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Many voices, both here on Dakka and around the rest of the interwebs, can be heard screaming "CSM not competitive, need MOAR HELDRAKES!"
Every list I've posted in the Army List forum, as a new CSM player, has had the expected one or more comments of "your list is ___, but if you want it to be competitive you should add two heldrakes." Or "you've only got one heldrake, you're going to lose."

So what's up with the hype, and where did it come from? And why are people hatin' on CSM if played WITHOUT drakes?

I played my first 8 or so games before even looking at a heldrake, and now I one at the most. Sure I lost a couple of games, but I've got more wins than losses under my belt. I didn't even touch Plague Marines, another CSM go-to, until about game 6. I'm at 14 games and I've been playing for maybe three months.
Without PM or Heldrakes I made it to 3rd place in a tourney less than one month into my warhammer experience. I ran Noise Marines, Cultists, Helbrute, Chosen, Chaos Lord, Sorcerer, that kind of thing. My two losses were to Tau and Space Wolves, both experienced players who've been up to it for years. I don't feel bad about losing to them because I learned a lot about what my units can and cannot do.

And what they CAN do is win without needing to rely on one or two model types. It isn't all that hard to find creative ways to play to CSM's strengths and try downplay it's weaknesses. Yes I often field a heldrake now, but I haven't found it to be nearly as effective as popular belief would have it. I just don't see it being the win-button everyone says it is.

Because CSM are kinda Meh TBH. With their big units getting nerfed. They cost more then regular marines, but have the saves of them so they die as easy(Which is why you see SO many nurgle marks)

because CSM suck except for plague marines and hellturkeys

the hellturkey is so overpowered the rest of the CSM players army may as well not show up.

Its hard to draw any hard conclusions from your post as we don't know how competitive your area is, or how big the tournament was.

A lot of people get tied up on going against 'INTERNETZ DEATH LISTZ OF DOOM' that you see pop up. Point is, when a whole community as large as Dakka and the greater 40k community (all the blogs, like 3++ and so on) generally agree that unit X is good, its not because people are generally sheep and blindly follow other people's advice. Its because unit X is genuinely good. In fact, it might be awesome. People don't rave about the Vendetta because its the cool thing to do; they rave about because its an amazing unit with very little in the way of drawbacks. Same goes for the Heldrake.

The greater internet community of 40k generally agrees on strong lists/units/builds because they're genuinely storng lists/units/builds. The people who write these blogs and forum posts, and tactics articles are people who win regionally or nationally. When something new and effective appears, the community takes notice and changes its views accordingly.

kb305 wrote:
because CSM suck except for plague marines and hellturkeys

the hellturkey is so overpowered the rest of the CSM players army may as well not show up.

It would see that the OP disproves that theory.

Hotsauceman1, which big units are you saying got nerfed? 'Cause chaos space marines cost LESS than most regular marines, and have more options. Some of their units may be less than optimal, but that doesn't mean they're useless.

kb305, want to back that up?

Blacksails, I totally get that the community at large has play-tested the snot out of these things and has more combined experience and wisdom than I could dream of. I just don't feel it for this topic. Yes the Heldrake is good, and it makes sense for the kind of players who frequent these forums to play to win. But I absolutely do not feel it is required in order to win with CSM. I plan on playing my list without it for the next while to see how it changes things.
The people I played with are the most competitive I've encountered to date. I haven't played in any huge tourneys and the pool of people I've gone up against is unarguably small, but that doesn't change the fact that they understand their armies and the rules of the game. The tournament wasn't a big one, and at 1000pts.

Lord Harrab, cheers.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Hotsauceman1, which big units are you saying got nerfed? 'Cause chaos space marines cost LESS than most regular marines, and have more options. Some of their units may be less than optimal, but that doesn't mean they're useless.

kb305, want to back that up?

Defilers are crap, can barely do jack.
And the forgefiend is bs3 in a space marine army.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
The tournament wasn't a big one, and at 1000pts.

Lord Harrab, cheers.

I appreciate that you admit your sample size is small and that the community generally consists of hundreds+ games played to determine the viability of a unit/build.

However, I highlighted your point that the tourney was at 1000pts. Generally, most armies don't truly come into their own (exploit their stenghts/mitigate their weaknesses) until 1500+, more often 1850 is seen as a competitive level. I can assure you that at 1850pts, your army would struggle without using tried and tested units/builds against similarly built lists.

back what up.

it's plain to see a couple hellturkeys could easily table a non optimized list.

even as a casual player the internal balance is so terrible it's difficult to ignore.

CSM are solid, Heldrakes are just insanely good, especially for their price. They're the go-to competitive unit. Fortunately competitive lists aren't quite as cookie cutter as they were with the last codex, but they'll pretty much always have Heldrakes in them. Personally, I don't care for the model or its rules so I don't take one, and I do alright.

Yep, I'd be crazy to say Dakka and the other forums somehow have less combined knowledge than I do. As a point, though, I'm pretty sure ALL the guys I've been playing against are members here.
I'm learning that in degrees, definitely a different feel to 1500+ lists. Well my next several, likely all around 2000, without my heldrake should go a long way to disproving or reinforcing my theory.

@Brother SRM; Not digging the model either, I'm working on converting a High Elf Dragon to fit.

Edit: I should also add that in my immediate meta/flgs people don't use allied forces due to a few nimrods abusing it and wrecking the fun for everyone before I even started playing.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Yep, I'd be crazy to say Dakka and the other forums somehow have less combined knowledge than I do. As a point, though, I'm pretty sure ALL the guys I've been playing against are members here.
I'm learning that in degrees, definitely a different feel to 1500+ lists. Well my next several, likely all around 2000, without my heldrake should go a long way to disproving or reinforcing my theory.

And by all means. No one is forcing you to play in any particular way. But the community at large is generally right when there's a consensus on how strong a unit is.

If you're winning more than losing with no drakes them no offense but you're probably not playing against competitive lists. Csm can't really be tournament ready without drakes and plague marines

The average CSM army looks like this these days

Juggerlord
Typhus/Nurgle Sorcerer

Maybe some Terminators for termicide

Plague marines with Rhinos for midfield objective stealing and Zombies/Cultists for back field camping

Heldrakes

Maybe Bikers of Nurgle or Spawn of Nurgle

Obliterators of nurgle.

The occasional person may be inventive and use Predators or Havocs.

And then whatever allies the Chaos player wants, though the most common are Daemons, IG, Necrons, and Tau.

The Book can be made to work, but it's very cookie cutter.

 Laughingcarp wrote:

Well my next several, likely all around 2000, without my heldrake should go a long way to disproving or reinforcing my theory.

Likely disproved when you get tabled by 3 Drakes

^ agreed

 Laughingcarp wrote:


And what they CAN do is win without needing to rely on one or two model types. It isn't all that hard to find creative ways to play to CSM's strengths and try downplay it's weaknesses. Yes I often field a heldrake now, but I haven't found it to be nearly as effective as popular belief would have it. I just don't see it being the win-button everyone says it is.

I don't think anyone ever said the Heldrake is a win-button. Luckily, for all the ups and downs, there isn't yet a single unit in Warhammer 40K that is truly a win-button.

But saying something is powerful, perhaps unbalanced and saying something is utterly unbeatable are two very, very, very different things.


There's a logical fallacy here.

Take a car race between a Toyota Corolla and a Porsche 911. Is it impossible for the Corolla to win the race? No. It may just beat the Porsche for any number of reasons. But that doesn't mean, or prove, that the Porsche isn't overall/on average/in general still the better car for car racing.



Roughly the same logic applies to better or worse units, better or worse army lists in 40K. A Heldrake heavy list is, often, at an advantage, simply because it is a very good unit. It's a pretty good Porsche to have for the race of 40K in most match-ups.

Does that mean it is utterly unbeatable? No. But neither does beating a heldrake-heavy list mean that it isn't - broadly speaking - a list that gives you an edge over alternatives you might have fielded.

Ha, oh Heldrakes. An amazing unit, but a terrible one for the game itself. The Heldrake is the singlemost overcentralizing factor in 40K to date, and due to the ally system they can be taken with a frighttening amount of different armies, and they single handedly broke the back of MEQ armies in the competitive scene. Really terrible game design, the Baleflamer should honestly have been a 60 point upgrade.

Due to this I have personally been boycotting Heldrakes with my own CSM, and I can feel it. I also win more than I lose with my fluffy Slaaneshi army, but the games are a lot tougher, and I'm not going up against tournament class lists with them- which is nice, because its a lot more fun for my casual opponents than my Eldar . If I need to play to win, I still go with Eldar, everytime, and this was before the new codex dropped for Space Elves.

CSM have a lot of solid units,
- Bikers and Spawn are respectable fast attack choices in their own right, and whose biggest downfall is needing to compete with the drake
- Noise Marines play second fiddle to Plague Marines but are still competitively viable cult troop choice with great options for anti horde and anti MEQ.
- Lot of good options in HQ, with Sorcerer's, Lords, and even Daemon Weapon Princes all being competitively viable
- Basic CSM are solid when taken cheaply and taking advantage of that 13 ppm
- Cultists are good, zombies are better. I like running 10 cultists with a flamer and slapping them in an unused rhino.

The issue is that there are a lot of bad units, and the solid units are not overwhelming, just solid. Ultimately the book does need Heldrakes to not feel gimped at the highest level, but there are a lot of players like me out there who enjoy building themed lists around a particular god or warlord, and we still do pretty good. Which if that is what you are after, then more power to you. I have gotten a lot of compliments on my Slaaneshi CSM despite them not being painted yet just because of the conversions that went into a lot of the models (and I suck at converting compared to some of the awesome folk on here).

Remember, forging a narrative is in the rules. lol

Heldrakes break a ton of the unwritten rules for 40k design.

It is both AP3 and ignores cover, and can project the shot 12". Few weapons have two of those, let alone all three.

It is both very fast, and surprisingly durable.

it's a flier with a turret weapon, so it can linger on the battlefield.

It's a flier, but it can vector strike.

Hotsauceman1, which big units are you saying got nerfed? 'Cause chaos space marines cost LESS than most regular marines, and have more options. Some of their units may be less than optimal, but that doesn't mean they're useless.

There's part of the problem right there. Are you playing against a lot of older books? Because CSM cost MORE than the only other 6th ed marine book currently released (DA). They cost one point more than DA, have non of the advantages, have several built in disadvantages, and generally end up being very in-efficient in terms of points when you try to get them upgraded. That's partly why you see so many cultist armies (and even the cultists are too expensive - compare them to Kroot and you'll see what I mean). If you're playing for example a BA player at 1000 points, yeah, you're probably going to trash him. Same with the regular Marines book, but a competent Tau (note that this is an army with a right and proper 6thed book) player is going to give you fits.

The guard codex has two units that have Ap3 ignores cover, and a threat range of 12" or more. Tau have Ap3 and they can ignore cover saves with any weapon. Heck, space marines have at least a couple of Ap3 flamers. Helldrakes aren't bringing something new to the table with the kind of firepower it puts out.

The only thing they did wrong with helldrakes is vector strikes, but that was because of the idiot who wrote vector strike into the main rulebook. A unit that can't get in to close combat gets free close combat attacks in the movement phase? Thanks Ward.

Anyways, as for why the mania, 40k players are no better than your average person. Somebody said something once and someone else agreed, therefore it's unshakable, undeniable truth, and those who don't believe the truth are ignorant and thus stupid. Or worse, they know the truth but refuse to walk in the light on purpose, making them liars, or traitors, or heretics.

None of this is new. Religion is part of human nature, regardless of the target of veneration, with according behavior patterns.

As for the helldrake in specific, I'd point you towards this active thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/539272.page

Tycho wrote:

Hotsauceman1, which big units are you saying got nerfed? 'Cause chaos space marines cost LESS than most regular marines, and have more options. Some of their units may be less than optimal, but that doesn't mean they're useless.

There's part of the problem right there. Are you playing against a lot of older books? Because CSM cost MORE than the only other 6th ed marine book currently released (DA). They cost one point more than DA, have non of the advantages, have several built in disadvantages, and generally end up being very in-efficient in terms of points when you try to get them upgraded. That's partly why you see so many cultist armies (and even the cultists are too expensive - compare them to Kroot and you'll see what I mean). If you're playing for example a BA player at 1000 points, yeah, you're probably going to trash him. Same with the regular Marines book, but a competent Tau (note that this is an army with a right and proper 6thed book) player is going to give you fits.

13 points is less than 14 points. Just saying.

13 points is less than 14 points. Just saying.

Doh! Did I flip 'em? Eh, point largely still stands even if partially changed. DA are WAAAAAAAY more efficient for the points and are not hindered by any of the CSM nonsense that the Chaos marines have to deal with. Also, my main point was more that you really can't compare the cost of CSM to the older Marine books and have an accurate comparison.

One way I determine if a unit is poor, good, or above average is the degree to which it can earn back its points.

Luck aside, I find hell drakes usually last a solid 2+ turns where they consistently hit the majority of a squad with their template. They can take out the majority of a marine squad if they get a good angle which alone will earn back most of their points in one turn. Anything after 2 turns of shooting is just a bonus as they have already earned their points back and crippled your opponents ability to score.

It's not that the helldrake never dies, it just earns its points back every time.

Solid AA will knock them out fairly easily though and each new codex release means that an increasing number of armies have more viable tools deal with them.

The chaos book is better tan many people on dakka give it credit for. That said the reason people will constantly tell you to ad helldrakes to your list is they are arguably the best unit in the game.

Plague marines are good but IMO suffer the same problem as all of the cult units suffer. They are expensive but without ATSKNF they are to easy to sweep and wipe out in 1 turn.

lol defilers suck throw away the book .

CSM rock face with the best two close combat weapons in the game axe of blind fury and black mace.

best vector striker in the game hell turkey

Awesome flamer on the turkey

bio flying DP's are the best FMC's in the game.

Demon allies are solid.

Yeah this dex totally sucks.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Hotsauceman1, which big units are you saying got nerfed? 'Cause chaos space marines cost LESS than most regular marines, and have more options. Some of their units may be less than optimal, but that doesn't mean they're useless.

kb305, want to back that up?

Defilers are crap, can barely do jack.
And the forgefiend is bs3 in a space marine army.

I like my defiler... Way more expensive now, but it still blows holes in pretty much everything, granted I only play small games with my chaos right now though...

But way to go OP. I plan on using a heldrake at some point, but it's not high on my priority list. I want noise marines, and predators xD And as I said, I like my defiler.

Heldrakes may be awesome, but some people see them as the be all end all of chaos


Von Chogg

Pony_law wrote:
The chaos book is better tan many people on dakka give it credit for. That said the reason people will constantly tell you to ad helldrakes to your list is they are arguably the best unit in the game.

Plague marines are good but IMO suffer the same problem as all of the cult units suffer. They are expensive but without ATSKNF they are to easy to sweep and wipe out in 1 turn.

Since when can a fearless unit be swept?

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Edit: I should also add that in my immediate meta/flgs people don't use allied forces due to a few nimrods abusing it and wrecking the fun for everyone before I even started playing.

And this is why you can win without Helldrakes. The people you play with have obviously decided to make a conscious effort to avoid taking the most powerful options (even when, like allies, they don't break the game), so it's possible to win with a list that isn't the absolute best your codex can produce. But playing in a very anti-competitive environment doesn't make those powerful options any less powerful.

 Polonius wrote:

it's a flier with a turret weapon, so it can linger on the battlefield.

This is probably one of the worst part of it, but also the easiest to errata. It basically makes a 24" diameter death zone around anywhere it next flies to, rather than being bound to 12" from a 45 degree arc.