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Diablix wrote:
I do not agree with most (if not all) of you.
Chosens are not useless, maybe just a bit overpriced (17pts/model probably would have been better).

Take a regular CSM, add a close combat weapon (already included with Chosens) and it becomes 15 pts.
Chosens costs 3 points more, but offer:

One additional close combat attack

One additional poin in leadership

The POSSIBILITY to add up to 5 special weapons (with a mix of range/cc)

I'm the first to say that the additional point in leadership is almost always useless (CSM champion already provide that level of leadership, not mentioning there are plentiful of ways to make them fearless). That's why they should cost 17, in my opinion. However, even withouth buying weapons, you are paying three points more, but you get one additional close combat attack (that means 3 normally, 4 if charging or 5 if charging with MoK.. not that bad).

The fact that you can buy all that special weapons... does not FORCE you to do that. It's all that weapons that make them extremely overpriced. Yes, if you get 5 plasmas you pay 75 more. But you are getting 5 plasmas... if you don't want that many, just avoid buying them!


That said, I'm the first to say that they are surely poorly designed. Add an additional 2pt upgrade (like a sort of daemonic gift) to CSM that gives them 2 base CC attacks and then Chosens become completely meaningless... That is quite explanatory, I believe.
I believe that some special rule (like infiltrate/scout) or gift (like a 5+ invulnerable save) at least would have given them a real meaning

Yeah. They are so close to being an awesome unit. So close. :(

Chosen are awesome, until you look at the price.

kissmymom wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
If you want to run special weapon dudes, take those chosen and run them as special weapon havocs. Same thing, but cheaper.

I do agree that looking through the codex, it's tough to find a place for chosen. You could use them as lightning claw carriers, but warp talons do that for much cheaper (and much better). You could use them as a means of delivering plasma or meltaguns, but once again, havocs. You could give them a power weapon, but it's cheaper to take terminators, who also get a ++ and 2+, and deepstrike.

As best I can tell, the only terribly serious use for chosen is a cheap flamer unit. Unlike terminators, they can run in a rhino, while unlike warp talons they have guns, and unlike havocs, they don't waste a HS slot on a couple of flamers. Of course, the main problem wiht this is that you should have absolutely no need whatever for a unit like this in a CSM army, that already has anti-infantry oozing out every pore.

Otherwise, the best thing you can probably do with them is to use the models as aspiring champions in your other squads or to turn them into HQ choices.

It really is all about slot competition. The HS slot is pretty crowded for CSM. Elites are not. Abby makes them troops, but that might not be all that useful, as you arent going to spam chosen and their (damage output) / surviability is pretty low, so they might not last long enough to score.

I beg to differ. Yes they die regularly. But the damage output is significantly higher(in my experience) if you kit them out with 4 special weapons. and often become my opponent's target priority.

Survivability wise. yeah I agree. cost heaps more and die like regular marines. But hey. at least they are taking the heat off othere things.

ANYWAY. POINT IS. THE LIGHTNING CLAW IS STILL USELESS. with that kind of points I am better off with warp talons.

inverted my fraction sorry

what i mean is that your opponenet is unlikely to let a unit like chosen live very long, becasue they are relatively easy to kill but will do a lot of damage if left alive.

welshhoppo wrote:
Chosen are awesome, until you look at the price.

Diablix just explained why are they so expensive. And I agree with him.

I think their problem is wanting to fulfil too many roles at once.

Being able to wield 5 special weapons. It is pretty obvious that they are kitted out for move, shoot and capture objective.

Having that 2 attacks doesn't hurt. But hey. I'd rather pay less and let my chosen just do 1 job rather than trying to fulfil so many roles at once.

But having said all that. I still run them. When I bring big bad abby. They become troops. And yeah can take on pretty much most of the stuff on the table(excluding MC and termies I guess)

What can say. I guess GW really missed the mark with this unit. So beautiful yet. :( some sort of invul save would have been decent. Or even inflitrate.

Diablix wrote:Chosens costs 3 points more, but offer:

One additional close combat attack

One additional poin in leadership

The POSSIBILITY to add up to 5 special weapons (with a mix of range/cc)

Take regular CSM with the CCW, and then add Vets and MoK.

You have something that's the same price, but gains hatred: space marines, can take effectively 3 special weapons, and score. Moreover, take havocs with +CCW, vets, and MoK, and you have the same unit as chosen, but they can take heavy or special weapons (and flakk missiles, not that that's all that important).

Or you could take terminators, which also get 2A base, can take all that snazziness, and come with a 2+, a 5++, deepstrike, cheaper melee weapons, and more special weapons slots.

Losing infiltrate was the real nail in the coffin I think. I can't believe they made that change.

 Ailaros wrote:

Diablix wrote:Chosens costs 3 points more, but offer:

One additional close combat attack

One additional poin in leadership

The POSSIBILITY to add up to 5 special weapons (with a mix of range/cc)

Take regular CSM with the CCW, and then add Vets and MoK.

You have something that's the same price, but gains hatred: space marines, can take effectively 3 special weapons, and score. Moreover, take havocs with +CCW, vets, and MoK, and you have the same unit as chosen, but they can take heavy or special weapons (and flakk missiles, not that that's all that important).

Or you could take terminators, which also get 2A base, can take all that snazziness, and come with a 2+, a 5++, deepstrike, cheaper melee weapons, and more special weapons slots.

MoK doesnt give you those attacks if the enemy has defensive grenades or in successive rounds of combat.
MoK limits you from taking MoN or MoS which chosen can to become more surviable
CSM can only take 2 special weapons, and they need to be 10 strong to do so.
Havocs can only take 4 special weapons, not 5

 Ailaros wrote:

Diablix wrote:Chosens costs 3 points more, but offer:

One additional close combat attack

One additional poin in leadership

The POSSIBILITY to add up to 5 special weapons (with a mix of range/cc)

Take regular CSM with the CCW, and then add Vets and MoK.

You have something that's the same price, but gains hatred: space marines, can take effectively 3 special weapons, and score. Moreover, take havocs with +CCW, vets, and MoK, and you have the same unit as chosen, but they can take heavy or special weapons (and flakk missiles, not that that's all that important).

Or you could take terminators, which also get 2A base, can take all that snazziness, and come with a 2+, a 5++, deepstrike, cheaper melee weapons, and more special weapons slots.

This is not completely true (see Exergy's post).
I never said they are wonderful, I just said they are not useless.

However you are right saying that the true problem with them is that, for almost every role you can find for them, there's already a good CSM unit able to fullfill that role.
They do really miss something that gives them a definite role in an army.

That said, they are still a viable, yet expensive, way to provide a deadly close combat deathstar, especially if you attach them to Abaddon and deliver them with a Land Raider. Extremely pricey, yes, but nearly impossible to stop if they manage to reach close combat

I miss last edition with my rhino full of plasma chosen taking down MCs left and right. Rhinos are so fragile and chosen are so expensive

Imagine if chosen were like wolf guard and they could be deployed into other squads...

The codex we have is great at making themed lists... there just not very strong in competitive play...
Black legion- Abby + termies + chosen +defilers
Iron Warriors- warpsmiths + mauler/forge fiends + oblits(pity they look so crap- use the old Parmour boddies)
NIght lords- I guess thats why warp talons are in there and you can make a pretty cool Cruz with a wing lord model as night lord (pay for mok and aobf choppie and crazy- totes Konrad).
Death guard- plague marines, typhus zombies, oblities, spawn
Actually its pretty easy to make a themed list really: even World Eaters: juggerlord/zerker/pred spam

If you were gonna supplement the csm codex dont develop black legion (we dont want to be restricted into abaddon lists) youd take alpha legion and make interesting themed rules for deployment ect. Or world bearers and have cool cultist rules and mixxed squads Chosen mixxed into cultist squads gogo?!

Rant over

Alpha legion would be an awesome choice. Perhaps adding auxiliaries in other words PDF troops gone evil. Maybe even spy type models. Like Marbo or an assasin but less special and more sacrificial, fitting in with the alpha legions use of special agents. And lots of infiltrating and outflanking units.

Why not use the close combat chosen as sergeants in basic khorne marked CSM squads since the sergeants have to challenge anyways?

Nightwolf829 wrote:
Why not use the close combat chosen as sergeants in basic khorne marked CSM squads since the sergeants have to challenge anyways?

Er. It might work. But its not legal I guess? you cant have a pair of lightning claws on a regular champion.

kissmymom wrote:

Nightwolf829 wrote:
Why not use the close combat chosen as sergeants in basic khorne marked CSM squads since the sergeants have to challenge anyways?

Er. It might work. But its not legal I guess? you cant have a pair of lightning claws on a regular champion.

you can, but it costs a ton

5 Chosen compared to 5 CSM's or 5 Cult Troops actually compare pretty favorably since the Chosen get a stealth discount of not having to pay 10 extra points for their champion, especially if you're going to take Abby as your general. They can also take a Heavy Weapon at 5 men, making them cheaper than 5 man Noise Marine squads with Blastmasters. Chosen's base 2 attacks with Bolters, BP/CCW's and base LD9 mean that you don't have to pour as many points of upgrades into them if you don't want to.

Then of course, you can also just go max special weapons if you want, that's their flexibility.

 Exergy wrote:

kissmymom wrote:

Nightwolf829 wrote:
Why not use the close combat chosen as sergeants in basic khorne marked CSM squads since the sergeants have to challenge anyways?

Er. It might work. But its not legal I guess? you cant have a pair of lightning claws on a regular champion.

you can, but it costs a ton

I think its legal to give the champion 1 single lightning claw. But not A PAIR?

I can't imagine why Chosen aren't WS5/BS5.

As it stands there's about zero point in taking them when Terminators exist in the same slot. Very poorly designed unit.


I don't see anything wrong with the models being what they are though, that's just whatever looks good. Who knows maybe next edition those lightning claws will be overpowered.

kissmymom wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

kissmymom wrote:

Nightwolf829 wrote:
Why not use the close combat chosen as sergeants in basic khorne marked CSM squads since the sergeants have to challenge anyways?

Er. It might work. But its not legal I guess? you cant have a pair of lightning claws on a regular champion.

you can, but it costs a ton

I think its legal to give the champion 1 single lightning claw. But not A PAIR?

You have 2 weapons, a bolt pistol and a CCW. You replace the bolt pistol with a single claw, then you replace the CCW with a single claw. You now have 2 claws. 30 points in total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whitedragon wrote:
5 Chosen compared to 5 CSM's or 5 Cult Troops actually compare pretty favorably since the Chosen get a stealth discount of not having to pay 10 extra points for their champion, especially if you're going to take Abby as your general. They can also take a Heavy Weapon at 5 men, making them cheaper than 5 man Noise Marine squads with Blastmasters. Chosen's base 2 attacks with Bolters, BP/CCW's and base LD9 mean that you don't have to pour as many points of upgrades into them if you don't want to.

Then of course, you can also just go max special weapons if you want, that's their flexibility.

Plague Marines are the only unit that doesnt have to pay the 10 points. The 10 points is actually for +1 attack not for being a character. Chosen Champions dont get +1 attack.

 Exergy wrote:

kissmymom wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

kissmymom wrote:

Nightwolf829 wrote:
Why not use the close combat chosen as sergeants in basic khorne marked CSM squads since the sergeants have to challenge anyways?

Er. It might work. But its not legal I guess? you cant have a pair of lightning claws on a regular champion.

you can, but it costs a ton

I think its legal to give the champion 1 single lightning claw. But not A PAIR?

You have 2 weapons, a bolt pistol and a CCW. You replace the bolt pistol with a single claw, then you replace the CCW with a single claw. You now have 2 claws. 30 points in total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whitedragon wrote:
5 Chosen compared to 5 CSM's or 5 Cult Troops actually compare pretty favorably since the Chosen get a stealth discount of not having to pay 10 extra points for their champion, especially if you're going to take Abby as your general. They can also take a Heavy Weapon at 5 men, making them cheaper than 5 man Noise Marine squads with Blastmasters. Chosen's base 2 attacks with Bolters, BP/CCW's and base LD9 mean that you don't have to pour as many points of upgrades into them if you don't want to.

Then of course, you can also just go max special weapons if you want, that's their flexibility.

Plague Marines are the only unit that doesnt have to pay the 10 points. The 10 points is actually for +1 attack not for being a character. Chosen Champions dont get +1 attack.

Missed that 'and/or' bit there. Thanks for the heads up. Now I might just use them as champion. Well why not. might as well right. They are challenging anyway.

With Chosen could take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
It would be fun using it to bring a 5 meltagun or flamer squad close while assaulting the target after firing.

Terminators can.

And they can take combi-meltas or flamers before they storm in and beat everything up in close combat. Among the many advantages of terminators is being able to take a proper shooting weapon AND a proper close combat one without immediately bankrupting yourself.

 Exergy wrote:

 whitedragon wrote:
5 Chosen compared to 5 CSM's or 5 Cult Troops actually compare pretty favorably since the Chosen get a stealth discount of not having to pay 10 extra points for their champion, especially if you're going to take Abby as your general. They can also take a Heavy Weapon at 5 men, making them cheaper than 5 man Noise Marine squads with Blastmasters. Chosen's base 2 attacks with Bolters, BP/CCW's and base LD9 mean that you don't have to pour as many points of upgrades into them if you don't want to.

Then of course, you can also just go max special weapons if you want, that's their flexibility.

Plague Marines are the only unit that doesnt have to pay the 10 points. The 10 points is actually for +1 attack not for being a character. Chosen Champions dont get +1 attack.

Not really sure what you're trying to say. Several CSM units have "add additional models for X points", but then the initial buy of 5 is actually (X*5)+10, where as for chosen it is not, and also for plague marines. Since all the squads come with Champions included, we can assume that the +10 points is for him, but it really doesn't matter. (And actually, the Chosen Champion has the same stats as the regular CSM champion, you could reason its the chosen that are getting a bonus +1 attack for free. It doesn't really matter either way.) The point I was making is that the chosen squad has a champion and their base cost is only (X*5) rather than (X*5)+10. Because of this, chosen can sometimes be more efficient than regular CSM's or some cult troops depending on how you want to kit them out.

There are also other little "tricks" you can do with Chosen since they can take power weapons for anyone, not just the champion. So, you could put a power weapon or something in the squad and not have to worry about it being "Challenged Out" because the Champion always has to challenge. Their other options give you alot of flexibility that the other units don't all have. Their ability to take a heavy weapon for instance, with only five men means that they are really efficient with an lascannon. If you were wanting to run Noise Marines with Blastmasters to make a gunline, for example, but you really didn't have anywhere to put the Slaanesh Lord, you could instead take Chosen with Lascannons, save several points and include Abaddon as your warlord instead.

Another way you could look at it is to compare fully "marked up" CSM's against base chosen.

While sure, for you could add MoK and CCW's to CSM's to make them the same as chosen, but then the chosen can add another mark on top of the gear they already have to come out ahead of your CSM's. At this point, the CSM's can't take anything else, but the chosen can take a mark as well if they want and get a little more out of it in some cases. Clearly, this needs to be taken into account with the context of the rest of your army, but there are alot of places Chosen can fit if you just take a second to think about it.

If you want everyone with a power weapon, take terminators. If you want everyone with a lascannon, take havocs.

Terminators also don't pay a champion tax either.