Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is not a lie, you did not have a chance to play as you did not participate in any of the three main aspects of playing the game, those being movement, shooting, or assault...

Not rolling any dice to see if your units live or die does not = playing the game.

Playing the game requires both sides participating in the main aspects of the game, which involve rolling the dice to determine if your units live or die, and an option that denies one side that opportunity is bad game design.

But you are rolling dice. On a 3+, the unit tries to enter from reserve and fails. On a 1 or 2, it stays safe in reserve awaiting it's friends on the table to create an opening. If you don't have friends on the table and you're rolling for reserves, you've already lost the game.

It doesn't need a rules fix and much as it needs rules awareness.
After the Kroot Stomping the White Scars, I'm going to be that White Scars never put themselves in a position for that to happen to them again.

-Matt

You can't stop the unit from arriving from reserves.

pg 124:

we start with when arriving from reserves "it must move fully onto the table."

then we get if for some reason you can't fit the model onto the board, place it against the edge.

and we finish with if a unit has a special rule forcing it to move, or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored.

so the arriving unit can and would ignore the can't move withing 1" of a enemy the turn it arrives in that case. So if there is room for the model to fit through, it can move through the unit to the other side of the unit if it has the movement to make it there.

Nothing in the reserve rules leads to the old way of doing it and destroying the unit.

As far as I know, if they're off the table edge, destroyed

 Lucarikx wrote:
Seems like you guys are looking for this pic:


Lucarikx

Actually not at all, that picture is and was not really not needed.

That situation was a few editions ago, and the TO arbitrarily awarded a win as the rules at the time did not really cover that situation.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is not a lie, you did not have a chance to play as you did not participate in any of the three main aspects of playing the game, those being movement, shooting, or assault...

Not rolling any dice to see if your units live or die does not = playing the game.

Playing the game requires both sides participating in the main aspects of the game, which involve rolling the dice to determine if your units live or die, and an option that denies one side that opportunity is bad game design.

So you made no decisions as to the outcome of the game?
The game is not all about dice.

Every game has dice involved, Every single one...

The game heavily involves dice.

But that is not the point, the point is that Playing the game requires both sides participating in the main aspects of the game there are arguably three main phases of the game, these are the; Movement, Shooting, and assault phases.

Not able to utilize all of these phases is bad game design. Some armies of course are mode to not participate in one of these phases, but it uses the other two. Such as an assault army will not really shoot anything, but they will move and assault, a Gunline will not really assault anything but they will move and assault.

Not being able to enter the board is not playing a game.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
But you are rolling dice. On a 3+, the unit tries to enter from reserve and fails. On a 1 or 2, it stays safe in reserve awaiting it's friends on the table to create an opening. If you don't have friends on the table and you're rolling for reserves, you've already lost the game.

It doesn't need a rules fix and much as it needs rules awareness.
After the Kroot Stomping the White Scars, I'm going to be that White Scars never put themselves in a position for that to happen to them again.

-Matt

It does need a rules fix, this trick should not even be possible.

What's the difference between this and him nuking the one unit on the table? Game loss in both situations.

Dice were rolled, you made tactical decisions, the game was played.

rigeld2 wrote:
What's the difference between this and him nuking the one unit on the table? Game loss in both situations.

Dice were rolled, you made tactical decisions, the game was played.

The game was not played.

Nuking a player off the table in the first turn does not happen in an even pointed game.

for the game to be played both people would need to have at least one full player turn.

Getting back on topic:

Page 76, Reserves

Paragraph 11

Each model's move is measured from the board edge of the battlefield., as if they had been positioned just off the battlefield in the previous turn and moved as normal. This means it is incorrect to place a model on the board touching the edge then move it

formatted exactly from the rule book.

Paragraph 12

If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from reserve.

So if by some miracle the RW player covered the entire board edge of the the Tau's side, AND have every inch of it covered within half an inch, then models cannot enter. Paragraph 11 establishes that the models start just off hence they can only come on 6". And the RW players bike control a total of what about 2 and 1/2 inches with their 1" control zone(plus the models width). AND using Deathreaper's (I believe it was) counter argument THEY do NOT begin within an inch of them.

Now the precedence is then provided by fall back moves, where models that end thier move off the board (with the exception of fliers (only ones i am aware of) and deep strike mishaps) are counted as destroyed, whether they ran away got killed by units lying in wait etc etc etc etc etc.

Therefor just like the white scars man, all FW and the ethereal are dead.

So the game doesn't start until P1 Movement?

And nuking off the table absolutely can happen in even pointed games. You should understand how it happens since we're discussing Reserves...

The point is that list building and deployment are tactical decisions that have an effect on the game. It is possible to build lists that automatically lose as well as deploy so that you'll automatically lose. The fact that there's no rules to prevent this isn't a bad thing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The game was not played.

Nuking a player off the table in the first turn does not happen in an even pointed game.

providing another counter ofc is DW Assault being used on T2, and they have say 2 whirlwinds on the board, Whirlwinds dead auto win to me. This has actually happened on my first 6th ed tournament, and won me the game 20-0


Automatically Appended Next Post:
T1 victory job done


Automatically Appended Next Post:
15 mins to set up 5 mins to destroy

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
You can't stop the unit from arriving from reserves.

pg 124:

we start with when arriving from reserves "it must move fully onto the table."

then we get if for some reason you can't fit the model onto the board, place it against the edge.

and we finish with if a unit has a special rule forcing it to move, or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored.

so the arriving unit can and would ignore the can't move withing 1" of a enemy the turn it arrives in that case. So if there is room for the model to fit through, it can move through the unit to the other side of the unit if it has the movement to make it there.

Nothing in the reserve rules leads to the old way of doing it and destroying the unit.

Are they allowed to move within 1" of an enemy model?
No.

Guess that's not right than

As that rule is being ignored, we need not consider it at all, so yes they are allowed to move within 1" of an enemy model.

sirlynchmob wrote:
then we get if for some reason you can't fit the model onto the board, place it against the edge.

That's not what it says. Nor would it make any sense for the rules to tell you to put the model somewhere that you have just established there is no room for it to go...


What the section you were looking at actually allows is for you to place the model against the edge of the board if it has insufficient movement to move fully onto the table. This covers units like the Baneblade which physically can not move far enough to get fully onto the board. It's not a blanket abilty to ignore enemy models that are in the way.

and we finish with if a unit has a special rule forcing it to move, or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored.

Neither of which apply here. There is no rule stopping the unit from moving. Just a rule stopping the unit from moving through enemy models.

sirlynchmob wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
You can't stop the unit from arriving from reserves.

pg 124:

we start with when arriving from reserves "it must move fully onto the table."

then we get if for some reason you can't fit the model onto the board, place it against the edge.

and we finish with if a unit has a special rule forcing it to move, or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored.

so the arriving unit can and would ignore the can't move withing 1" of a enemy the turn it arrives in that case. So if there is room for the model to fit through, it can move through the unit to the other side of the unit if it has the movement to make it there.


Nothing in the reserve rules leads to the old way of doing it and destroying the unit.

Are they allowed to move within 1" of an enemy model?
No.

Guess that's not right than

As that rule is being ignored, we need not consider it at all, so yes they are allowed to move within 1" of an enemy model.

The rules clearly state you can not move with in an inch of an enemy model the entire board edge your trying to come on from is clgged up by control zones you cannot come on from there, you have to move on the board or count through other precedences as removed from play.

rigeld2 wrote:
So the game doesn't start until P1 Movement?

I never said that and when the game starts has no bearing.

One person deploying and claiming victory is not playing a game of 40K

And nuking off the table absolutely can happen in even pointed games. You should understand how it happens since we're discussing Reserves...

The point is that list building and deployment are tactical decisions that have an effect on the game. It is possible to build lists that automatically lose as well as deploy so that you'll automatically lose. The fact that there's no rules to prevent this isn't a bad thing.

Sure it is 'possible to build lists that automatically lose' an unfortunate design flaw in the game.

Except the OP isn't a case of one person deploying and claiming victory - they actually do play at least part of turn 1.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the OP isn't a case of one person deploying and claiming victory - they actually do play at least part of The starting Player's turn 1.

FTFY

a unit cannot infiltrate within 6" of your opponent's board edge

The guy who mentioned this simple fix when I was complaining shall remain anonymous because I'm not sure he wants to be involved in this shoot out but it's a wise suggestion, if both players agree. As far as the whole 1 side deploys one claims victory isn't possible because 6th doesnt allow you to hold your whole army in reserve. There we are problem solved for those who wished it and for those that don't care carry on

Uh, 6th Ed does allow you to hold your entire army in reserve, in certain situations, because units that must start in reserve, and units in transports that must start in reserve, don't count towards the total number of units in reserve.


Although, to be fair, an all drop pod marine army is not going to care about the army of kroot camped on their board edge...

 insaniak wrote:
Uh, 6th Ed does allow you to hold your entire army in reserve, in certain situations, because units that must start in reserve, and units in transports that must start in reserve, don't count towards the total number of units in reserve.


Although, to be fair, an all drop pod marine army is not going to care about the army of kroot camped on their board edge...

Same for any flyer transports.