is clearly meant to be one of their designs on your dice...

They do not own this design. They got their asses kicked just trying to steal the phrase "Space Marine". Can you imagine what would happen if they tried to rob a religion with 26 million followers? There wouldn't be enough left of them to fill a thimble.

You evidently don't understand how IP law works. Just saying.

 MRPYM wrote:
Well this is new, I know many veteran players who use custom dice with GW symbols.

This pretty much destroyed my plans for eldar dice.

Yeah, this has only been going on for a few months. You can always get a blank face dice, or onr with part of the design cut in the engrave the rest yourself.

My own craftworld icon could probably not be recognised if you took out just one line on it, which would be easy to engrave.

I can't blame GW for it, or at the very least Chessex for wanting to play it as safely as possible. Dice with a skull, omega, or star on them are generic enough, but once you start getting to GW's iconography that can get legally murky. Even if Chessex were to win that court case, that's a lot of time, money, and drama they don't want to deal with, so it's best to avoid it altogether.

I think we should ask ourselves, why now?

For quite a few years GW knew about the custom dice but in the past never did anything about it.

100% of 'custom design printing' shops for everything from tee-shirts to birthday cakes always ask: "Do you own the copyrights to this art you are reproducing?" Chessex is just giving themselves an out and will be able to testify against you, the lying customer should they make the product and GW pursues them.

GW was proactive and said "Hey, don't reproduce our artwork on your dice." so Chessex is 'aware' when they see things which look GW.

Trying to claim the Alaitoc symbol is generic is ignorant and trying to say the 'autobots' symbol is a generic tribal face.

There is nothing to see here. If a vendor senses something is copyrighted, they are smart to pass on your business.

 Polonius wrote:
I'm gonna side with GW on this one. It's a pretty specific symbol, and it's definitely their IP.

It sucks for us as consumers, but this is pretty run of the mill stuff, not unusually dickish.

That's the thing though, a lot of GWs "symbols" are straight up stolen from other sources and claimed as their own. And really when it comes to custom art, murals, tattoos or airbrushing its always been a non issue for 99% of companies, I don't see Disney suing every artist that painted Mickey Mouse on something for a couple bucks. Its dickish to me because its just another case of GW attacking smaller fish because it can probably win.

For example according to GW they own the chemical symbol for Sulfur and a few other of these "eldar symbols":

And in context they do. That's what you're not understanding about copyrights/trademarks. The context they're used in is absolutely relevant - and in fact is pretty much the deciding factor.

rigeld2 wrote:
And in context they do. That's what you're not understanding about copyrights/trademarks. The context they're used in is absolutely relevant - and in fact is pretty much the deciding factor.

See, what you're not understanding though is that the symbol is stolen from something else to begin with and they are claiming it as their own, which makes it fair game.

 MRPYM wrote:
I think we should ask ourselves, why now?

For quite a few years GW knew about the custom dice but in the past never did anything about it.

Hence the thread, I've seen dozens of people with custom dice with GWs symbols for years, why the problem now? Other then to say "we have a legal team!!!1!1"

And really who is the loser that reports this stuff to GW?

Were they chessex dice though?

Also what wargames have GW stolen these symbols from?

If you really are that intent on having Eldar dice, find another less scrupulous company and get on with your life.

 notprop wrote:
Were they chessex dice though?

Also what wargames have GW stolen these symbols from?

If you really are that intent on having Eldar dice, find another less scrupulous company and get on with your life.

I asked the guys where they got their dice and they all say chessex.

All the custom dice Ive seen have been through chessex, its actually where I got the idea from in the first place.

And GW haven't stolen the images from other wargames, but rather from religious, scientific and historical writings.

For example, GW went after chapter house for using the Omega symbol, upside down or not, nobody owns it.

In the case of copyright/trademark images it comes down to the artistic rights to the image. You can slightly change the image but as long as it holds enough likeness to the original it is a infringement on the copyright/trademark. You can claim a image has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years but as long as someone or a company can claim artistic rights to it, then in all intent and purpose they hold legal rights to it.

Chessex is a company that has been around long enough to understand this, and they don't want to deal with any legal ramifications from Games Workshop Yes it could turn the way of Chapter House v. Games Workshop and become a overall loss to Games Workshop (which also opened up what can and can't be used.) Yes some images will be harder for them to produce but if you are looking to produce the Blood Drop for your Blood Angels there is nothing Games Workshop can do about it.

Just in case anyone was wandering about the tattoo part of it all, no they can't control that because as a tattoo artist you can always claim that you are charging for the time and not the image.