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I don't know...I've got an Entrenching Tool in the back of my Jeep next to the Hi-Lift jack. It seems like it could seriously ruin someone's day if I wanted to try wielding it. I think at least some American forces actually train to use them as close combat weapons (could be wrong. no idea why I think this but it's a piece of info floating around in my head).

Actually, getting a power field on that thing would be a real blessing. The Imperium should take all the power swords away from space marines, beat them into shovels, and give them to Imperial Guard who have to dig fortifications.

 dementedwombat wrote:
I don't know...I've got an Entrenching Tool in the back of my Jeep next to the Hi-Lift jack. It seems like it could seriously ruin someone's day.

At least older Russian (Soviet) close combat manuals have uses for those shovels. And as I recall from my mandatory service here we too were told to fold them into ready position when practicing charges. Having to use it would ofc mean you'd ran out of ammunition and managed to lose your assault rifle with the bayonet...

We didn't actually train whacking things with them, which was probably a good thing. Even unsharpened they sink well enough into trees that they stick there when you let go.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That's not how power fields work.

They cause molecular bonds to destabilize. They don't cause atomic bonds to break or annihilate atoms. That would mean a small nuclear explosion every time someone activated their power sword.

By destabilizing the molecular bonds, the field enhances the normal qualities of the weapon.

Actually the term most commonly used is "disrupt", as in "Drastically alter or destroy the structure of (something).".

So yeah, it essentially makes matter a non-issue, and every description of it I have read describes it as going through bones, tissue, and armour "with ease".

I have a film called All Quiet.on the Western Front on DVD. Its a WW1 film. I remember 1 scene where the main protagonist is being trained in CQC should he end up in an enemy trench, or vice versa. The sergeant was telling them that their bayonets were rubbish, because it would stick in the enemies and they'd be dead before they could use it again, whereas their shovel was better because you could bash heads and still decapitate with it.

Why did historical armies through the ages and in different combat situations favour the spear over shovels?

The bayonet is basically a modern spear, or a conversion kit to make your rifle s spear.

Hey, its just a movie scene. But a bayonet will get caught in a body if twisted, which you normally do to kill. Because a bayonet is not a spear, its a knife, and its not circular or double edged.

Not to mention the only real ones who used it Pre-Heresy was the Death Guard's special terminator forces.

Like why Typhus still uses one.

 Deadshot wrote:
Hey, its just a movie scene. But a bayonet will get caught in a body if twisted, which you normally do to kill. Because a bayonet is not a spear, its a knife, and its not circular or double edged.

Well, the fundamental concept of a spear is a knife on a stick

 Daba wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Hey, its just a movie scene. But a bayonet will get caught in a body if twisted, which you normally do to kill. Because a bayonet is not a spear, its a knife, and its not circular or double edged.

Well, the fundamental concept of a spear is a knife on a stick

Not exactly. If you look at difference between knives and spear blades, rhe spear blade is double edged and symetrical, whereas the knife is not. This means that a spear xan be take body out of the no matter the amount of turning it does, because the blade cuts back out.

However, a knife/bayonet is like a key, with the body the lock. The key or knife goes in in one position (although the knife doesn't have a set position), and can turn inside the lock, but its impossible to take it out with serious effort and damaging the lock, albeit the intent with the knife is just that.

However, that means it takes quite a bit of pulling to rip the knfe out, during which time, assuming your in a trench or similar, you have been killed. Bayonets haven't really been used since WW1 so past that its not a problem.

On the other hand a shovel can be used as a club, with the flat end, or an axe with the edge.

You can get spear based bayonets as well. The knife-like bayonet is more versatile as it can be taken off and used as a knife, so it is more common.

Although not a spear explicitly, it still makes the weapon a pseudo polearm (a greater catch-all than spear). The description of the bayonet on Wikipedia (cited to Brayley, Martin, Bayonets: An Illustrated History, Iola, WI: Krause Publications) also says that it 'effectively turns the gun into a spear', so I don't think they're too caught up with exact terminology but it is used in a similar manner.

To further complicate things, there's the Spade Bayonet, which is the entrenching tool (shovel) and a bayonet all in one.

Those I would like to see.

However, the more common knife version is quite different to a spear. In any case, a shovel is a much more versatible weapon better suited to CQC that bayonet-rifles.

The reason bayonets were not popular in the close fighting of trench warfare is that they are long and unwieldy in the confined spaces of a trench.
The reason they get stuck is when you don't twist them.
The correct procedure (when I received my bayonet training) was "In, Twist, Out"
The twist was to break the suction, and open a larger wound channel to ease the removal of the blade.
The close in work was done with pistols, trench knives, and sharpened shovels.
A WWI era rifle with bayonet was about 5' long.
I've seen improvised weapons made from sticks with barbed wire wrapped around them.

I know they uses special triangular bayonets at some point, which would for sure act more like a spear, but they got outlawed since they made wounds that were too hard to close up.

It seems like a strange thing to outlaw when you think about what it's attached to, but I suppose the people at the time decided for a reason.

 Deadshot wrote:
Those I would like to see.

However, the more common knife version is quite different to a spear. In any case, a shovel is a much more versatible weapon better suited to CQC that bayonet-rifles.

Common knife now or then? there are and were many types of knife blades (and spear blades).

 dementedwombat wrote:
I know they uses special triangular bayonets at some point, but they got outlawed since they made wounds that were too hard to close up.

It seems like a strange thing to outlaw when you think about what it's attached to.

Well,we poor earthlings have to think about the Geneva Convention which prohibits certain weapon types in military conflicts - explosive bullets, non-detectable fragments and so on. A guy hit by a bullet is usually already out of the fight so using bullets that make it harder to treat him is wrong. Using mines/grenades and so on with materials that can't be reliably found in X-rays is likewise prohibited since it adds nothing to the fight but makes it harder to treat a wounded soldier. Same would probably go for the triangular bayonet - a regular blade works well enough, having one that also makes it harder to save the guy once he's in a hospital would be spiteful.

Which itself is silly.

Rules of warfare died with chivalry.

The scythe actually has loads of AOE, & reach , and with a space marine wielding It, it won't be very slow or at all clumsy . There's nothing clumsy about a scythe if you keep the enemy out of range (if they close in you're screwed) you could kill 3 orks with every swing & if you kept your technique solid they could never close in & would die in copious amounts.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Those I would like to see.

However, the more common knife version is quite different to a spear. In any case, a shovel is a much more versatible weapon better suited to CQC that bayonet-rifles.

Common knife now or then? there are and were many types of knife blades (and spear blades).

Then. Knife bayonets were more common than spear blades as, like said, it could be detached and used as a weapon itself. I have never heard of or seen reference to bayonets being used post WW1.apart from the American storyline in Call of Duty: World at War.

Apparently used in Iraq effectively.

 Daba wrote:
Apparently used in Iraq effectively.

in Vietnam?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vietnam-War-US-Military-Bayonets_(cropped).jpg

Ok, now I have.

Question, were the bayonets used by the US or the Vietnamese/Iraq?

 Deadshot wrote:
Ok, now I have.

Question, were the bayonets used by the US or the Vietnamese/Iraq?

In the Iraq war, it was used by the British and they apparently won that skirmish outnumbered 5:1 or something like that.

I remember reading about that. It was a British unit of some kind (squad, platoon?) and they were pinned down on a hillside I think. Ammunition was running out so the unit commander decided it's better to try and force a breakthrough rather than just sit there completely out of ammo. They fixed bayonets and charged down the hill. The enemies all freaked out so much that it actually went well for them.

Not a recommended strategy, but the guy who made the call made the best of a horrible situation, so good on him.

I hear the up coming Warhammer 40k: Agri World, will have rules for the Power Scythe.

 Daba wrote:
Why did historical armies through the ages and in different combat situations favour the spear over shovels?

The bayonet is basically a modern spear, or a conversion kit to make your rifle s spear.

Because most historical armies didn't fight in trenches
The sharpened shovel was, because of it's very short reach and the terrible damage it could do a nice weapon for trench fighting or other extremely cramped/ close ranged fighting situations.

KingDeath wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Why did historical armies through the ages and in different combat situations favour the spear over shovels?

The bayonet is basically a modern spear, or a conversion kit to make your rifle s spear.

Because most historical armies didn't fight in trenches
The sharpened shovel was, because of it's very short reach and the terrible damage it could do a nice weapon for trench fighting or other extremely cramped/ close ranged fighting situations.

Depends on the situation and the time period. Trenches ave been used for a very long time in siege warfare.It's only fairly recently that an entire war was fought using them.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I hear the up coming Warhammer 40k: Agri World, will have rules for the Power Scythe.

Have an exalt.

Scythes are Harder to use than a sword or ax. Power Scythes were probably harder to make than other power weapons.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Those I would like to see.

However, the more common knife version is quite different to a spear. In any case, a shovel is a much more versatible weapon better suited to CQC that bayonet-rifles.

Common knife now or then? there are and were many types of knife blades (and spear blades).

Then. Knife bayonets were more common than spear blades as, like said, it could be detached and used as a weapon itself. I have never heard of or seen reference to bayonets being used post WW1.apart from the American storyline in Call of Duty: World at War.

When I served in the latter half of the 1990s, I both trained with and was issued a bayonet. The one thing that I always laughed about, as part of bayonet training, is that the Field Manual suggests "if the weapon should become stuck or lodged in the body of an enemy, discharge 1 to 3 rounds in order to clear the blade."

... if I had 1 to 3 rounds remaining in the magazine, I wouldn't have stabbed the sonuvab**ch, I'da shot him!

I love scythe weapons, I am keeping then alive!