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Yes, took 104 shoota shots, 18 Big Shoota shots. Out of the 104, 73 hit, and 11 Big Shootas shots hit. Out of the 73, 46 wounded and only 8 Big Shootas wounded. Saves were 16 1's and 7 2's, If I failed to kill it with 2, I would have 48 more shoota shots, with 9 Big Shootas.

This was better than average for me, but when it all boils down even if I did half as well with the shooting, I would still have eliminated it. If It survived all 3 units shooting at it, I would have charged it and certainly taken it out.

 Sleg wrote:
Yes, took 104 shoota shots, 18 Big Shoota shots. Out of the 104, 73 hit, and 11 Big Shootas shots hit. Out of the 73, 46 wounded and only 8 Big Shootas wounded. Saves were 16 1's and 7 2's, If I failed to kill it with 2, I would have 48 more shoota shots, with 9 Big Shootas.

This was better than average for me, but when it all boils down even if I did half as well with the shooting, I would still have eliminated it. If It survived all 3 units shooting at it, I would have charged it and certainly taken it out.

nvm

 Sleg wrote:
Yes, took 104 shoota shots, 18 Big Shoota shots. Out of the 104, 73 hit, and 11 Big Shootas shots hit. Out of the 73, 46 wounded and only 8 Big Shootas wounded. Saves were 16 1's and 7 2's, If I failed to kill it with 2, I would have 48 more shoota shots, with 9 Big Shootas.

This was better than average for me, but when it all boils down even if I did half as well with the shooting, I would still have eliminated it. If It survived all 3 units shooting at it, I would have charged it and certainly taken it out.

You had a 73/104 hit rate with BS2? then 11/18 also with BS2?

Tactical_Genius wrote:

You had a 73/104 hit rate with BS2? then 11/18 also with BS2?

This isn't playing the averages, this is what I actually rolled for this shooting turn. Other shooting turns I rolled below average, which is why when confronting the Doom, I was using 3 units, because I felt that only 1 would be able to charge and attack in Melee, no matter how well or poorly I rolled, the Doom was not going to survive, and that is exactly how green tide works.
If I threw enough wounds, eventually my opponent will roll enough 1's and 2's (the exact same percentage 33.33 to fail as I had to succeed) - so Out of a possible 152 shoota shots (51 hits), 27 Big Shoota (9 Hits). Wounds would be shootas - 25, big shootas - 6. Failed saves 3 on shootas with 2 from Big Shootas.
Assault would be with the unit that had the Warboss, and suffered the least casualties but 20 + the warboss get into melee (lets say it killed a few with overwatch or on int 4, but might have taken wounds in the process so that number wouldn't matter, because it wouldn't change the number attacking it). 60 4+ strikes, 30 wounds, 10 failed saves. Then the warboss on int 1 with PK, 5 3+ strikes, 3 to 4 wounds, any failed wounds it is dead, so even if I had not caused 1 wound with all the shooting and melee with the Boyz, Doom would still be removed, if it failed to save from any of the Warbosses attacks,

In 1 game with the SAG I rolled 3 twice - does this improve the average of rolling a 3 on 2d6 - no it doesn't the law of averages stays the same.

While I still think his strategy can be improved, there is no need to beat on him for getting lucky dice. That's how probability works. If you have a lot of rolls with a low chance of success, it's possible to get results far above the average, even though it's not likely. In return, his SAG got all the bad dice.

Also, the doom probably could have done more, but not much. Assuming it arrived via deep strike, it could have shot its blast (maximum 5 hits if Sleg properly spread out), plus using its leech twice, for an average of one dead ork per mob (ork ld was 10, the average for 3d6 is 10.5), for a total of 11 wounds before it died, one more than it actually did.

I think that bringing more kannons would have fixed the problem much more elegantly though - a kannon wound instant-deathes the doom, no matter how many wounds it has left, and T7 gretchin aren't exactly a good target for it before it hits eight or more wounds.

There is no "law of averages" though. If anything, there is a definition for average, which says that it when rolling a large number of dice, the total sum of all results divided by the number of rolls is going to be very close to sum of all possible results divided by the number of possible results.

Which really means nothing.

To really mathhammer something you need to look at the standard deviation of all possible results. However, calculating it is very time consuming and most people have either don't remember it from school/college or have never learned/understood it in the first place. That's why everyone is using the much easier to calculate averages which give somewhat of a ballpark figure of what to expect.

Since you are just rolling two dice for a SAG, getting a result relatively far below (or above) average is much more like than when rolling 60 dice for a unit of shoota boyz. That's called the law of large numbers, an ork's best friend in statistics.

I think that we can all agree given the current state of the ork codex it is very hard to win. There is not much in the ork codex worth taking. Our army wide special rules, waaagh and mob up, are very lack luster and every unit in the codex is overpriced. There is no reliable way to get your boyz across the table. Trukks are just bad, looted wagons worse and battle wagons are just ok. Our upgrades are even worse. For a nob with a power klaw you can literally have 7 boyz, for a big shoota you can have another boy, for a big choppa another boy, for a rocket almost 2 boyz. An ork boy is not even really a decent choice of something to take. For the same cost as an ork boy you can have a kroot who has a simmilar enough stat line but also has steath ruins, infiltrate and, outflank. The fact of the matter is if you play orks expect to loose. Against a halfway decent opponent you will not be able to win. Just play them as a fun punching bag for your opponent and hope our codex comes soon.

Orks are not nearly that bad off. If you're losing literally every match the problem might not be in the codex.

You can say that i guess however, I disagree. The ork codex IS that bad... A DA assault marine is the same price as a stormboy, a kroot the same as an ork boy, A mega nob costs more than a terminator. With prices like these you cannot expect to win.


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Oh and just to explain what my previous post said...
stormboy: a boy witha jumpack that goes an extra d6 but may crash and kill the boy
Space marine with a jumpack: 3+ save, higher strength and leadership, higher BS, has and they shall know know fear.
which would you rather have for your points?
Ork boy: fearless if they are in a squad of more than 10 6+ armor save same s, ws, ld. fet fleet for 1 turn per game. have furious charge, have same I and LD, better toughness 1 more attack.
Kroot: a pretty poor troop choice for the tau. Have infiltrate move through cover stealth forest, outflank if you take a kroot hound it even has acute senses, access to sniper rounds. Better BS longer range gun.
Which would you rather have for your points?
Megga nob: almost equal to a terminator marine in every way except. NO IVN save! this make them pretty much terrible because if your not shooting or attacking these guys with ap2 then you are a horrible player. they are 5 more points than a terminator... the bad terminators... you can get terminators for as much as 13 points less than these guys.

enough said or would you like more xamples of units that are better than ork units at less cost? How about we compair the rhino/drop pod to the ork trukk? or the ork boy to a termigaunt/hormagaunt?

Kroot are a poor troop choice?
Mega nobs suck?
AP 2 abounds?

Please compare a boy to a termagant. Please. The boy is better in nearly every way.

Regardless, if this is how you think then there's no chance ill convince you. There are successful ork players - in this very thread even. What you're saying is that their opponents are bad or they're lying. That's a poor stance to take.

rothrich, I agree with you, The 4th Edition Ork Codex can not be competitive enough to face off with any other army, without being extremely lucky with your die rolls. Creating a competitive force, you are left with only 7 units from a codex of 27 choices. Those units are:

Nob Bikers are the only unit that can challenge any opponent. they are extremely expensive and with low point games, they end up deathstar'ing your Orks. Goes without saying Warboss Biker is a must, it turns your Nobs into troops and is very hard to kill.

Lootas are always good and with 6th they got even better. They are also very easy to kill and should be the focus of any opponent to rid the board of them in the 1st turn. If you built a force with keeping them around beyond that, you built your force to lose even friendly games.

Thraka can survive almost anything, he can challenge, he makes Waaagh! worth casting. He's very expensive, slow and purposeful. He is great with a unit of Meganobs in a Battlewagon. I've also attached him to Snikrot and he did some serious damage.

Battlewagons the only vehicle that can limit what your opponent will shot at it with. The Def Rolla scares the pants off any opponent and if they are shooting the battlewagon instead of your Lootas it will be their loss if you never get to smash into their force.

Last is the Big Gunz, Kannons. Very cheap toughness 7 Grots. If you have a few points to spare and an open heavy support slot, these are always good to have around especially the BS 3.

Other than these few units, everything else is pretty much cannon fodder. Upgrading their weapons tends to be a waste of points, since they will probably never get to use them.

Orks can't shoot so they rely on a lot of dice to accomplish their goal. Single shot weapons are worthless, doesn't matter how powerful they are. Shootas are only good in 20+ units, Big Shootas are the same.

Full Gretchin units have a 50/50 *correction* 67/43 chance of routing at the loss of 9. They are only worth taking if you don't have any other options. And that's it for your troop options, upgrading to 'ard boyz is just another waste of points.

Yes, some of us Ork players are just sitting on our hands and hoping that GW does something nice for the Orks, because even by their own admission the current Orks will never be able to place in any of their tournaments.

termagaunts have access to poison and are fearless and have rage (I think) when outside of synaps range they are cheaper than a boy and have fleet for the entire game not just one turn. They only have 1 less attack and can be taken in large squad sizes as well. given the choice of termagaunts or ork boys i think that I would rather have the termagaunt.

I Don't think that meganobs suck I just think that they are far too expensive for what you get. 2 wounds is nothing compared to an inv sv and they should not be 5 points more than a terminator, they should be 5 points less than a terminator.

Wait that is a hormaguant...

Ok then termagaunts. They give you access to the tervagon as a troops choice which makes more and more termaguants. The tervagon continues to make more and more "free" termagaunts each turn while your squad of ork boys who were more expensive just die off. They also have access to an assault 3 gun and have a bs3 if I'm not mistaken.

Compared to a fire warrior kroots are considered the weaker choice in the tau codex for troops.


When I was at gamesday I played across from a new DA player who claimed to get stomped by his friends orks every time that they played. My friend played across from this ork player. The ork player moved his truck 6 in got out 6 in shot and then assaulted. Do you see what the ork player did wrong there? Meanwhile I was in assault with his friend. His friend had a singel unit of terminators. I had 2 units of zombies and a unit of chaos spawns. he finnished of one squad of zombies and then tried to consolidate. I told him that he was still in combat with my other two units and that he had to stay in the combat. He really had no clue as to what the rule was. It seems to me that many of people who play this game do not know the rules. Or maybe they are just to lazy to look something up if they do not know what the rule is. The fact of the matter is that the orks are the weakest codex in 40k by a lot. They should never win against any of the new codexes that have come in the past 3 years. They can win against some armies like the current SM dex, (that is going to change next month) other orks are a good fight for them, imperial guard can still be a good fight for them, but for the most part. orks should lose every time.

I can't believe that if the Orks lose most or all of their games, it must be either that list taken or how the Ork Player used them. Because in some people minds "the Ork can't be that bad - I always win when I field them."

The Truth is in the pudding. Just to list some things my Orks are facing: Drop Pods, Mowdoc, jaws of the world wolf, Eldrad, Doom of Mal'tai, Logan, Librarian, Heldrake, Long Fangs, Hive Guard, Khorne, Land Raider, Pathfinders, swarmlord, and on and on. The only thing that Orks have on their side is that most people are building their tournament list to take on Space Marines not Orks. thugh it gives them no advantage.

All I can say to people currently playing Super Winning 4th Edition Orks (Not using IA 8 Dread Mob to supplement or ally with, because it's not allowed at sanctioned events). Take this army to a REAL tournament (one is being held about once a month somewhere in the world) and actually prove GW wrong and get ranking because there isn't a player is currently ranked with an Ork army list.

First, I would recommend you tell the players you are up against, to build a real list, proxy if they have to. and put it up against your super duper Orks. If you are still winning more than 30% of your games. then you have cracked the code and are doing what no other player can do - you should quit your job and make a living playing 40k.

Sleg I saw this post and saw that you were getting beat up by all of these people. I had to step in and reinforce what you were saying. Lets just cross our fingers and hope that we get our dex before the nids get theirs. People want to say that sisters need it more because they only have a WD codex but their WD codex is better than out 4th ed written with 5th in mind codex...

rothrich wrote:
termagaunts have access to poison and are fearless when outside of synaps range they are cheaper than a boy and have fleet for the entire game not just one turn. They only have 1 less attack and can be taken in large squad sizes as well. given the choice of termagaunts or ork boys i think that I would rather have the termagaunt.

Hormagaunts. And with toxin sacs they're 2 points more than a boy. They're Fearless inside Synapse, not outside.
And they have no shooting attack. If you don't see how detrimental that is in 6th edition there's no point continuing. If you honestly would prefer Hormies over boys you're a fool. You do realize they're T3 right?

ok then termagaunts. They give you access to the tervagon as a troops choice which makes more and more termaguants. The tervagon continues to make more and more "free" termagaunts each turn while your squad of ork boys who were more expensive just die off. they also have access to an assault 3 and have a bs3 if im not mistaken.

So the only good thing about Termagants is the Tervigon as a troop.
And yes - they have access to an assault 3 gun. Which doubles their cost to almost double a boy.

Compared to a fire warrior kroots are considered the weaker choice in the tau codex for troops.

It depends entirely on the rest of the build. Kroot are nowhere near a bad troop.

The ork player moved his truck 6 in got out 6 in shot and then assaulted. Do you see what the ork player did wrong there?

Page 79 says you can disembark before or after moving the transport as long as it hasn't move over 6".
Page 79 explains you can disembark 6".
Open Topped allows you to assault after disembarking (page 33 Assault Vehicle).

Perhaps you could explain?

It seems to me that many of people who play this game do not know the rules.

Heh.

The fact of the matter is that the orks are the weakest codex in 40k by a lot. They sould never win agains any of the new codexes that have come in the past 3 years. They can win against some armies like the current SM dex, (that is going to change next month) other orks are a good fight for them, imperial guard can still be a good fight for them, but for the most part. orks should lose every time.

So you really are saying that Jidmah's opponents are dumb or that Jidmah is lying.
Cool, thanks for invalidating everything you say.


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Do you have some magic formula that says a KFF is worthless also?

Ithought that you could either shoot or assault. I must have gotten this confused with 5th ed. looking at the rulebook I do not see any restrictions about both shooting and assaulting. And I am not saying that anything is worthless I am saying that they are simply worth less than what they cost inside the codex. regardless termigants are fearless inside and have rage outside. 2 more points and my boyz could hack down any MC in the game? Sure ill take it thank you! and slugga boys who really are the ones we should be compairing them to might as well not have a shooting attack. they only hit 1/3 of the time and even when they do wound most of the time the hits get shrugged off by your opponent and they only lose 1 or 2 models out of the 30 shots you just made.The fact that termigaunts allow access to the tervigon is what makes them good. What of it? what do ork boys give you access to? The ork trukk.... If you are happy with the ork codex and think that there are others out there who need a new dex more than them please tell me who and why. I don't claim to know all the rules. If I don't know the rules I look them up.

rothrich wrote:
You can either shoot or assault after getting out of your trukk you cannot do both.

Citation required. There is no rule saying any such thing (as long as the weapons fired are Assault or Pistols).

I don't claim to know all the rules. If I don't know the rules I look them up.

So please - look this one up and prove me wrong. Instead of claiming others don't know the rules prove it.


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Edit: and it wasn't a 5th edition thing either.

You can't compare point costs across codexs - you just can't.
Perhaps ... Stop comparing and start trying to get value? If you consider your codex to be the bottom, you'll never get better.

I did look it up and apologize for being wrong. maybe it was 4th then I really don't know where I got this from. Like I said I am sorry. The thing is you can not get value from the orks. I have playde orks for years, I love orks however, I really just do not see a way to win with the dex in the current condition. They do not lose every time they just lose against armies that have newer codexes. They can do just fine against armies with 5th ed codexes. They are really no match for CSM DA or tau I know this because these are the armies that I play against time and time again. The DE are a verry beatable army necrons not so much. I am very tired of people on this thread calling one another a liar or saying that I called someone a liar. rigeld2.... Tell me with all honesty that the orks do not need any kind of update. That they are fine the way they are and that they can compete with any tourney list in the game. If you can show me a website where an ork player has won a tournament since 6th has dropped using only units from Codex: Orks I will be quiet and won't post again.

rothrich wrote:
The thing is you can not get value from the orks. I have playde orks for years, I love orks however, I really just do not see a way to win with the dex in the current condition. They do not lose every time they just lose against armies that have newer codexes. They can do just fine against armies with 5th ed codexes. They are really no match for CSM DA or tau I know this because these are the armies that I play against time and time again. The DE are a verry beatable army necrons not so much. I am very tired of people on this thread calling one another a liar or saying that I called someone a liar. rigeld2.... Tell me with all honesty that the orks do not need any kind of update. That they are fine the way they are and that they can compete with any tourney list in the game. If you can show me a website where an ork player has won a tournament since 6th has dropped using only units from Codex: Orks I will be quiet and won't post again.

You said that against a halfway decent opponent orks cannot win. Which means that the people who are winning with orks are either lying about winning or they're playing poor opponents.

I can't and have t ever said that orks don't need an update. But there's a world of difference between "need an update" and "bottom of the barrel can't ever win unless the opponent is a drooling moron." In my local meta orcs do okay. Not amazing, but okay. I've lost to very well focused and played Battlewagon lists and I've tabled an opponent using a very unfocused whatever looked good list.

OK then it seems like we can find some middle ground in here. The question is not really can they win or not? I Never said that anyone was lying about winning. Poor opponents... maybe they are poor opponents I really do not know. I think that the goal of any codex should be that all units in the codex have a place. This is not the case with the orks. There are just too many units that are very very weak. They need an update and they really really struggle to get a win. With great rolls on the ork part and poor rolls on your opponents parts you will probably win. however in pretty much every case if one player rolls really well all game and the other rolls very poor the whole game the player who rolls well will win every time not just "probably" win. It is a real shame when you cannot take units that you like because they have no value in game.

Every - literally, every - codex has units that are not worth taking. Pretending its something only orks suffer from is ludicrous.

And it's not just about rolls - the only time I rolled poorly in my Battlewagon games was for psyker powers. His Lootas only ever rolled 1s for number of shots.

Every build is scissors to another builds rock. If you're consistently getting stomped perhaps its time to remember the saying "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".

Whatever dude I'm done. I have tried to find middle ground with you. You apparently are just unable to compromise. The orks are a terrible army and are the bottom of the barrel if you want to believe it or not. If it makes you feel better about losing to them by believing that they are "just not that bad" then go ahead but I will not be responding to any more of your posts.

Yup - that post exemplifies "middle ground".

rigeld2 wrote:
Every - literally, every - codex has units that are not worth taking. Pretending its something only orks suffer from is ludicrous.

True, but orks have more than usual. Most armies have 1-2 units that are either utter trash (Vespid for instance) or CAN be viable but noone takes because they compete with a better alternative so noone takes them.

Useless Ork units include:
Kommandos
Burnas
Killa Kanz
Deffdreadz
Looted Wagons
Flash Gitz
Burna-Bommer
Blitza-Bommer

Not really useless but not as viable units include:

Deffkoptas (Useful, but with BS2 even though theyre TL they can be a waste of points easily)
Warbuggies (Alternative to Deffkoptas in some peoples mind)
Weirdboyz (3 Dakkajets pretty much demand you take a weirdboy, thats about all hes good for)
Warbikerz (Regular ones. They are overpriced and easy to get rid of for how strong they are)

There is a HUGE difference in worthless/almost worthless models between orks and other codexes. This is the problem orks have, we only have 2 viable lists and both can be countered easily (bikernobz or MANz following a wheeled force, green tide supported by loota/kannon fire). I can play my orks and have fun in a non-serious environment because i can bring units i have more fun with that might not perform as well as they should but i have more fun using them. Soon as the tournament gloves come off i get slaughtered because every other race has a 2-3 unit compilation in their army that cost maybe 500pts total that hardcounters the crap outta both these lists, or shuts it down enough to where i need some awesome rolls to win.
EDIT: And for the record all it takes to counter both these lists is a high volume of fire. Random big gun i know every army has to pop the BW if i have them, 30+ medium-strength shot spam to wipe me off the board as my 4+ or 5+ covers wont suffice against that much dakka.

Burnas are useless?

Hormagaunts
Genestealers
Rippers
Shrikes
Sky-Slashers
Pyrovore

That's just the codex I'm most familiar with. And really, the Pyrovore is bad enough to count twice.

Remember - I've not said that the ork codex is top tier.
But statements like "worst ever" "only wins vs bad opponents" etc... They're just plain wrong.

And ignoring allies in 6th edition is even more ludicrous

Yes burnas are useless. 15pts a pop, FAQ ruined their sole purpose (burnawagons), they have a t-shirt save and really nothing special in melee unless they dont shoot. And low enough numbers with that crap durability to be easy to push away even with just infantry fire.

Tyranids also have what more than TWICE the units in their codex than orks? and you still listed less units than i did.

But this isnt a comparing argument, this is about orks.
I agree ignoring allies in 6th is a pretty big mistake since theres some pretty insane lists coming about involving allies. But orks have no battlebrothers and all that i can think of that would be viable to bring youre better off allying orks in and bringing 2 30man blobs than you are using them as main force.
What would you bring, if anything, to help orks deal with other races countering their only viable lists so easily?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yes burnas are useless. 15pts a pop, FAQ ruined their sole purpose (burnawagons), they have a t-shirt save and really nothing special in melee unless they dont shoot. And low enough numbers with that crap durability to be easy to push away even with just infantry fire.

Burna wagons are still available. Instead of having 10 Burnas you have 9 Burnas and a Mek.

Tyranids also have what more than TWICE the units in their codex than orks?

Not counting characters it's 27 Tyranids 23 Orks unless I miscounted. Hardly twice.

and you still listed less units than i did.

I also forgot Warriors and Lictors. And many would say Carnifexes and Tyrant Guard.

I agree ignoring allies in 6th is a pretty big mistake since theres some pretty insane lists coming about involving allies. But orks have no battlebrothers and all that i can think of that would be viable to bring youre better off allying orks in and bringing 2 30man blobs than you are using them as main force.
What would you bring, if anything, to help orks deal with other races countering their only viable lists so easily?

Something to present a long range threat since the big weakness is being shot on the way in.

Vineheart, you forgot a few useless units from the orks
Nobs not on a bike
tankbustas
stormboyz

They are all way over costed and have limited in game uses.
really it is easier to list units that do have a use

shoota boyz
nob bikes
big gunz
lootas
big mek
warboss




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Tyrant guard allow you to take a prime with your tyrant... hardly useless, hormagaunts are great in large numbers with poison, they can do some serious damage to monsters, ask any player that uses them.

A walking Tyrant is not as good in 6th as a Flyrant. Which makes Tyrant Guard as useless as many of the "useless" units you've listed.

The mek "upgrade" is useless in a squad of burnas...

rothrich wrote:
The mek "upgrade" is useless in a squad of burnas...

Demonstrably false.
You can only wound what is in range of the weapons fired. That's ~8" for Template weapons. Even a Mek with a slugga (that's the pistol, right?) increases that by 4".

See, knowing rules is a good thing.