Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Reducing rank width isn't always great. You can get less units in B2B contact and thus get less attacks. Like, imagine if a special infantry unit was 3 ranks. Sure, a conga line would be steadfast forever, but they're only ever going to get 1 attack. So basically it's only good for sitting there and dying. I don't think that's what you're trying to do with cavalry.

MI and MC usually have a ton of attacks and wider bases, so they are fine with only needing 3.

I suppose a decent offset to making cavalry require only 4 models per rank would be giving them devastating charge or something similar. That way the models that do make it in, hurt more. Of course, then you run the risk of overdoing it in regards to the Bret Lance Formation, but let's be real, Brets aren't exactly owning everything to start with.

Well, there are a few rules I'd like to see changed:

1) The entire magic phase. As it stands, it seems far, far too random:

- What spells your wizard has are determined at random
- Power dice are determined entirely at random
- Whether you get extra dice for your wizards is random
- Whether you successfully cast a spell is random
- Whether you succeed in dispelling a spell is random
- Whether you are allowed to dispel a spell is random
- Whether you miscast is random
- What happens when you miscast is completely random

There are elements of choice (which spells to cast, how many dice to throw), but overall it just seems like the magic phase comes down far too much to dice rolls. Furthermore, Winds of Magic (arguably the most important roll) is completely random and virtually nothing can change it. Roll snake-eyes in a crucial turn? Enjoy skipping an entire phase of the game for no reason.

I'd also like to see the miscast table change so that a wizard needs to be throwing at least 4 dice before he can roll Power Drain or Dimensional Cascade.

e.g. Roll 1d6 and add dice used to cast spell:
3-5: Detonation
6-7: Magical Feedback
8-9: Calamitous Detonation
10: Power Drain
11+ Dimensional Cascade

3) Change Killing Blow to 'all to-wound rolls of 6 ignore armour and regeneration saves' (HKB remains the same). Essentially, it no longer insta-kills characters, but can work on any unit type.

4) Steadfast gives some benefit to unstable units.

1.) Cannons - Much MUCH too game changing.

2.) Charge Attacks - Cavalry, large bases, and monster bases should get charge attacks.

Man, this is a tough choice, made tough by the fact that I haven't played WHFB in 4+ years...

Sniper Cannons are pretty annoying and IME too good at insta-gibbing monsters; maybe reduce it to D3 wounds? Maybe give all monsters a Ward Save? I don't know.

Making terrain actually have some kind of effect other than removing rank bonuses and "D6 Random effect"?

I think the biggest change I would like to see would be:
No more Irresistible Force. Miscast happens on Double 1's.

EDIT: Oh, oh, read the first page of the thread, totally forgot about guessing, so, as an alternative to my cannon suggestion is basically what others said; pre-measuring out! Range-guessing in!

There is only a couple of armies with cannons, so to me it doesn't seem like to big a deal leaving them how they are.
they still miss their targets and can misfire. the Dwarfs don't have magic, the most powerful phase in the game so they need something like cannons to balance it IMO

How about unit champions only being allowed to accept challenges and not issue them.
i find it really annoying when your combat lord (potentially on a dragon) flies into combat only to be held up by some pesky unit upgrade for a whole turn. and then there's steadfast.

Change steadfast so that it can be cancelled by engaging a stead fast unit on at least 2 facings. Should promote some more tactical play, and it gets rid of the reliance on magic to break them.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Have more terrain that blocks line of sight (forests and hills).

-Matt

THIS.

I really miss being able to move stuff across the board without laser-guided cannonballs blowing up my lovingly built & painted big gribblies. As it stands now big monsters are just free VPs to your opponent.

Im not sure.
I prefer the old skirmisher rules to the current ones....
But at the same time ii prefer the old Artillery and crew are seperate rules as they made more sense. If your crew lost their achine, they could move to another and help with that one.

1) The whole winds of magic to have some degree of certainty

2) Wizards can choose half their spells rounded down and the rest is still randomly chosen. Thus:

Level 1: 1 random spell
Level 2: 1 random spell + 1 chosen spell
Level 3: 2 random spells + 1 chosen spell
Level 4: 2 random spells + 2 chosen spells

3) Channelling attempts are improved by +1 for every level. Thus:

Level 1: 6+ to channel
Level 2: 5+ to channel
Level 3: 4+ to channel
Level 4: 3+ to channel

This will go a long way in decreasing the randomness of the magic phase

3) Cannons shooting adjust their line by scattering D6 inches at half their range. Thus a cannon with 60" range declare the line they are shooting, then at the 30" mark that point scatters 6" and the line is adjusted as required.

Hmm, there's a few I'd change honestly:
1) All disruption breaks steadfast. It makes cavalry flank charging extremely effective before the reform and, if the enemy is engaged on two fronts, it's pretty doomed. Seems fairly logical too - how could you be "steadfast" whilst disrupted? Monsters should always be steadfast when not disrupted and maybe disrupt units on the charge - the current rules make no sense in that regard (I don't care how many goblins you have, a dragon should make them think twice about hanging around).
2) Test or die spells changed. I've mentioned this before, but they're so ridiculously effective that they're better at killing tough monsters than 2 cannons, which are S10 D6 wounds. If that's not absurd, I don't know what is. Solution - allow ward saves, look out sirs and make them only D3 wounds. Still very effective, less general snipes, more mitigation by expensive gear.
3) Cannons should just do D3 wounds again and not be able to wound out of LOS with bounces. It's pretty annoying to lose a Stegadon in one shot but cannons still need to be effective for armies which have them and little alternative (cough dwarfs cough). They should be powerful, but not too good - D3 wounds means that it's still effective when it hits, which is generally 50-75% of shots. That means that 2 cannons firing at one Terrorgheist will, on average, inflict about 3 wounds. Seems reasonable to me, especially when war machines are so easily removed nowadays. Maybe it's too weak, but there should actually be some reason to take bolt throwers beyond cool factor.
4) Magic returned to 7e rules. Much more certainty, much more balanced IMO. At absolute minimum, caster level should determine dice thrown, not just the current cap of 6 dice for all (aka my lv2 wizard can suicide 6 dice pit of shades with little downside).
5) Skirmishers contract AFTER the charge is made, and close towards a model in combat. None of these silly impossible charges where it automatically fails due to contracting then automatically going back to loose formation.
6) When charging, if you can't close the door, your opponent must. None of these silly "must remain X inches from other units" either, movement trays make this fairly clear and even if they didn't, it's not so hard to figure out that a rule like this need exist. Again, this is too exploitable by making impossible charge situations.
7) "Pile in" moves of up to 3" if you drop out of combat for any reason, e.g. fighting a long single rank of models with three units (front and 2 flanks), the front striking first; this would make the units on the flanks drop out of the combat if a casualty was removed from either side without this additional pile in.

I think that's about it though. I'm pretty happy with the rules as is honestly. Unfortunately, it looks like allies are on the horizon (yay...) so who know what will change next edition.

I second the monsters always having steadfast.

Also, disruption should break steadfast.

Change the turn order to what 40K uses ie. Move, shoot/magic, Assault/charge, close combat. So that you don't charge during movement, then do your magic and shoot and then come back to the charges you made I just feel like it flows better if you make your charges then go strait into close combat also your "march" movements would also happen at the same time the same as your running in 40K
or
Adding new charge reactions such as making a swift reform (if you would normally be able to do so)
or
Allowing Units to move sideways (up to half their movement) while in CC to get more models in base contact. That way if your opponent makes a charge against unit A and ends up also engaged with 2 models in unit B then Unit B can scoot in and actually be useful in the fight.

I think single models on their own should have their front arc increased to 180 degrees.

I get that a formation can't turn quickly but why a warmachine probably weighing a a couple of tonnes can be pivoted in any direction it damn well pleases to shoot and a single model is stumped if something marches past him is beyond me.

Which brings me to my next point warmachines should have a front arc, it takes time to turn an large warmachine and re-aim.
even if its that if it turns over 45 degrees its -1 to hit, over 90 degrees its -2 to hit.

As many have said already, make flank/rear charges should negate steadfast. Would re-incentivise cavalry being taken.

Bring back the monster list where you put your character on the spider, scorpion etc..

(I had a skink chief on a scorpion)

Allow Monsters to add their remaining Wounds to their leadership value (up to a maximum value of 10) for close-combat break tests.

Monsters should not take panic tests if a model/unit with a smaller footprint is destroyed. I can understand a Hydra running away if another nearby Hydra gets killed, but if you kill a small chaff unit... the Hydra shouldn't care as much. Currently a LD5 Hydra is most likely to run off the board if not babysat with a leadership bubble.

Lots of good ideas.

I agree that sniper cannons are too good.

I really want real skirmishers back.

As for steadfast, just ditch it entirely and return to an outnumbering bonus to combat res. If you outhumber you get a +1, if you outnumber 2 to 1 it's a +2, if you outnumber 3 to 1 or greater, it's a +3. Still gives a nice big bonus to big blocks of infantry, but doesn't grind the game down to a halt.

Mmm. Tossup between:

Cannons fire by:
a) placing cannonball marker
b) scattering marker d6"-BS
c) rolling overshoot/bounce as normal.

That way they can't lazer-sniper characteres on 20mm bases from across the board, which is a ridiculous use for them IMHO.


ALTERNATIVELY

Infantry needs to be made better. Specifically medium infantry (i.e. everything between slaves and executioners). Right now they're too slow and too gak to be viable for any build that doesn't have to take them.

I'd suggest that spears give ASF against anything charging them to the front, and in addition either +1S or AP against cavalry/monstrous cavalry charging against the same.




For the record I do NOT agree with the people suggesting that disruption break steadfast. That would just give cav buses even MORE of an advantage in this game than they already have.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Mmm. Tossup between:

Cannons fire by:
a) placing cannonball marker
b) scattering marker d6"-BS
c) rolling overshoot/bounce as normal.

That way they can't lazer-sniper characteres on 20mm bases from across the board, which is a ridiculous use for them IMHO.

This or random movement. I hate that rule!

Remove premeasuring. Imagine 8th ed without all these issues. Suddenly war machines aren't a major pain any more. Monstrous cav gets reigned in somewhat. which in turn brings back BS shooting and infantry.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Remove premeasuring. Imagine 8th ed without all these issues. Suddenly war machines aren't a major pain any more. Monstrous cav gets reigned in somewhat. which in turn brings back BS shooting and infantry.

How does removing premeasuring stop war machines?

 vipoid wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Remove premeasuring. Imagine 8th ed without all these issues. Suddenly war machines aren't a major pain any more. Monstrous cav gets reigned in somewhat. which in turn brings back BS shooting and infantry.

How does removing premeasuring stop war machines?

Cannons are laser guided now because you always declare them 10" from the back because you can premeasure. By removing premeasuring, cannons have to guess where the bounces will take the cannonball.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Remove premeasuring. Imagine 8th ed without all these issues. Suddenly war machines aren't a major pain any more. Monstrous cav gets reigned in somewhat. which in turn brings back BS shooting and infantry.

How does removing premeasuring stop war machines?

Cannons are laser guided now because you always declare them 10" from the back because you can premeasure. By removing premeasuring, cannons have to guess where the bounces will take the cannonball.

All guessing ever did was reward the people who had a knack for it or were good with math and punish the people with bad depth perception. I shouldn't have a better cannon just because I have an eye for distance. In the hands of an experienced user with a good eye, cannons were just as laser guided back in the day as they are now. I think the better answer to cannons is d3 wounds rather than d6 and possibly a Strength reduction.

I'd change steadfast. Steadfast now means you take a Ld penalty at HALF whatever you lost the combat by.

Lose combat by 4? Minus 2. It would provide a benefit without having things like "I won this combat by 12, take a test on rerollable ld10 because steadfast...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Remove premeasuring. Imagine 8th ed without all these issues. Suddenly war machines aren't a major pain any more. Monstrous cav gets reigned in somewhat. which in turn brings back BS shooting and infantry.

How does removing premeasuring stop war machines?

Cannons are laser guided now because you always declare them 10" from the back because you can premeasure. By removing premeasuring, cannons have to guess where the bounces will take the cannonball.

All guessing ever did was reward the people who had a knack for it or were good with math and punish the people with bad depth perception. I shouldn't have a better cannon just because I have an eye for distance. In the hands of an experienced user with a good eye, cannons were just as laser guided back in the day as they are now. I think the better answer to cannons is d3 wounds rather than d6 and possibly a Strength reduction.

Prwecisely, play against a carpenter sometime lol.

For cannons I'd sat the initial is S10 d6. The bounce is S6 D3.

Give me power dice depending on how many Wizard levels I've got on the table. Also delete the entire Horde rule, it really, really doesn't add anything to the game.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Give me power dice depending on how many Wizard levels I've got on the table. Also delete the entire Horde rule, it really, really doesn't add anything to the game.

While I think the number of wizards you have should be a factor in dice generation, it should not be a 1-1 ratio. Thats what it was in 7th, and 25 power dice High Elf or Daemon armies were zero fun to play against. Magic was actually more broken back then.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Give me power dice depending on how many Wizard levels I've got on the table. Also delete the entire Horde rule, it really, really doesn't add anything to the game.

While I think the number of wizards you have should be a factor in dice generation, it should not be a 1-1 ratio. Thats what it was in 7th, and 25 power dice High Elf or Daemon armies were zero fun to play against. Magic was actually more broken back then.

As opposed to hardcapping it at never letting you cast spells with more than two wizards a turn in 8th? I know I play High Elves and my perspective on this is biased but there's got to be a middle ground that lets me play my army without making the game no fun for everyone else.

Do you really need more than 3ish wizards? a Lvl4 and 1-2 lvl1-2s.

The current system isn't perfect, but its far better than the static system that 7th had.

I would improve the system as follows,

Channeling is successful on a 5+, and in addition when channeling each wizard rolls a number of channel dice equal to his wizard level.

The winds of magic roll remains as 2D6. But the cap on dice is increased to 16.

I'd like a bit more balance between low level and high level wizards.

A Lv4 usually costs as much as 2 Lv2 wizards, but is leagues better - gaining twice the bonus to cast and dispel.

Some sort of bonus for choosing multiple, lower level wizards instead would be nice.

The bonus is that you double your channeling attempts and the number of lores you can take.