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There was this game called D&D, used it all the time. Though I bring a lot of d6's (118) but I only do that, like bringing 4 scatter dice and extra templates, just in case someone forgot theirs, which happens.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Sleg wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I always have 2D4, 2D8, 2D10, 1D20, scatter die, artillery dice, and more D6's then ever needed for a game of Shadowrun near by at all times...

what no d12? how can you live without a d12?

Who uses a D12? Answer.

Just for this game:

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/14058/doctor-who-the-game-of-time-space

Found a short list of games that use d12
http://www.gmdice.com/d12-games

I've seen a couple of posts hook on the "base contact" thing... allocating as though it were a close combat wound.
Bear in mind that the rule does *NOT* tell you to allocate this way. We also can't assume any model as the source, as the rule doesn't give us one either, so you couldn't even know what model you're meant to be looking at base contact with.

 Sleg wrote:
What method do you use to allocate to a unit that has an odd number or large number like 31 in it?
How much time do you spend trying to figure out who gets a single wound?
If the wound pool removes the randomly chosen model, do you start over trying to figure out a random model?
Do you start your random rolling over if you re-roll the number for the already removed figure?
How do you compare your level of Fairness to the fact that if a Chaos Player has 3 Heldrakes and you basically just slowed your game to a grinding halt, at the end of their mv phase?

Now that I finally found it I can answer this.

When it really matters (ie in a tournament), I use the rules on page 5 RANDOMISING, which says to do it the exact way I mentioned earlier.

I even own some d30s (for keeping life totals in MtG), so even that wouldn't be an issue. You can also drop a piece of paper on the unit and kill whatever model is hit, use a calculator with a random function (also found on most mobile phones or tablets), get an app to generate random numbers, ask a random bystander to name a number between 1 and 30, or sit your cat on the gaming table and look which ork is eaten first.

If you are shy of rolling dice, you simply shouldn't play orks. Ever fired a dakka jet on your Waaagh! at a unit with rerollable saves, FNP and characters? That's more dice than you could ever roll randomizing any ork unit.

Seems like most people agree on this:
When the orks take a hit by a bosspole. Randomize the hit. Roll a die, close your eye an pick one or any other way both can agree its random.

If its a big number, you can ask your opponent to write down a number on a note (13 for exampel). Then you just start pointing on a model and say one, two, theree and so on and the opponent will say stop when its the randomzed model.

I had another question about the Bosspole: Is a bosspole user allowed to use it on another model with a bosspole?
In a unit with nobs, can you randomize a hit to another nob with a pole?

It only prohibits hitting the model which is using the boss pole. It doesn't say a word about other models with boss poles.

 Super Ready wrote:
I've seen a couple of posts hook on the "base contact" thing... allocating as though it were a close combat wound.
Bear in mind that the rule does *NOT* tell you to allocate this way. We also can't assume any model as the source, as the rule doesn't give us one either, so you couldn't even know what model you're meant to be looking at base contact with.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180058a_Orks_v1.4_APRIL13.pdf

First FAQ
Q. Are saves allowed against Wounds caused by rolling a ‘1’ for the
‘Waaagh!’ Fleet roll? Or by a bosspole’s re-roll? (p31)
A. Armour and invulnerable saves are allowed. These are just
the same as Wounds suffered in close combat from a normal
weapon (actually, a big green fist…).

The reason everyone is saying this whole BTB thing is because GW is saying it is the same as Wounds suffered in Close Combat. Closest Model or Model in BTB take the wound. If multiple models are in BtB the player of the attacked unit can choose, which model takes the wound. If the closest model is a character, they can look out sir, but they can NOT pick the model that holds the Bosspole, even if that model is the closest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vombat wrote:
Seems like most people agree on this:
When the orks take a hit by a bosspole. Randomize the hit. Roll a die, close your eye an pick one or any other way both can agree its random.

If its a big number, you can ask your opponent to write down a number on a note (13 for exampel). Then you just start pointing on a model and say one, two, theree and so on and the opponent will say stop when its the randomzed model.

I had another question about the Bosspole: Is a bosspole user allowed to use it on another model with a bosspole?
In a unit with nobs, can you randomize a hit to another nob with a pole?

Page 5 is very clear on how you randomize as was made very clear to me - though some people know how to speed roll though diving up the unit into equal groups no higher than 6. Roll the die, if the roll is a 6 and no model is assigned re-roll until you first get your group and then roll until you get the model that is assigned to the roll. Continue this method until the wound pool is empty. For me, if it doesn't make a difference which model is removed (ie no special weapons or character in the unit), for the sake of time, just pick and remove the models as need - this is not for everyone and probably wont be allowed in Tournies (I think it would). But that is the Method.

As for you question about 2 Bosspoles (other than being a waste of 5 points). The Ork Player, picks which figure is using the Bosspole. Only that model can not take the wound. the other Model with the Bosspole could take the wound. If the FAQ over rides the BRB, then you would resolve the Bosspole wound as if it were a close combat attack. Just like a roll of a 1, the character in the unit, will deliver the wound. If there is no character, then I guess most people will random allocation the wound, personally, if there isn't a character or boss in the unit, I would jus let them pick the model that takes the wound.

 Sleg wrote:
First FAQ
Q. Are saves allowed against Wounds caused by rolling a ‘1’ for the
‘Waaagh!’ Fleet roll? Or by a bosspole’s re-roll? (p31)
A. Armour and invulnerable saves are allowed. These are just
the same as Wounds suffered in close combat from a normal
weapon (actually, a big green fist…).

The reason everyone is saying this whole BTB thing is because GW is saying it is the same as Wounds suffered in Close Combat. Closest Model or Model in BTB take the wound. If multiple models are in BtB the player of the attacked unit can choose, which model takes the wound. If the closest model is a character, they can look out sir, but they can NOT pick the model that holds the Bosspole, even if that model is the closest.

Interesting... this at least seems to make the intent clearer. But even combined with the rule, it doesn't give us a source so we're not told where to figure out base contact/closest model from...
Pure RAW I still say we'd have to randomise because of that oversight, but I now agree that RAI was probably supposed to have the wound come from the pole-holder and that's how I'll play it if it comes up.

If the wound is resolved like Close Combat, then Source is page 25 in the Assault Phase for Allocating Wounds, second bullet point, 2nd sentence. "If several enemy models are the same distance away, then their controlling player chooses which is allocated the Wound, as above."

I believe that FAQ trumps Current Codex, Current Codex trumps BRB for all rules disputes. If we are following that, then you resolve Bosspole and Fleet, as if they were close combat attacks.

Does it matter?

 Sleg wrote:
Current Codex trumps BRB for all rules disputes.

Ugh. do we really have to go down that route? Can't just accept that RAW is wonky and that you are probably right on spot with your RAI? The rules do not fit your opinion, no matter what you make up. Unless a rule explicitly says that the Nob is punching the model next to him in close combat, the direction is unclear. Just like it's unclear for the helldrake's sweeping strikes, even though any child could figure out IRL where the helldrake is positioned in relation to the ork boyz it is striking. If it ever comes up, just tell your opponent that the rules tell you to randomize, even though it takes long, and that nob is supposed to attacking a boy in close combat. Nine out of ten people will agree and just play it that way.

 Sleg wrote:
If the wound is resolved like Close Combat, then Source is page 25 in the Assault Phase for Allocating Wounds, second bullet point, 2nd sentence. "If several enemy models are the same distance away, then their controlling player chooses which is allocated the Wound, as above."

I believe that FAQ trumps Current Codex, Current Codex trumps BRB for all rules disputes. If we are following that, then you resolve Bosspole and Fleet, as if they were close combat attacks.

Find where it states the nob causes the wound. Becuase it actually states the player.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find where it states the nob causes the wound.

The gear is the source, and the Nob is carrying the gear. The burden of proof that it's coming from somewhere else is quite entirely yours. And you'll need to do better than:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Becuase it actually states the player.

The player gets to make the choice of whether a wound is inflicted. This doesn't make him the source, any more than the player is for any other action they've chosen to have any of their models make.

 Jidmah wrote:

Ugh. do we really have to go down that route? Can't just accept that RAW is wonky and that you are probably right on spot with your RAI?

I had to pause for a second and make sure I was reading this right. Because when I present how I play because a lot of the rules are wonky. Or I say how I interprate these rules. I have 20 comments all saying the same thing. I'm wrong, follow the rules, don't look for something that is not there. You can't just sit back throw a bunch of dice and have fun goofing around. You must follow to the letter, what it says. Now because I make the statement that even GW says, with disputes in the rules, First check the website or print out a copy of the FAQ. These are corrections to the Codex and Rules. The FAQ is the final word. Now army codex are designed as the exception to the rule book. If it is not in the FAQ, the next thing we must look at is the codex. If it says that they can use their powerfist on their normal INT. This means if their INT is 4, that's when they attack. Then there is the BRB, obviously this is where the rules are, so there aren't any corrections to rules, because in this book are the rules.

So if we decided to follow this logic, if the FAQ says the Bosspole resolves as a close combat attack. Then that is how we proceed. It doesn't matter if I normally just point to a model and roll the save. No we need to waste time doing it a certain way. The FAQ doesn't say it must be a Random Allocation. The Bosspole doesn't say Random Allocation the wound, but a heck of a lot of people think that's what we must do. Playing the orks, even though it looks like I have a large unit with models that look very different from each other, the truth is for Ork Boyz, they are all pretty much the same, If the Boyz are in Melee and their are less than 11 of them, Odds are that unit will never make it out of melee. If I were the opponent, I'm more concern about the second morale roll, then which model takes the wound - I usually roll that before the wound roll, but you can't beat the speed of a finger pointing at a model and a die for save being tossed.

The guy with the boss pole gives the unit a re-roll, at the cost of whacking an ork.
The ork death is a result of the boss pole.
The source of the dead orc is the boss pole.
Where's the boss pole in the unit?

If you don't think the pole is the source, if I sniper the Nob w/pole dead, do you think you can still re-roll a test?

-Matt

 Sleg wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Ugh. do we really have to go down that route? Can't just accept that RAW is wonky and that you are probably right on spot with your RAI?

I had to pause for a second and make sure I was reading this right. Because when I present how I play because a lot of the rules are wonky. Or I say how I interprate these rules. I have 20 comments all saying the same thing. I'm wrong, follow the rules, don't look for something that is not there. You can't just sit back throw a bunch of dice and have fun goofing around. You must follow to the letter, what it says. Now because I make the statement that even GW says, with disputes in the rules, First check the website or print out a copy of the FAQ. These are corrections to the Codex and Rules. The FAQ is the final word.

Yes, read that exactly right. Check the tenets of this forum. No one is trying to change the way you play the game. Many people here are playing tournaments or in environments where RAW actually matters, so to those people, your approach is actually wrong. To any other person you house rule is a nice info on how you would play it, but it's definitely not what the rules say.

Now army codex are designed as the exception to the rule book. If it is not in the FAQ, the next thing we must look at is the codex. If it says that they can use their powerfist on their normal INT. This means if their INT is 4, that's when they attack. Then there is the BRB, obviously this is where the rules are, so there aren't any corrections to rules, because in this book are the rules.

That's not true. Codex usually trumps the BRB, but not in all aspects. As we're talking about orks, the entire apendix (hull points, characters, some weapon profiles) trumps the ork codex.
Codex rules only trump the BRB when they are
a) newer than the BRB
b) in direct contradiction to a rule in the BRB (for example allowing Zagstrukk to assault after deep strike)

So if we decided to follow this logic, if the FAQ says the Bosspole resolves as a close combat attack. Then that is how we proceed. It doesn't matter if I normally just point to a model and roll the save. No we need to waste time doing it a certain way. The FAQ doesn't say it must be a Random Allocation. The Bosspole doesn't say Random Allocation the wound, but a heck of a lot of people think that's what we must do.

[Warning. this is about RAW. I am neither playing it this way, nor forcing anyone to do so]
The point is, it doesn't say anything, because there are no rules specified for allocating close combat wounds from unknown sources. Thus we go to the default rule, which is random allocation. Just like you would go to the default rule for wounds from known sources if the rule actually said that the model with the boss pole is inflicting the wound on the unit. Since both the rule and the FAQ were written in a time when it didn't matter who was causing the wound, they forgot to tell us.
If you want a fluff justification, the nob with the boss pole could be pointing at the boy he like least and tell everyone that he is causing bad luck. After that random ork has been thoroughly beaten up by everyone else, they hold the line.

Playing the orks, even though it looks like I have a large unit with models that look very different from each other, the truth is for Ork Boyz, they are all pretty much the same, If the Boyz are in Melee and their are less than 11 of them, Odds are that unit will never make it out of melee. If I were the opponent, I'm more concern about the second morale roll, then which model takes the wound - I usually roll that before the wound roll, but you can't beat the speed of a finger pointing at a model and a die for save being tossed.

Just because something is unlikely to happen or irrelevant doesn't make the rule go away. The random ork could cause you to take less damage from a blast, make the charge distance longer, take you out of coherency, out of KFF range, etc, etc. If your opponent has no problem with you picking off any random ork, that's great. If he wants you to randomize, he is following the rules though.
Also, as in my example before, shooting a dakka jet at models with multiple saves (reroll, FNP) can cause as many as 144 dice rolls. Charging a full unit of slugga boyz into anything can cause up to 360 dice rolls. Do you really think the few dice needed to randomize make a difference in time?

 Sleg wrote:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180058a_Orks_v1.4_APRIL13.pdf

First FAQ
Q. Are saves allowed against Wounds caused by rolling a ‘1’ for the
‘Waaagh!’ Fleet roll? Or by a bosspole’s re-roll? (p31)
A. Armour and invulnerable saves are allowed. These are just
the same as Wounds suffered in close combat from a normal
weapon (actually, a big green fist…).

This is what GW's FAQ actually says. I will quote it again "These are just the same as Wounds suffered in close combat from a normal weapon..."
I am not creating a House Rule. I am not just making this up. the FAQ is the correction or explanation for the rules. This is where all arguments stop. If GW say that it is a Wound suffered in close combat. Then it is not random allocation. Bosspole holder is striking a member of his unit (the closest model). You resolve as if the wound was given in Close Combat.


The FAQ's last update was April 13 2013, so it is newer than the 6th edition rules

 Sleg wrote:

 Sleg wrote:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180058a_Orks_v1.4_APRIL13.pdf

First FAQ
Q. Are saves allowed against Wounds caused by rolling a ‘1’ for the
‘Waaagh!’ Fleet roll? Or by a bosspole’s re-roll? (p31)
A. Armour and invulnerable saves are allowed. These are just
the same as Wounds suffered in close combat from a normal
weapon (actually, a big green fist…).

This is what GW's FAQ actually says. I will quote it again "These are just the same as Wounds suffered in close combat from a normal weapon..."
I am not creating a House Rule. I am not just making this up. the FAQ is the correction or explanation for the rules. This is where all arguments stop. If GW say that it is a Wound suffered in close combat. Then it is not random allocation. Bosspole holder is striking a member of his unit (the closest model). You resolve as if the wound was given in Close Combat.


The FAQ's last update was April 13 2013, so it is newer than the 6th edition rules

That does not say what your saying it does. It doesnt say that the wounds are close combat wounds. It says the wounds would cause the same wound pool as a normal close combat weapon. Subtle but important difference.

Yep, and as there is still no source given, you have to fall back on random allocation

Reading, and *understanding* all the rules, helps here

We must be reading what and who has the Big Green Fist differently. because a wound that is the "same as Wounds suffered in close combat" doesn't say anything about a wound pool. It is the same, the only difference is Some Ork with a Big Green Fist (a model in the same unit as the model taking the wound) is hitting another. That is how I read the same as wounds suffered in close combat.

As far as which Ork has the Big Green Fist, it is the one with the Bosspole or the Boss will be smacking an Ork around. I find it difficult to believe that you are so hung up on random allocation that you can not understand that you NEVER random allocate wounds suffered in close combat. This would also go for things that are the SAME as wounds suffered in close combat.

The rule doesn't say that the nob is causing the wound. It could be any ork in the unit that has at least one green, big fist -> we don't know.

It's fairly implicit where the wound is coming from. A nob is described as having a rather threatening device used for restoring order. A wound is caused, the bearer of the weapon being singled out as not taking the wound.
Obviously the Nob is using violence to restore 'dissaplin' in the mob. Put the wound on the ork closest to the nob and be done with it.

If that sounds a bit fluffy for you, here's an alternate way of doing things.
The source of the wound is "undefined." Wounds are allocated to the closest model. If you were to check the distance of each ork to the source of the wound, the result would be "undefined." Therefor, all orks are an equal distance from the wound causer and the controlling player gets to choose where the wound goes.

Those are the two possible outcomes I get from reading the rules. There is no permission to use random allocation anywhere that I can see.

Random allocation is the default. If you can't figure out which ork is closest, and thus are explicitly allowed to use another type of wound allocation, you must use the default.

From a programming point of view, if the distance between undefined and ork is undefined, the comparison between two undefined distances is also undefined.

Distance1 between ork1 and <undefined> = <undefined>
Distance2 between ork2 and <undefined> = <undefined>
Is Dinstance1 closer than Distance2
=> Is <undefined> closer than <undefined> = <undefined>

Also, on the fluff part, as the nob is obviously not using the boss pole/steel jaw to smack the boy, it's only a pretty good guess. Compare to sweeping strikes, where the source is also implicit, but the rules tell you use random allocation.

A explained multiple times, not using random allocation is probably the right thing to do. The rules just don't say this because they're old.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
It's fairly implicit where the wound is coming from. A nob is described as having a rather threatening device used for restoring order. A wound is caused, the bearer of the weapon being singled out as not taking the wound.
Obviously the Nob is using violence to restore 'dissaplin' in the mob. Put the wound on the ork closest to the nob and be done with it.

If that sounds a bit fluffy for you, here's an alternate way of doing things.
The source of the wound is "undefined."

Aaaaaaaand stop right there. There is no source of the wound. Now turn to page 15, random alloatin.....oh look, to be used whenever the source of a wound is unclear.

Fafnir13 wrote:Those are the two possible outcomes I get from reading the rules. There is no permission to use random allocation anywhere that I can see.

Apart from the part where the rules tell you to use random allocation, as the source of the woudn is unclear

Sleg - prove, using rules, where the source of the wound is. Note you are tol;d the PLAYER can inflict the wound, and that the owner of the boss pole is exempt. You need to find a rule stating *where* the wound is generated from. Page and graph

Further refusal from you to do so will be considered concession of the point, as this is literally your only chance now to prove your argument

I spend 5 points to give a nob or HQ a Bosspole. If I'm using a unit of Nobs, I have to dedicate this bosspole to a model. If the model is removed from the game. I can no longer use said bosspole to allocate a wound and reroll LD for morale.

The Source is the Bosspole Holder. This is NOT unclear. in fact it is crystal clear.

So no, you still cannot provide any rules

Page and graph, or concede. Further refusal will be considered concession

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Fafnir13 wrote:
It's fairly implicit where the wound is coming from. A nob is described as having a rather threatening device used for restoring order. A wound is caused, the bearer of the weapon being singled out as not taking the wound.
Obviously the Nob is using violence to restore 'dissaplin' in the mob. Put the wound on the ork closest to the nob and be done with it.

If that sounds a bit fluffy for you, here's an alternate way of doing things.
The source of the wound is "undefined."

Aaaaaaaand stop right there. There is no source of the wound. Now turn to page 15, random alloatin.....oh look, to be used whenever the source of a wound is unclear.

Fafnir13 wrote:Those are the two possible outcomes I get from reading the rules. There is no permission to use random allocation anywhere that I can see.

Apart from the part where the rules tell you to use random allocation, as the source of the woudn is unclear

Sleg - prove, using rules, where the source of the wound is. Note you are tol;d the PLAYER can inflict the wound, and that the owner of the boss pole is exempt. You need to find a rule stating *where* the wound is generated from. Page and graph

Further refusal from you to do so will be considered concession of the point, as this is literally your only chance now to prove your argument

Thinking on this some more since it's still going on.

The source of the wound is "you" You choose to inflict the wound. Ergo, grab the closest model to you.

And, given you have no presence on the table, you have to pick a random model....