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I find it interesting, I have bought very little GW over the last few years, not because i'm against them, but more that I found I was interested in other games and systems which I felt were a little bit more adult.

As such I'd been exploring things like infinity and malifaux and a real huge jump into FoW over the last 2.5 years or so.

I sold off 2 of my three armies due to lack of use, but with the new Eldar codex I was quite up for updating my army, I already had enough wraithguard thanks to ebay, so I was only looking at the new flyer and the wraithknight - however the cost (retail) for those 2 and the codex was £140! For £120 I could get a FoW army.

The opportunity cost is amazing, and so bar the new flyer I'm just not digging new GW anymore

 Yodhrin wrote:

In that case, your personal experience is not reflective of the wider situation -

It very well might be. I do note that you seem to not question if your experience is reflective of the wider situation.

down here at the end of the pay scale where managing every pound you spend is important, quite a few people can and have been priced out of the hobby despite still finding it immensely rewarding and not actually wanting to stop.

Really? So they were happily building, painting, and playing with their armies until a price point hit, and then simply could not play anymore? Without new models and units they could not play at all? I'm genuinely curious about the mechanics for that. In my experience, people that have limited means are more aware of sunk costs, and tend to use what they have as much as possible.

You're proceeding from a false assumption; I am not a Capitalist, I do not hold to Capitalist economic principles, and I do not accept blindly the doctrines that come with Capitalism(and before anyone starts, "not Capitalist" != "Communist").

I don't particualrly care what you believe. Your belief about market forces no more creates an objective reality than anything else.

Goods do, in my opinion, have an objective value, which I have described - they are worth what they cost to create, regardless of what additional cost people choose to add by bringing subjective emotional judgements into things. In a Capitalist context, there's no choice but to accept that the subjective value and the objective value will be unequal, since that context includes profit, but the objective value does still exist, and it is irrational to pay hundreds, perhaps thousands of times what an item costs to create - a certain amount of leeway exists for personal subjective value, but it isn't infinite. If an item costs X, and most retailers sell the item at X+Y(Y being a modest percentage profit), a person who willingly pays X*1000 is not being rational, regardless of whether or not they personally feel they get X*1000 "worth" of enjoyment from the item.

Well, enjoy feeling irrational.

First, I think you overstate the ability to ascertain an objective cost (how much does it cost to create something involving mental skill, such as writing code or painting a portrait?) Until you assign an objective cost to labor (which starts veering into communist territory) all of your "objective values" are going to rest on the market price for wages. Secondly, where, exactly, do you think the costs of materials come from? Oil doesn't cost more now because it's more expensive to produce, it's simply more in demand.

Second, your examples only go one way: where subjective value is higher than objective value. You only need to look at a used 40k army to see that subjecitve value can be much, much lower.

Market forces aren't blind doctrine, they are an observable phenomon.

 Polonius wrote:



First, I think you overstate the ability to ascertain an objective cost (how much does it cost to create something involving mental skill, such as writing code or painting a portrait?) Until you assign an objective cost to labor (which starts veering into communist territory) all of your "objective values" are going to rest on the market price for wages. Secondly, where, exactly, do you think the costs of materials come from? Oil doesn't cost more now because it's more expensive to produce, it's simply more in demand.

Second, your examples only go one way: where subjective value is higher than objective value. You only need to look at a used 40k army to see that subjecitve value can be much, much lower.

Market forces aren't blind doctrine, they are an observable phenomon.

The cost of the mental skill in this case is easy, it is what they agreed to do the job for, period. That's not communist, that is Capitalism at is most basic. Good try there.

Noir wrote:

The cost of the mental skill in this case is easy, it is what they agreed to do the job for, period. That's not communist, that is Capitalism at is most basic. Good try there.

Are you aware that my argument is that value is based on market forces?

 Bat Manuel wrote:
These threads are like AA meetings.


One day at a time people. One day at a time

Exalted with WIN

cincydooley wrote:
It's not a red herring because you're comparing them to, as I said before, other common adult hobbies.

If you want to compare them specifically to other wargaming companies, then limit it to that. But that valuation is still purely subjective.

I, for one, buy more GW than other companies because of a few reasons:

1. I like the background and story. They have their hooks in me there.

2. I like their multipart plastic kits more than anyone elses.

3. I can always find a game.

For me, these three things, and in particular #3, mean a lot when adding my perceived value. I could legitimately walk into ANY of our 4 local stores with a 40k or Fantasy army and get a game more or less on sight.

What you are doing here is legit. A real comparison based on real factors. What the poster I originally responded to was doing was dismissing the entire value/price issue with a hand wave. The red herring is the idea that because some other hobby costs more, any evaluation based on price is not valid. The red herring was the attempt to dismiss price/value without consideration and certainly not the honest assessment of factors that you are talking about.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Oh look, another one of these threads. Hobbies cost money, people. Deal with it. GW isn't even all that expensive, but if you find it to be, just do something else. Stop broadcasting it to the world.

*Goes back to buying GW one-click bundles*

This thread is like watching someone spending three hours insisting the glass really is half empty.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Oh look, another one of these threads. Hobbies cost money, people. Deal with it. GW isn't even all that expensive, but if you find it to be, just do something else. Stop broadcasting it to the world.

*Goes back to buying GW one-click bundles*

This thread is like watching someone spending three hours insisting the glass really is half empty.

It is half empty, but this glass is one of two glasses you're interested in, and they're all comparable with each other, but the other glasses over there are just as half empty, but cost more than the glass you're interested.

Edit: I've no fething idea wtf I'm talking about with this post

MarsNZ wrote:
It makes me every bit as right as you seeing as you waited till I posted what I play then backpedaled and rubbished everything I play, a very childish method of making a point now that I think back to my school days. I don't like intricate tables and weekend-long skirmishes looking up intricate millimetre values for dozens of hit locations on a specific make of Panzer IV in a WW2 game. I guess that makes me a kid.

Good day.

Yeah, if you tried a few different games, you'd find that impression of other game systems doesn't actually fit more than a couple of fairly old games - most adult-intended wargames are characterised by having less rules than GW core games (or FoW for that matter) that play in a more streamlined manner, but result in more complex actual gameplay.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Magic only becomes as expensive as Warhammer if you want to play very competively. Only then.

Plenty of other adult hobbies are just as expensive, if not more expensive than Warhammer, including some of the aformentioned.

But Alf is right, Magic really isn't one of them.

I agree 100% here. A good example for me is drumming. A top of the line drumming setup runs as much as my 10 year budget for Warhammer. And upgrades there are never cheap. Now granted drums hold their value longer, and are an entire other beast to deal with. But it is a good example of other hobbies that cost just as much as playing GW games.

The biggest difference there is that the perceived value of $5,000 worth of drums is far greater to me than that of the same amount in models.

But when we look at comparable costs like this, it astounds me that GW still thinks this is a kids game.

Touche. I could easily go drop $5k and up on a nice skeet/trap shotgun today. And that's a ton more than I'll spend on GW in any given year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

2x210 wrote:

If you want cheap, buy some legos, download the Brickwars rules and have at it

A- Completly agree with your post.

B- Brickwars rules? That sounds interesting!

Brickwars is awesome, Its kinda like an RTS but you actually get to build the stuff with your hands haha

That's an interesting thought experiment, at 2008 (so 5 years ago) influenced by DOW 2 and Cavatores new edition of 40k (the then new and quite good 5th), I cave in and decided to make a marine army, but a marine army under my terms, all new and all metal, more or less this.



But with their move to finecast all potential bridges got burned, with the latest codexes and the 6th the chasm got wider, the only other thing I bought that was produced by GW was one of each new wash at 2013.

 Polonius wrote:
It's been my experience that while price might be the reason a person stops buying 40k, it's rarely, if ever, the reason they leave the hobby.

If a person is playing league games weekly, tournaments montly, and is building a new army all the time, price becomes an obstacle, not a barrier. it's only when you stop playing that price becomes prohibitive.

But, it's not as much fun to announce, "I've decided I just don't play the game, so I'm quititng."

Speaking for myself, cost was the primary reason I didn't get back into Fantasy (with 40K, it was more the neglect of my chosen army). I started adding up the prices for an "evening's game" sized Warhammer Fantasy army, and quickly realised I didn't really want to do that.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I cave in and decided to make a marine army, but a marine army under my terms, all new and all metal, more or less this.



But with their move to finecast all potential bridges got burned, with the latest codexes and the 6th the chasm got wider, the only other thing I bought that was produced by GW was one of each new wash at 2013.

That all metal marine army is fantastic. Finecast must have been a big kick in the groin for you.

 Elemental wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's been my experience that while price might be the reason a person stops buying 40k, it's rarely, if ever, the reason they leave the hobby.

If a person is playing league games weekly, tournaments montly, and is building a new army all the time, price becomes an obstacle, not a barrier. it's only when you stop playing that price becomes prohibitive.

But, it's not as much fun to announce, "I've decided I just don't play the game, so I'm quititng."

Speaking for myself, cost was the primary reason I didn't get back into Fantasy (with 40K, it was more the neglect of my chosen army). I started adding up the prices for an "evening's game" sized Warhammer Fantasy army, and quickly realised I didn't really want to do that.

But that just supports my theory. You didn't quit WFB, you just didn't get back into it.

If the discussion is how many people want to get into GW but don't due to price... I imagine it's hefty.

GW, like any other company, is there to take your money. The increases in price have become ridiculous, but they know we will pay, and they are a company out to earn money so who can blame them. I remember the last time in my FLGS a mate was buying a few bits for his Space Wolves force (literally something like a character blister, squad of marines, some paints and glue). He was literally shocked to see that the total price at the till amassed to somewhere around the £120 mark for a small army booster and the required tools to assemble the models. He honestly thought the staff was being ironic when he said "Do you want a bag, it's 10p extra". Turns out he wasn't, GW will even take our money for their plastic bags. And as I said, why not? My mate still bought the stuff and GW became a little wealthier. My only other hobbies are computing and music, but I feel happier spending money on GW products because I want them to last a lifetime. If I buy a ton of new hardware and build a new PC it will set me back £1000 and last me a few years, then the hardware will be outdated and I'll have to upgrade. If I buy a new guitar it would be another £1000 and I would have to replace strings every few months, before replacing the instrument after a decade when it gives in. However if I spend £1000 on models it would be over a long period and not a single investment. Assembling and painting the models will last a good few fun hours, but gaming with them with friends; that will last many years.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sure GW is stupidly overpriced like many hobbies, but we all have the choice to quit at anytime. But we probably wont, because we love it. And there's certainly nothing wrong with it.

 Reaver83 wrote:
I find it interesting, I have bought very little GW over the last few years, not because i'm against them, but more that I found I was interested in other games and systems which I felt were a little bit more adult.
As such I'd been exploring things like infinity and malifaux and a real huge jump into FoW over the last 2.5 years or so.
I sold off 2 of my three armies due to lack of use, but with the new Eldar codex I was quite up for updating my army, I already had enough wraithguard thanks to ebay, so I was only looking at the new flyer and the wraithknight - however the cost (retail) for those 2 and the codex was £140! For £120 I could get a FoW army.
The opportunity cost is amazing, and so bar the new flyer I'm just not digging new GW anymore

Pretty much sums up how GW may go: quietly as interests have gone elsewhere.
This is the most competitive time for people's disposable income and interests.
Selling some of the on the side armies would also slow their sales.
Anyway, as stated: "another one of those threads", more playing less griping as pointed out.

In the last few years i have sold
7 Lord of the rings armies
4.5k pts of Nids
3.5k pts of Orks
... I have bought a few hundred dollars worth of new minis if you count the last two 40k starter sets as well as the new codex for chaos and chaos demons. I am Selling my spacemarines off when i get back from my trip.

I agree that GW is pricing me out of the hobby. Instead i just spent 100$ on games i will play that cost 40$ total. Like Last Night on Earth, 7 Wonders etc. I love mini,s gaming but right now i feel like I cant really afford things.

Plus... A freind and along time GW collector recently informed me that sources have told him that the Company is being groomed for sale. Not sure how much stock i put in this, but i would rather be on the safe side.

 sennacherib wrote:
I love mini,s gaming but right now i feel like I cant really afford things.

If you love miniature gaming there are far cheaper, far better options for you.

fishy bob wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
I love mini,s gaming but right now i feel like I cant really afford things.

If you love miniature gaming there are far cheaper, far better options for you.

And of course "better options" is completely subjective.

To me, the prices are one factor which keeps pushing me from the hobby. The first thing I ever bought was a box of five 3ed chaos marines for $16.00 Canadian and the current box (new models) is $30.00 for five chaos marines. That's almost a 100% inflation over the decade I've been playing this hobby. When I started up I understood the cost, but all of my income was disposable because I was young and living with my parents and my only alternative was video games. I find it difficult to justify such an expense at this juncture because not all of my income is disposable and I'm honestly not convinced that the models are worth what I'm paying for them.

The game can really be played for free. When I started playing with my friend, he and I cut out a hundred circles of paper and wrote on them what they were then cut rectangles for tanks. This helped us experiment with what we liked and figure out what we wanted to buy but it was also incredibly fun. We may or may not have downloaded the army books and played for what may or may not have been free.

To me, I'm just not sure that you can justify spending any money on the hobby unless you have a reliable group to play with and are keenly interesting in owning, assembling and painting the models. This can probably be said of a lot of similar wargames, but what keeps me playing warhammer is a combination of the story and the group I play with.

I also played Fantasy for a long time and since my friends didn't play I often had to do it at the store. I liked what I consider to be a more sophisticated ruleset which rewarded strong generals over strong army books. I stopped playing Fantasy at exactly the moment that Matt Ward's Daemon book hit the shelf and the 8th edition rulebook frustrated me enough to shelf my army unless my friends wanted to pick it up. I am worried that 40k is trending in this direction. Even though codex creep has always existed, the rules are becoming less fun (flyers are bizarre and hull points involve tedious notetaking) and players are penalized for not playing FotM armies. The fluff gets frequently retconned and makes it hard to keep your own army's backstory consistent. I love the Black Library books and that's probably what keeps me playing more than anything.

I think I could get behind a community project which took the game from Games Workshop. I feel like they're losing touch with what makes the game fun. In response to a comment about the 7th edition Daemons being overpowered, Matt Ward famously said, "It would be a shame if it wasn't." I don't have a quote or source, but Games Workshop has also said that they're not interested in balancing the game at the tournament level and that they're selling plastic dolls to kids. They're really lost touch with the playerbase. Apparently other games (Magic?) run tournaments and keep an eye on tournament rules whereas I only ever see a GW booth set up at warhammer tournaments and they don't seem to care at all what sort of rules or scenarios are being used. If tournaments didn't require players to bring army books, painted models or even models at all, I'm not even sure if GW would make too much of a fuss.

Yes I like the GW models, no I don't like the cost. I like the hobby and I like playing wargames and my closest friends are devoted to 40k so I'm stuck. So for now I'm just converting and painting what I've got and lurking ebay until a good set of models comes up. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how much I'm willing to spend on the hobby (especially brand new), but if I spend anything then I'll be spending it at my non-GW FLGS as a silent protest to the direction GW has been heading over the past 5 years (at least).

The other thing I wonder about is related to 3D printers. I wonder if GW realizes that the majority of their income is at risk when those things finally become cost-effective and at higher resolution. I suspect that they're just trying to squeeze water from a stone until 3D printers come out in force and the models are rendered nearly obsolete. They have a lot of security with the Black Library, but I wonder if the hobby will die. I hope the community picks up the game and makes new rulebooks for tournaments and the like because the hobby has always been fun.

It is always interesting to read people ranting at the other camp.
For me it is simple, i started at 89, when GW was still affordable before the prices spun out of control.
IMO GW takes the same 5$ sweatshop T-shirt made in GWstan stick a GW label on it and says it is costs 50$.
I still like the 40K universe, but i have been buying mostily stuff other systems (dust tactic, Bolt action, 1-48combat)
GW just price/value wise isn't for me anymore.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
It is always interesting to read people ranting at the other camp.
For me it is simple, i started at 89, when GW was still affordable before the prices spun out of control.
IMO GW takes the same 5$ sweatshop T-shirt made in GWstan stick a GW label on it and says it is costs 50$.
I still like the 40K universe, but i have been buying mostily stuff other systems (dust tactic, Bolt action, 1-48combat)
GW just price/value wise isn't for me anymore.

Cool. Enjoy your other games. I like bolt action a lot so far.

Personally, I don't think I've bought anything directlly from GW in years,

Its always Ebay, or Bartertown,

But my collection has gotten so damn large that I think the only companies making money off of me are the conversion bits stores.

I haven't bought anything direct from GW for yonks, I've always gone through a supplier.

That said, I buy models based on either the 'cool' factor, or the 'eewww' factor. GW has had plenty of misses (for me) for a lot of their recent releases, but I'll still buy the occasional thing from them.

Which means I'll probably stump up for the Khornate Lawmower at some point.

Yeah for a while now I haven't bought anything from GW directly for at least 2-3 years especially after the increasingly crazy price hikes on the older kits for no real reason. With prices like Land Raiders being 89 dollars retail (!!!) most of my friends are getting "new" models through me as the mediator (they don't know/trust many of the online retailers so I get it for them) rather than buying it at Gdubs. I seriously don't know how much longer they're going to push this because sales are clearly going down despite the cuts to staff and other measures of staying lean. Until Tom Kirby and the rest of the Old Guard leave and we get some of the original talent back I don't think we'll be seeing improvement any time soon.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
IMO GW takes the same 5$ sweatshop T-shirt made in GWstan stick a GW label on it and says it is costs 50$.

So do a lot of places - my mum used to work for surf companies working on their clothing lines. Bulk plain colour tagless shirt orders from bigger places like Bonds for ~$2au each wholesale, attach or print companies tag, print design, $50au-$60au shirt. The Quicksilver shirt I'm wearing right now cost me $60au, and would have cost about $5au to make and distribute, including labour.

If you wanted to have a dig at GW, their novelty clothes wasn't the way to go. GW do the same thing most other clothing companies do.

 -Loki- wrote:
The Quicksilver shirt I'm wearing right now

Australians don't wear surfing clothes, do they?

fishy bob wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
The Quicksilver shirt I'm wearing right now

Australians don't wear surfing clothes, do they?

They wear them to warn the multitude of deadly critters down there that they're crazy enough to swim with sharks.

fishy bob wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
The Quicksilver shirt I'm wearing right now

Australians don't wear surfing clothes, do they?

Only the ones that wear surfing clothes wear them.