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 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

All Tyranid MC's need price drops aside from the Tervigon. They're all just too expensive for what they do.

As I said before, I'd be pretty happy with Tyranid MC's staying as effective as they are, but getting a lot cheaper. Instead of 1 Carnifex like now, you get a brood. Instead of 1 Trygon, Mawloc or Tyrannofex, you get a pair. The old Tyranid method of 'send more bodies'. The idea of making Tyranid MC's super powerful doesn't fit the fluff. They're meant to be powerfulm, but they generally are already, just too expensive. They're meant to also be numerous, which significant price drops would enable.

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

As for eternal warrior - yes the tyranids re-digest all biomatter including their own, but the fact remains that to perform in a combat environment efficiently, the ground troops need to be *tough* and *resilient* enough to wade through enemy fire and get into combat. That is what the eternal warrior rule would represent - much as it did in the 4th ed book, it would simply allow synapse creatures to be protected from weapons double their toughness. Force weapons, remove from play effects, etc would still work on them.

I'm currently hoarding warriors, as they're not very good in the current meta. Given the cyclical nature of codices, and the fact that 3 of these things retail for $47, i'm going on the assumption that they WILL be better in some form in a new updated book. Whether it be due to the eternal warrior rules hinted at (basically Instant Death would cause D3 wounds instead), or getting T5 standard (making a tyranid prime T6) something will probably be done to make them better. At least, i hope, or i'm goign to have about 30 useless warriors for ANOTHER 4+ years LOL

The majority of your army is not getting Eternal Warrior. There's a reason why Daemons lost theirs.

Synapse creatures have never been the "majority" of the army. If Synapse critters do get EW, I have no doubt Warriors will go back to being elites instead of troops again.

Highly unlikely...especially if bugs keep access to eternal warrior through iron arm anyways.

Running multiwound T4 is more about target saturation than general survivability...fill the field with T6 3+ creatures and various T4 3+ or worse save creatures...and laugh as your opponent cant handle them all.

I have a particularly mean list with 18 raveners and 9 shrikes that wrecks some serious face,

 ductvader wrote:
Highly unlikely...especially if bugs keep access to eternal warrior through iron arm anyways.

Running multiwound T4 is more about target saturation than general survivability...fill the field with T6 3+ creatures and various T4 3+ or worse save creatures...and laugh as your opponent cant handle them all.

I have a particularly mean list with 18 raveners and 9 shrikes that wrecks some serious face,

I agree that T4 non-EW warriors wouldn't be too bad if they were cheaper by at least 10 points or so.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Highly unlikely...especially if bugs keep access to eternal warrior through iron arm anyways.

Running multiwound T4 is more about target saturation than general survivability...fill the field with T6 3+ creatures and various T4 3+ or worse save creatures...and laugh as your opponent cant handle them all.

I have a particularly mean list with 18 raveners and 9 shrikes that wrecks some serious face,

I agree that T4 non-EW warriors wouldn't be too bad if they were cheaper by at least 10 points or so.

Or a few points cheaper, with 3+/4+ saves for Warriors/Shrikes so that they're less susceptible to massed anti-infantry fire. The main issue with warriors isn't so much the ID thing alone, it's that after upgrades you have what is usually a 40-45pt model that loses a wound to every ~4 bolter hits on average, compared to ~6 hits for MEQs. When you couple that with krak missiles and the like removing 3 wounds from the unit per hit (1 for MEQs), it gets pretty hard to keep this expensive unit alive.

 xttz wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Highly unlikely...especially if bugs keep access to eternal warrior through iron arm anyways.

Running multiwound T4 is more about target saturation than general survivability...fill the field with T6 3+ creatures and various T4 3+ or worse save creatures...and laugh as your opponent cant handle them all.

I have a particularly mean list with 18 raveners and 9 shrikes that wrecks some serious face,

I agree that T4 non-EW warriors wouldn't be too bad if they were cheaper by at least 10 points or so.

Or a few points cheaper, with 3+/4+ saves for Warriors/Shrikes so that they're less susceptible to massed anti-infantry fire. The main issue with warriors isn't so much the ID thing alone, it's that after upgrades you have what is usually a 40-45pt model that loses a wound to every ~4 bolter hits on average, compared to ~6 hits for MEQs. When you couple that with krak missiles and the like removing 3 wounds from the unit per hit (1 for MEQs), it gets pretty hard to keep this expensive unit alive.

I agree to this some what. I personally still run warriors in almost every army build. My friends curse at their many wounds and they can be kitted to fit many battle field roles. But yes unless you're just running a basic warrior their cost gets up there. I think a slightly lower cost would be good but frankly I think they're a great unit already

 -Loki- wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

All Tyranid MC's need price drops aside from the Tervigon. They're all just too expensive for what they do.

That's what I'm saying. Carnifexes would probably be better off if they were something like 80-90 points a pop, and that's probably being generous. Trygons be like 160 and Tyrannofexes around 200.

 Wilytank wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

All Tyranid MC's need price drops aside from the Tervigon. They're all just too expensive for what they do.

That's what I'm saying. Carnifexes would probably be better off if they were something like 80-90 points a pop, and that's probably being generous. Trygons be like 160 and Tyrannofexes around 200.

Agree with all those point values. Hive Tyrants can stay the price they are, BUT, they need to be on par with the new Daemon Prince in terms of stats (WS 9, I8, etc.)

Buhhhhhhh...720 points...I'll take 9 fexes in 1000 points.

Add a Prime and 40 gants

Anyone else think you should able to take like 2 or 3 Tyranid Primes for every HQ slot, kinda like Daemon Heralds?

Yes. That'd be great... I would like it if they could deploy separately, as well.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

All Tyranid MC's need price drops aside from the Tervigon. They're all just too expensive for what they do.

That's what I'm saying. Carnifexes would probably be better off if they were something like 80-90 points a pop, and that's probably being generous. Trygons be like 160 and Tyrannofexes around 200.

Agree with all those point values. Hive Tyrants can stay the price they are, BUT, they need to be on par with the new Daemon Prince in terms of stats (WS 9, I8, etc.)

That's a bit low for Carnifexes. Honestly I'd go 100-110, with Armoured Shell as an option at +20. A 50-60pt drop would be golden for Carnifexes.

As for Hive Tyrants - they're fine even compared to Daemon Princes. A Daemon Prince with power armour (to match the 3+ of the Tyrant) is 5 points more than the Tyrant. While it has better BS, WS, I and A, the Tyrant comes standard with Mastery Level 1 and 2 Psychic powers and has 1 better Toughness. A Daemon prince needs to pay 25pts for Mastery Level 1, and only gets 1 power, needing 50pts to get ML 2 and 2 powers. At that point, it's much more expensive than the Tyrant. Add to that the Tyrant, right now, comes standard with a Bonesword and Lashwhip, making all enemies in B2B I1 and instant killing with each hit if enemies fail a Ld check, and the Tyrant stacks quite favorably to the Daemon Prince.

The only thing I'd say the Tyrant needs comparatively to the Daemon prince is cheaper Wings (drop to the Daemon Prince cost) and Armoured Shell (10pts off would be good). Maybe even allow you to combine them if you want to spend that much on your Tyrant.

Nope Nope Nope...most AA weaponry in this game is AP4 or worse...allowing the beast a 2+ and wings make him nearly invulnerable for not as many points as he needs to be. I think that's something that needs to stay an either or option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yeas...overall I think tyrants are costed pretty perfecctly. The upgrades could lose some points too...especially wings and regeneration...I actually think the 2+ should stay at 35-40 for going on a badass beast with T6 and 4 wounds.

Fair point on AA weapons being AP4, but that's not really how you deal with FMCs. You gound them, then hit them with everything, since you can't count on a lucky 1 hit kill while it's swooping.

And in that case, it's in a worse position than a Tyrant with Armoured Shell, because it's likely down in enemy lines, getting hit with everything they have, then likely eating a followup assault. Armoured Shell wouldn't be too bad on a Flyrant.

Something funny that just popped into my head; Moving, charging, and assaulting Spore Pods.

I hope the Carnifex broods get a rule similar to the new Steelcrusher rule for the Hierodule Swarms.

How's that work?

 ductvader wrote:
How's that work?

At the minute it is, when ever the formation charges a super heavy or walker, roll on the chart, and +1 to the result per model in the formation.

(paraphrasing the rules here)

So roll a D6

1 - No effect, begin the fight sub phase.

2-5 - Staggering Impact - The Vehicle being charge recieves a penetrating hit, resolve the hit, then begin the fight sub-phase.

6 - Thunderous Impact - Causes D3+1 glances, plus some other apoc stuff etc.

freaking nuts...that would sell the fexes that nobody bought last time around...besides the ones that were converted to tervigons



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just really want carnifexes to have rampage...they're the perfect unit for it

Or for living battering ram to actually hit vehicles backward after assault

The only trouble with a similar rule in regular 40k is that charging more than 1 Fex into a non-superheavy is basically overkill. They already get an S9 Hammer of Wrath hit before any regular attacks land.

I wouldn't be surprised if Living Battering Ram just made their HoW attack S10 instead, giving them a bit more of an edge against AV14.

Oh...I like it...or rending to represent the crushing force...its one attack so its not ridiculously good...but its still there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All right guys...lets put the codex together and send it to GW...then we'll demand money...good plan?

I'll take the FAST section.

 ductvader wrote:
Oh...I like it...or rending to represent the crushing force...its one attack so its not ridiculously good...but its still there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All right guys...lets put the codex together and send it to GW...then we'll demand money...good plan?

I'll take the FAST section.

I like this idea. I like it a lot

 Hyrule Hero wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Oh...I like it...or rending to represent the crushing force...its one attack so its not ridiculously good...but its still there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All right guys...lets put the codex together and send it to GW...then we'll demand money...good plan?

I'll take the FAST section.

I like this idea. I like it a lot

Unfortunately, GW has a horrid reputation for throwing good ideas out of the window because"their development team has it under control"

Eldercaveman wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
How's that work?

At the minute it is, when ever the formation charges a super heavy or walker, roll on the chart, and +1 to the result per model in the formation.

(paraphrasing the rules here)

So roll a D6

1 - No effect, begin the fight sub phase.

2-5 - Staggering Impact - The Vehicle being charge recieves a penetrating hit, resolve the hit, then begin the fight sub-phase.

6 - Thunderous Impact - Causes D3+1 glances, plus some other apoc stuff etc.

So...without breaking any rules on dakka, would you happen to know how the malanthrope broods have changed?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
How's that work?

At the minute it is, when ever the formation charges a super heavy or walker, roll on the chart, and +1 to the result per model in the formation.

(paraphrasing the rules here)

So roll a D6

1 - No effect, begin the fight sub phase.

2-5 - Staggering Impact - The Vehicle being charge recieves a penetrating hit, resolve the hit, then begin the fight sub-phase.

6 - Thunderous Impact - Causes D3+1 glances, plus some other apoc stuff etc.

So...without breaking any rules on dakka, would you happen to know how the malanthrope broods have changed?

No. I didn't get this through any crazy rumours or anything like that, I simply zoomed in and read it. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_APOCALYPSE.html

Granted, I do have really good eyes.

The changes to the Bio-titan look awesome as well!

Good find!

 ductvader wrote:
Good find!

Bio Titan gets skyfire option and a transport capacity of 20 models. And it doesn't state any limits on what models these are!

And they can assault that turn?

If so...triple screamerfex action ensues...

 -Loki- wrote:
The Swarmlord does not need a buff at all. if you're finding he's vulnerable to incoming ranged fire, he has an option - take Tyrant Guard.

As he is, he's a fantastic army buffer via psychic powers and innate abilities like handing out furious charge and boosting the reliability of reserves, on top of being a Hive Tyrant with a 4++ assault save that hands out instant death attacks for gaks and giggles, making him not only the best batstick in the game, but a fantastic support character.

Everything needs a weakness. His isn't assault - the only unit capable of semi reliably beating him is an MSS Necron Lord, and if the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm, it takes 3 consecutive turns to beat himself to death (which is hugely unlikely). It's not at support - he hands out plenty of bonuses. It's not as a psyker, considering he's a mastery level 2 model (which will probably go up in the next book).

His weakness is range. If you want to kill him, shoot him. If you want to protect him from that, pay for Tyrant Guard.

I'm sure you are correct about this, i haven't ran swarmlord yet as i'm a newer player. I've built up two tyrant guard and am finishing the swarmlord. I guess the frustration is my friends hq's and even elites seem to have better saves at a cheaper price. I watched a battle report from mwg the other day where they put the swarm lord up front and he was focused down in one or two turns, him and his guard that is. I'm set on using him, regardless of the fact that this edition doesn't seem to favor cc and want every buff they will give me to get him to into that combat. Of course once he is engaged, given his ws, toughness, iron arm and invul ...... well im sure he will do very well.

 Rotary wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
The Swarmlord does not need a buff at all. if you're finding he's vulnerable to incoming ranged fire, he has an option - take Tyrant Guard.

As he is, he's a fantastic army buffer via psychic powers and innate abilities like handing out furious charge and boosting the reliability of reserves, on top of being a Hive Tyrant with a 4++ assault save that hands out instant death attacks for gaks and giggles, making him not only the best batstick in the game, but a fantastic support character.

Everything needs a weakness. His isn't assault - the only unit capable of semi reliably beating him is an MSS Necron Lord, and if the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm, it takes 3 consecutive turns to beat himself to death (which is hugely unlikely). It's not at support - he hands out plenty of bonuses. It's not as a psyker, considering he's a mastery level 2 model (which will probably go up in the next book).

His weakness is range. If you want to kill him, shoot him. If you want to protect him from that, pay for Tyrant Guard.

I'm sure you are correct about this, i haven't ran swarmlord yet as i'm a newer player. I've built up two tyrant guard and am finishing the swarmlord. I guess the frustration is my friends hq's and even elites seem to have better saves at a cheaper price. I watched a battle report from mwg the other day where they put the swarm lord up front and he was focused down in one or two turns, him and his guard that is. I'm set on using him, regardless of the fact that this edition doesn't seem to favor cc and want every buff they will give me to get him to into that combat. Of course once he is engaged, given his ws, toughness, iron arm and invul ...... well im sure he will do very well.

When the time comes and you do run him you'll love it! Yes this edition doesn't favor CC as much but i haven't found that to be a problem with ol' Swarmy. Just be sure to give him some guard and you're laughin'