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A walking tyrant with tyrant guard and a prime is ridiculously tough! Carnefexes in squads of 3 are super tough. Hardly as bad as any of the units listed as useless for the orks...


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hahahah! sick that big shoota in there instead of another burna! or better yet take a rokkit or a kustom megga blaster! The mek doesn't even raise their leadership! You have no idea what you are talking about if you honestly think that being forced to take a mek in the place of another burna is a useful thing.

Carnifexes are as tough as 12 marines and cost about that much.

A walking Tyrant with A single guard and Prime is close to 400 points... And isn't as tough as you think it's a good unit because of Iron Arm abuse, but you lose out on any chance of Skyfire in your army. Have fun with that.


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rothrich wrote:
hahahah! sick that big shoota in there instead of another burna! or better yet take a rokkit or a kustom megga blaster! The mek doesn't even raise their leadership! You have no idea what you are talking about if you honestly think that being forced to take a mek in the place of another burna is a useful thing.

Lets see... Burma wagons go out of style because of an FAQ that limits where wounds can be allocated.
With the swap of a single model Burna wagons are exactly as effective as they were before.

Yeah going from killing everything under the template to wiping out entire units is totally not useful. Sorry for knowing the rules and how they work.

you can take a harpy right? Honestly dude you are trying to say that nids need an update more than orks. Nids need an update too. why don't you take the tau and try to find as many useless units? Even blood angels are better off than orks maybe you can try to say that they need an update before orks... The next three codexes up are orks nids and IG. There is a reason for this. Nids and orks lack skyfire, have too many units that don't have a place in an army that is even built with the intention of a friendly game. They have NO builds that can be used for tournament play, They have tons of units in their dex that are either missing models or have models from the early 90's. But if you want me to say it I guess I will. Nids are better than orks. A good nid player should be able to stomp the orks if they take the right list.


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That wagon should never make it into range if you are a smart player.

Burnas are great in Dread Mob where they can, you know, actually get a fething trukk

MANz are alright, they should go on the useful list.

Theres other good stuff in Dread Mob as well. Grot Bomm, Supa Kannons, Grot Tanks... the GBL in particular approaches OP tier

Dakkamite, thank you for your opinion. However, my argument is that Codex: Orks is terrible and extremely hard to win with. Imperial armor books really don't count in my mind. You should not be FORCED to buy forgeworld. Forgeworld is a way to use units that are supposed to be supplemental for campaigns written out in the AI books. They really have no place in friendly games and are really not written with any kind of balance in mind the way that the like new hardback codecies seem to be.

rothrich wrote:
you can take a harpy right?

And Harpies only have blast weapons. Guess what doesnt work on Flyers?

Honestly dude you are trying to say that nids need an update more than orks. Nids need an update too.

No, I'm not trying to say that. At all. I'm saying that you have a very negative attitude about the ork codex and that's stopping you from making and using workable lists.

why don't you take the tau and try to find as many useless units? Even blood angels are better off than orks maybe you can try to say that they need an update before orks... The next three codexes up are orks nids and IG. There is a reason for this. Nids and orks lack skyfire, have too many units that don't have a place in an army that is even built with the intention of a friendly game. They have NO builds that can be used for tournament play, They have tons of units in their dex that are either missing models or have models from the early 90's. But if you want me to say it I guess I will. Nids are better than orks. A good nid player should be able to stomp the orks if they take the right list.

So - a codex is either at the top or worthless to you?
That's what it sounds like you're saying, and that's plain silly.

That wagon should never make it into range if you are a smart player.

Oh - so it's a threat? Gee, that means it needs to be dealt with.
It's almost like multiple threats marching at your opponent are a good thing...
And wagons cross the table all the time. 12" + 6" flat out + 6" the second turn is lots of templates being dropped.
You're acting like Burna wagons were never a thing.

That FAQ needs to be FAQ'd honestly. I agree with you on that another gun increases the "kill range" but i come across people all the time, even those that USED to use flamer units, that think since its a different strength its not extending the wound pool range. I can see their argument because otherwise wtf was the point of the FAQ? i'd prefer to just ignore it all together but of course people wont take that too kindly when it means removing 10+ more models due to a burna wagon getting in range somehow.
Its a gimick tactic anyway so i'd rather just avoid the headaches of trying to convince 50% of the people i face theyre reading the rule wrong. When someone who used to run drop pod flamers stops running them because he thinks the other guns dont increase the kill zone, and he normally loves that unit, its pretty much impossible to change his mind since all his arguments will be "My unit does that but not anymore! So neither does yours!"

im severely hoping the next gaming group i find when i move in a few weeks doesnt have anyone like that. I rarely use flame templates, but this FAQ makes me not even want to use them in a fun game (mass burnas WAAAAAGH!)

And yea i did forget tankbustas/stormboyz/footnobz lol woops. One of the big gunz is pointless too since it defeats the point of big gunz...dirt cheap and still does something. Zzap Kannons are strong, but expensive and suicidal as any 11 or 12 rolls kills a grot and it costs 15pts more per gun (almost double) for an AP2 and a possible strength increase, average strength cut.

EDIT: And harpies are a joke i'd rate them weaker than kommandos lol. If they had a 3+ armor i think they would be somewhat viable but 4+ is penned sooooo easy...the few times i ever saw one i just plastered it out of the sky with loota fire before it even got to shoot at my green tide.
And unless its a big game, orks rarely have more than 1 threat after bringing battlewagons to make burnas remotely effective to begin with. Its always either almost no boyz and 2 threatening things riding in the BWs, or enough boyz to do something rite proppa and only 1 threat (hence why i take bikernobz since they ride behind the wagons)

I wish you all the luck. Ive played orks for 5 years and can't seem to get anything out of them in this edition of shooting. Ive also played Tau for years and now that this new dex has dropped I havent seen an Ork player get a win against Tau. Ive fought Orks multiple times and Farsight Bomb (probably the thing you're going to see the most of and I know people are tired of hearing it's name) can and will kill 33.5 Boyz a turn from just shooting. Thats a squad of boyz dead every turn and theres isnt anything you can do about it. It rerolls to hit, ignores cover and rerolls ones to wound (farsights preferred enemy orks). It can declare stubborn so you wont sweep it plus it has Hit and Run at I5 so you can't tar pit the unit. Plus with the amount of attacks that unit has it will probably beat you in combat (21 attacks at S5, 14 attacks at S3, 4 attacks at S5 AP2, and 4 attacks at S4), and thats after you get overwatched by shots that reroll to hit and wounds of 1 due to farsights preferred enemy (Orks). Not trying to tell you there's no point in playing your army but after I skimmed your thread it didnt seem that anyone mentioned the most devastating unit in the game. I figured you had the right to know before it just surprised you. Plus given the knowledge you may be able to better prepare yourself for whats to come

Although considering how long this has gotten I probably missed the part where this was mentioned already.

Um, unless im missing something Farsights preferred enemy orks is only for him not his whole unit. So either his blade guarantees a kill, or his single plasma does not the whole squad.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Um, unless im missing something Farsights preferred enemy orks is only for him not his whole unit. So either his blade guarantees a kill, or his single plasma does not the whole squad.

You may want to read preferred enemy. "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..."

Preferred Enemy is a "if a unit contains at least one model with..."

Well shizz i totally flopped that one lol.

Guess that reinforces my beliefs that preferred enemy should never be on a specific race. It just gives you an unusual advantage that normally doesnt exist.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Well shizz i totally flopped that one lol.

Guess that reinforces my beliefs that preferred enemy should never be on a specific race. It just gives you an unusual advantage that normally doesnt exist.

I completely agree. As of right now I feel in a game between players of equal skill and average rolls Orks have absolutely no chance in winning against Tau. And if I remember correctly in the Farsight supplement the entire army gains the preferred enemy (Orks) special rule for free. This is completely ridiculous and that's coming from a Tau player.

Ran a green tide today. It was boring, cumbersome and tiring to play, and essentially an auto-win against armies that don't take the maximum number of templates permitted.

Never again.

The only time i'm running a green tide again is after taking some heavy duty painkillers.

Last time i ran one was a three-game tournament with 2 1/12 hour rounds, and my back was not appreciative...

I'm getting too old to green-tide these days, though there is something glorious about seeing 180+ orks on the table.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Well shizz i totally flopped that one lol.

Guess that reinforces my beliefs that preferred enemy should never be on a specific race. It just gives you an unusual advantage that normally doesnt exist.

I completely agree. As of right now I feel in a game between players of equal skill and average rolls Orks have absolutely no chance in winning against Tau. And if I remember correctly in the Farsight supplement the entire army gains the preferred enemy (Orks) special rule for free. This is completely ridiculous and that's coming from a Tau player.

Only in melee though (except Farsight and his unit ofc).

Yeah thats a big issue with green tide, i usually dont run more than 90 boyz because of it. So much time bent over. I move faster than most but its because im guesstimating good distances rather than actually looking at it, so im not 100% properly spaced (probably 1-3 more boyz hit by a pi plate than optimum spacing allows).
And my lower back has issues as it is, any idea how hard it is for someone with lower back problems to do 50+ situps in a minute to pass a military physical test every 6 months? My back HATES that test almost as much as i hate green tide bending me over the table (wow that sounded gay)

That is another reason why I wouldn't play Green Tide at the moment. It's way to taxing to play and there's some very hard counters for it that are very popular (artillery guard and Tau being the main two that come to mind).

That's exactly the reason I don't play green tide either. I am a pretty fast player (which gives me an excuse to get miffed when people take 40 minute turns) but green tide take soooooo long to play. I definitely wouldn't think it's a green tide though. One thunderfire cannon can almost destroy a whole mob in one go.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Ran a green tide today. It was boring, cumbersome and tiring to play, and essentially an auto-win against armies that don't take the maximum number of templates permitted.

Never again.

But wait - I thought it was literally impossible for orks to win unless their opponent is a fool!
Surely I haven't been misled!

What is the world coming to, I have to agree with rigeld here.

Orks are not bottom tier, most codexes still struggle against the tide. Few armies can put out the firepower to really threaten that many boys.

It's also not an auto lose to tau, it really depends on the mission being played. Most tau lists I've seen skimp on the troops choices so just kill their troop choices. Even if they can kill 1 mob of 30 boys a turn, after 5 turn the orks should still have a full mob left.

It seems most people shy away from the tide for other reasons (time, pain, tedious) than because they're "bottom tier."

Or in a tourney barely making it to turn 3 before times up. It could be clear you will probably win the game you just did not have enough time to get into position. I started Orks going towards green tide and quickly added other things after a few tourney's where I never finished a game. I don't like to be slow played and hate having a game come down to what turn we make it to rather than who would have actually won the game had it played out.

Although without green tide tau managed to table me by turn 2 before my reserves could come in not sure if the tide would do that much better.

So far the biggest problem I have encountered with playing Green Tide is movement. But there never is enough Time, if you are going to field Green Tide you have to play with a time limit and so far this isn't for the green tide player. It's for your Opponent who is basically stupefied by the massive army coming at him, They tend to waste a lot of time just looking at the masses.

I think that where the orks are concerned it's a case of the written fluff being greater than their actual use, they really are not a horde army - there are so many other hordes that just do it better and cheaper. Orks are rally ment to get to the assault phase they basically tear apart everything. The problem has always been getting them there with enough of them to actually do the needed damage. If any army knows they are facing a Green Tide, all they have to do is pick one side or the other and deploy their entire army there. Focus on one unit at a time and force the ork player to spend the entire game moving instead of fighting. Space Wolves do it best but all space marines including chaos have this advantage as well, Nids, Eldar, Tau, Demons, Imperial Guard, and even Ork oppenents will destroy a Green tide or an ork army with massive boyz using this simple tactic. If the Green Tide brings a KFF, they can focus on shooting the Big Meks unit first (since they all have the same cover), once that unit is gone it's back to just regular shooting. The other thing that the Big Mek hinders is shooting the Lootas. The moment your opponent realizes that LOS on lootas provides the same coverage and every other unit, they will be taken apart first.

The only thing a green tide has in its favor is they can only take out so much in a turn. Most army list are built to destroy vehicles, which for the most part is your toys. I have found that the more diverse your list is, the less effective it will be. For instance a single Dakkajet wont strike fear in your opponent, since most unit can snapfire it out of the sky. 3 Dakkajets, with a weirdboy rerolling everytime for a 6 - can be devastating.

A green tide list with 164 models will turn the battlefield green (purple in my case). it may not win but your opponent will have to claw out their victory and if you play with time limits, the orks might win partly on the fact that your opponent couldn't get their reserves on the field. Twice, I got slay the warlord this way. Playing is an exercise in patience (which mine are always pushed to their limit). It's will not be an exciting nor thrilling game. Green tide is all about attrition and once it starts removing enemy units, it becomes more difficult for your opponent to take out your units. For my group 1500 pts should never go over 2 hours - we have done it and afterwards for the winner the victory is never sweet. I don't know what the limit for tournament are now, but a few years back, they were hard lined at a hour. I know of some ork players that never even made it to turn 2 in that time. The last time I used green tide we were able to get to turn 3, fairly consistently, but never saw turn 4.

It's why nob bikes rule, The Painboy gets to shoot and protect the unit with Cybork and FNP and the Waaagh Banner! is just icing. I've made many list and played all sorts of Different and wacky orks - but I have to say if 705 points (Taking up an HQ and a Troop slot) aren't being spent on this unit - there is no way an Ork army can compete. Can Orks still lose? Yes! but it's almost always a closer game.

Dakkamite, I agree with you, more than you know. I'm very jealious that your group allows Forgeworld as an ally supplement. How that would help my Orks, I can't begin to tell you. With the IA 8 Dread Mob list, I can't see anyone taking Green Tide, a Warboss biker, Zhadsnark and Gutsmeks (Or 2 Warboss Bikers and Zhadsnark) would be amazing to have. Speed Freaks are my perfered list currently, IA 8 would only be an improvement.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Ran a green tide today. It was boring, cumbersome and tiring to play, and essentially an auto-win against armies that don't take the maximum number of templates permitted.

Never again.

But wait - I thought it was literally impossible for orks to win unless their opponent is a fool!
Surely I haven't been misled!

sirlynchmob wrote:
What is the world coming to, I have to agree with rigeld here.

Orks are not bottom tier, most codexes still struggle against the tide. Few armies can put out the firepower to really threaten that many boys.

It's also not an auto lose to tau, it really depends on the mission being played. Most tau lists I've seen skimp on the troops choices so just kill their troop choices. Even if they can kill 1 mob of 30 boys a turn, after 5 turn the orks should still have a full mob left.

It seems most people shy away from the tide for other reasons (time, pain, tedious) than because they're "bottom tier."

The logistics were a pain, but moving 180 models per turn was considerably less gak than I thought it would be (still terrible though). The real issues were the RPS element - auto win against armies that haven't gone the path of spammed templates and auto-loss against the few that have, and the fact that though this army was as powerful and irresistable as the tide, it was also as interactive. I felt completely surplus to the requirements of the game, as my 180 models could win the game on autopilot instructions of "move towards closest enemy or objective, shoot, assault where possible" and still do perfectly fine.

It honestly felt like playing a thousand dollar, four hour version of rock paper scissors.

sirlynchmob wrote:
What is the world coming to, I have to agree with rigeld here.

Orks are not bottom tier, most codexes still struggle against the tide. Few armies can put out the firepower to really threaten that many boys.

It's also not an auto lose to tau, it really depends on the mission being played. Most tau lists I've seen skimp on the troops choices so just kill their troop choices. Even if they can kill 1 mob of 30 boys a turn, after 5 turn the orks should still have a full mob left.

It seems most people shy away from the tide for other reasons (time, pain, tedious) than because they're "bottom tier."

It's not an auto loose to Tau? Lol did I mention that at 1850 I can also have 3 riptides? Three large blast per turn with secondary weapon firing? Did I also mention that if I declare Furious Charge with the Puretide EN I will beat the orks in CC? Cause that makes it to were if I position myself right I can kill two boyz squads in a turn with 1 unit... That doesnt count in the Riptide large blasts or my troops (even if I only have 2) shooting. I don't have to worry about objectives if your army is dead.

Green tide doesn't work too well against necrons either, at least for me.

I've rarely got past the midfield line with Orks running an infantry list.

There is a big difference between never winning and being the bottom army. I'm saying that with the current Ork list you will lose more than you will win.

If you opponent sees they are playing against green tide. with the exception of their Drop Pods leaving the reserve pods empty. Or taking their units out of their Mysetic Spores and not leaving them on reserve.

Even a heavy tankbusting army should claim victory against green tide. Like Dakkamite said the Orks are playing a game of Roshambo and they are always saying Paper. All you opponent has to learn is to not be a rock, instead be sissors.
Let the force bottleneck and stumble through terrain, while one by one each ork unit is eliminated.
So far Doom is not very effective against large units but it does what is is suppose to do and that's dely. Mowdoc is destruction to a green tide. Hive Guard don't care if you are in terrain or have a KFF. Fist of the World Wolf shoots a 24" path right though several units. Flame Thowers are devisating, while Meltagun not so. But shooting bolters can wreak the orks. Heldrake just creams a tide unit. Landraider with Khorne inside basically does what ever it wants, tank shocking units and removing all that can't get out of its way.

I don't want to talk about Tau and Eldar. Orks had trouble fitting into 5th edition. Now their very outdated codex really doesn't mesh well in the new rules. If we could access 'ere we go, 2nd edition. I would be singing a totally different tune. The 4th edition codex stripped all of wacky orky things out. For those that can make it work, I'm happy for you, it still wont change the fact that the other armies need to hold back.

Did I also mention that if I declare Furious Charge with the Puretide EN I will beat the orks in CC?

Um, did you also forget to mention that the Puretide chip only affects the model using it? Tank/Monster Hunter and Stubborn are rules that only require 1 model to have it, Furious Charge and the other rules are by a model by model basis.

Even with it i fail to see how you would beat orks

 Sleg wrote:
There is a big difference between never winning and being the bottom army. I'm saying that with the current Ork list you will lose more than you will win.

That's not what you started the thread saying, so that's progress.

If you opponent sees they are playing against green tide. with the exception of their Drop Pods leaving the reserve pods empty. Or taking their units out of their Mysetic Spores and not leaving them on reserve.

You cannot drop an empty spore. Tyranids don't have the same options Marines do.

it still wont change the fact that the other armies need to hold back.

Sigh... That's simply not true.

This discussion has proven to me two things.

1# the KFF is awesome

2# even orks can troll