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Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




The Balor System

Hi everyone. What is the best way to kill a Necron Overlord with every single upgrade, with Tyranids. it seems impossible with his 4+ everliving and protocol not to mention mindshackles and phase shifter.

1750pts

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Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




You kill it
   
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Step 1: Apply more dakka.

Step 2: If that doesn't work? You failed to apply enough dakka.

Step 3: Repeat Step 1.

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Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




The Balor System

That wont work, it has a 2+, the only AP2 or 1 shot that nids have are the warp lances, bio plasma, and cataclysm

1750pts

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Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

6 attacks = 1 wound on a 2+ armour
And don't you have Rending on some melee attacks?

You can always try to get them to run and kill the unit with a Sweeping Advance.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







Schwarmfuhrer wrote:
That wont work, it has a 2+, the only AP2 or 1 shot that nids have are the warp lances, bio plasma, and cataclysm


You don't need ap2. `You need more dakka. As in, more shots, more chances for him to fail a save, not better shots, just more of them.

6 lasguns are just as powerfull as one lascannon on 2+ armour, mathematically, for instance.

Just flood the thing. IF you still struggle to kill it, then just tarpit it under a huge pile of fearless gaunts. You don't need to kill it if it's stuck in combat all game wit ha cheap unit.
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

Correction, 6 WOUNDS = 1 wound on 2+ armor, statistically.

Not to mention there should be some things in their like monstrous creatures who have high T and can instant kill the overlord.

Of course he still might stand up again due to ever-living, but those are the breaks.

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Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

I wouldn't use a MC
The Overlord has T5 and 3++, it will probably beat a MC in combat.

And yes, it are all statistics.
But if you put 30 hits on it, you should expect the Overlord to die.
   
Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




The Balor System

But the overlord has everliving plus reanimation, i never thought of sweeping advance, that would probably work the best. If no models died in close combat, for instance a hive tyrant vs a overlord how would sweeping advance work?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe shooting at it with 20 devilgaunts will work

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/20 00:10:47


1750pts

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Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine







Schwarmfuhrer wrote:
But the overlord has everliving plus reanimation, i never thought of sweeping advance, that would probably work the best. If no models died in close combat, for instance a hive tyrant vs a overlord how would sweeping advance work?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe shooting at it with 20 devilgaunts will work


Good luck getting the Necron player to agree that Sweeping Advance negates Everliving. My group's Necron player threatened to pack up and leave if we tried to play it that way. Apparently, he doesn't think Necrons have enough advantages

Really hope they FAQ that in the next round...but of course, given how every other conflict has been resolved in favor of the Necrons, it probably will end up that EL works against SA.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






"No save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over"
Everliving does not apply

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Dakka Veteran





The consensus that I was told on the rules board here on dakka is that if an EL necron dies in combat prior to Sweeping advance, it comes back since it was a casualty and the EL marker is placed at wound allocation and not end of combat. If the EL necron is still standing and then gets swept it's gone for good.

So one way to kill them is to refuse the challenge nd have other units in base contact with him. Let your other units swing and take him (or better yet his unit) out.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/20 02:09:50


 
   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer





The Plantations

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
"No save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over"
Everliving does not apply


Pg 27, end on the first bullet, full sentence

Unless specified otherwise, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.


EL and RP happen at the end of the phase, and as stated in the Necron Codex (second paragraph of RP rules:
At the end of each phase, after any Moral Checks have been taken and after any fallback moves have been made...


EL happens after the sweeping advance sub-phase and can resurrect an Overlord.

One way to counter this however is to consolidate right on the EL marker and spread your unit out. This makes sure the OL can't resurrect by not letting it come back within 3" of the EL marker, but over 1" from any enemy unit,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unholyllama wrote:
The consensus that I was told on the rules board here on dakka is that if an EL necron dies in combat prior to Sweeping advance, it comes back since it was a casualty and the EL marker is placed at wound allocation and not end of combat. If the EL necron is still standing and then gets swept it's gone for good.

So one way to kill them is to refuse the challenge nd have other units in base contact with him. Let your other units swing and take him (or better yet his unit) out.


EL markers are placed whenever the model is removed as a casualty, not as a part of wound allocation. If an OL died moving on deadly terrain, an EL marker will still be placed during the movement phase.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/20 02:44:24


 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Do not, under any circumstances, attempt to kill it with a Monstrous Creature or Tyranid Prime, Mindshackle Scarabs will ruin your day if you do. The best way to take out an Overlord is to overwhelm it with cheap troops. Even if you don't kill it, it will spend the whole game in a gaunt tarpit.

As far as Ever-living vs a Sweeping Advance, Ever-living can be used as long as you're removed as a casualty, Sweeping Advance removes models as casualties, therefore you can still make an Ever-living roll.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
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Boise, ID. US

2 units of 30 devil guants, 180 str 4/6 (not sure) shots well Ron his day as well as the unit he is with, also try psykic scream or doom of malantai. If he makes his everliving, repeat. He had to fail eventually.
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




Juneau, AK

One tactic an opponent figured out against me: Kill an Overlord in close combat with mass numbers/terminators/whatever. Use your D6 consolidation to spread your troops out in such a way that there is no way the Overlord can be placed within 3" of his EL counter and still be more than 1" from your troops. If the model can't be placed, it can't come back, and stays dead.

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Netherlands

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Good luck getting the Necron player to agree that Sweeping Advance negates Everliving. My group's Necron player threatened to pack up and leave if we tried to play it that way.

That's not what I am talking about
Sweeping Advance will kill the rest of his unit, so he doesn't have any Warriors left to Look Out, Sir! and you can easily outswarm it or cover it with wounds.
Apparently, he doesn't think Necrons have enough advantages
Necrons are a strong army, that is no excuse to deny them legal things.
It's like saying they cannot use Heavy Support because "they have enough advantages".
But I don't think this thread is the place to redo this 15-page discussion again.
Really hope they FAQ that in the next round...but of course, given how every other conflict has been resolved in favor of the Necrons, it probably will end up that EL works against SA.

What conflicts?
   
Made in us
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Kangodo wrote:

Really hope they FAQ that in the next round...but of course, given how every other conflict has been resolved in favor of the Necrons, it probably will end up that EL works against SA.

What conflicts?


Past conflicts such as JotWW versus EL, Imotekh's Lord of Lightning versus flyers, MSS activating force weapons, and embarked units on a Night Scythe taking hits when it crashes have all been ruled in favor of the Necrons, often with no clear reason. For this particular discussion, the conflict is this:

RAW: Unless specified otherwise, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

Is EL a special rule? Yes it is. Does EL specifically say that it works against SA? No it doesn't.

Heck, per the Codex, a model with EL that is part of a unit when it is removed as a casualty can't ever come back if the unit is wiped out, but a FAQ directly contradicted that, so now they can in most conditions.
   
Made in cn
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

I love the whole "win, consolidate, spread out" method. It makes me think about the combatants taking some extra time after the combat to stand around and wait, then shoot/stab any of the Necron parts that keep moving. Very flavorful, couldn't have worked out any better if they'd planned it that way (come to think of it, they might have, but this is GW we're talking about)

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BrianDavion wrote:
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Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

It's a holdover from their 2e rules where they couldn't WBB within 2" of an enemy model, so it probably was planned out that way.



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on the hole EL after sweep bit... the precursor to a sweeping advance is a failed leadership test, which results in a fallback. The sweeping advance roll is merely to see if the unit is caught before it gets a chance to run. So as soon as the test is failed, any RP/EL tokens are lost per the FAQ, and any destroyed thereafter cannot be placed, because (from my knowledge) a unit that is falling back cannot place RP/EL tokens.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/20 18:41:18


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





St. Louis, MO

Take it to YMDC. This is not the place to argue about rules.

Anyway, as someone who plays both armies, mass gaunts or gargoyles is your go to option. MCs or other strong single models are just going to get mindshackled, where the mass gribblies won't care if one turns on his buddies. Unless he's running in a CCB, you'll take him or his squad down through sheer mass of wounds.

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The Plantations

 StarHunter25 wrote:
on the hole EL after sweep bit... the precursor to a sweeping advance is a failed leadership test, which results in a fallback. The sweeping advance roll is merely to see if the unit is caught before it gets a chance to run. So as soon as the test is failed, any RP/EL tokens are lost per the FAQ, and any destroyed thereafter cannot be placed, because (from my knowledge) a unit that is falling back cannot place RP/EL tokens.


The Faq only states that if a unit falls back and runs off the table all of the RP/EL counters are gone. The difference is that the only way a unit will take further causalities is via being wiped out by a Sweeping advance with negates RP because of the unit being wiped out. That's probably why EL doesn't add to the RP pool because that could potentially give Necrons a way to survive a sweeping advance

The thing about that is dying during a sweep attack is after the fall back sub phase that clears the RP counters (neither the codex or the Faq say anything about EL and fall back actions). The Necron codex states that whenever the model is removed from play, so an EL marker would be placed after the counter removal/fall back sub phase, and the EL role would take place at the very end of the Assault Phase along with all of the other RP/EL roles.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

ClassicCarraway wrote:
Kangodo wrote:

Really hope they FAQ that in the next round...but of course, given how every other conflict has been resolved in favor of the Necrons, it probably will end up that EL works against SA.

What conflicts?


Past conflicts such as JotWW versus EL, Imotekh's Lord of Lightning versus flyers, MSS activating force weapons, and embarked units on a Night Scythe taking hits when it crashes have all been ruled in favor of the Necrons, often with no clear reason. For this particular discussion, the conflict is this:

RAW: Unless specified otherwise, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

Is EL a special rule? Yes it is. Does EL specifically say that it works against SA? No it doesn't.

Heck, per the Codex, a model with EL that is part of a unit when it is removed as a casualty can't ever come back if the unit is wiped out, but a FAQ directly contradicted that, so now they can in most conditions.


You're right, Ever-living won't save the Overlord and he'll die, then you place a token and the Overlord gets his roll to come back well after the Sweeping Advance is over and is therefore no longer restricting special rules from saving him.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




The Balor System

What I think is correct and what I would do now is tell my opponent that if the Overlord died in the combat before the sweeping advance he would get EL but if he got sweeping advanced he's gone

1750pts

What I like eating
 
   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer





The Plantations

Schwarmfuhrer wrote:
I'm going to ignore what is being posted here and what I would do now is tell my opponent that if the Overlord died in the combat before the sweeping advance he would get EL but if he got sweeping advanced he's gone


Fixed that for you.
Several of us have explained the wordings in both the rulebook, the faq's and the codex. Sequential logic dictates that an EL marker goes down during a Sweeping Advance.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




And then cannot be rolled for, because doing so breaks the rule stating no rule can save the *unit*, and the *unit* will take no further part in the game. (for them the battle is OVER)
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And then cannot be rolled for, because doing so breaks the rule stating no rule can save the *unit*, and the *unit* will take no further part in the game. (for them the battle is OVER)


Except for the fact that Ever-living does not prevent the model from dying and the timing of the Ever-living roll happens long after the Sweeping Advance, you're right, which makes you nearly completely wrong.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer





The Plantations

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And then cannot be rolled for, because doing so breaks the rule stating no rule can save the *unit*, and the *unit* will take no further part in the game. (for them the battle is OVER)


The full rule is written as such:

The destroyed unit is immediately Removed as causalities. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can save them; for them the battle is over


And from the Necron Codex:
If a model with this special rule is removed from play as a casualty, do not add a RP counter to it's unit. Instead place an EL counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase roll for this counter, just as you would for RP


Adding to the rule that Codex Rules trump BRB Rules (Unless otherwise specified), RAW/RAI states that when the OL dies, it gets to place an EL marker.
Because it is placed after the fall back/RP removal sub-phase trigger, it is placed and stays. Then the OL dies, and at the total end of the turn's Assault phase, it, along with all other RP/EL rolls are made.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/21 18:33:58


 
   
 
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