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 Troike wrote:


Not stupid, primitive. They were from a world where that technology was not known of. If anything, this only casts Vandire in a bad light for exploiting their ignorance. Of course a bunch or deeply religious people from a primitive world would see a forcefield as a miracle.

... he came down from a space ship. A flying metal contraption that can leave atmosphere and travel through space is possible, but a lasbolt (read: a laser) not killing someone can only be an act of God? Really?

What Imperial faction hasn't slaughtered "innocent" civilians without caring? That's standard stuff in this setting, really.

And it's never a good thing. This doesn't absolve them of anything. lol

That's just what Blood of Martyrs says, and I recall Lynata saying that it has some issues in adhering to GW fluff. GW fluff has them putting up a strong defence, losing many soldiers but nonetheless denying a supposedly much superior force.

Lynata is the first person to tell you (when it suits his agenda to do so) that all 40K sources are inconstant and which one you choose is up to personal interpretation. If you have sources saying the Sisters were handing the Space Marines/Mechanicum their collective asses, feel free to provide it.

Uh, nobody "slapped" any sense into her. What happened is that the Custodes came to them, dropped their weapons and made an "impassioned plea" to the Sisters to give up on Vandire. When they refused, the lead Custode actually left his men as hostages and escorted Dominica and her five Sisters to the Emperor's throne room. It doesn't actually say what happened in there, so we can't really comment on it properly. Certainly it says nothing about the Emperor "slapping" sense into her.

You either don't know what figurative language means, or you're pulling a Melissia. Either way, stahp it.

What? Space Marines didn't save them. They held off four chapters of Space Marines, got the Custodes themselves to try to talk them down and were the ones to kill Vandire. I'm not seeing how anybody "saved" them.

They didn't "get" the Custodes to talk to them, and trying to give the SIsters credit for killing Vandire is laughable. The Astartes and Mechanicum were closing in on the Imperial palace, and the Sisters were ready to die to a woman blindly defending their insane leader. The Custodes leader coems to Dominicia and is like "Dominica, Vandire is insane, please stop defending him." And she's like "No." He's like "please?" and she's like "No." So he sighs and takes her to the Emperor, after which point she says "amg Custodes leader, you were 100% right and I should have listened to you. Gonna kill Vandire now with my 4000 troops k." And thus ended the Age of Apostasy. Trying to make it seem like the Sisters came out the heroes in that scenario is... odd.

That origin story isn't necessarily heroic or stupid. It just is. You have an organization that will fanatically follow who they think is right without question. They just needed to be turned in the right direction and when that happened, you get a zealous fighting force on your side. And the countless miracles that happen only reaffirm their fanatic faith. The technological difference between a society with las guns and force fields is huge. (Heck, we're close to las guns now.) Sure, they had las guns and maybe a ship or two, but force fields are a couple steps above that on the tech level chart. So, they get a pass there.

But in general. The list of pro and con fluff seems to be in the 'pro' category so far.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... he came down from a space ship. A flying metal contraption that can leave atmosphere and travel through space is possible, but a lasbolt (read: a laser) not killing someone can only be an act of God? Really?

The fluff does have Vandire boasting that the Sisters did not know of forcefield techology specifically. They didn't know about it, ergo they interpreted it as a miracle.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And it's never a good thing. This doesn't absolve them of anything. lol

Never said it was a good thing, just that it's not unusual in this setting. You can't exactly level it as a criticism when pretty much every Imperial faction, and most non-Imperial factions go around doing this sort of thing too. All factions have innocent blood on their hands, you might as well go around criticising them all for it.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Lynata is the first person to tell you (when it suits his agenda to do so) that all 40K sources are inconstant and which one you choose is up to personal interpretation. If you have sources saying the Sisters were handing the Space Marines/Mechanicum their collective asses, feel free to provide it.

The newst SoB codex specifically says that the Sisters held out for months, and "withstood every assault", and that it only ended when the Custodes got involved. This does not at all paint a picture of a defense which is "failing".

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You either don't know what figurative language means, or you're pulling a Melissia. Either way, stahp it.

I'm aware that you weren't being literal, but the way you phrased it made it sound like Dominica was aggressively forced to see the folly of serving Vandire. I just went through what actually happened to demonstrate that this was explicitly not the case.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They didn't "get" the Custodes to talk to them,

They forced the hands of an organisation famed for its seclusion and lack of involvement in the Imperium's business. The "got" the Custodes to come and talk to them in that the Custodes viewed them as dangerous enough to warrent talking to rather than just waiting for the Marines and Mechanicus to wipe them out.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
and trying to give the SIsters credit for killing Vandire is laughable.

Not really, a Sister was the one who killed him. I'm not seeing why they shouldn't get the credit for it, Dominica made the decision to renounce her loyalty to Vandire and end his life.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Astartes and Mechanicum were closing in on the Imperial palace, and the Sisters were ready to die to a woman blindly defending their insane leader.

Honestly, I'm just hearing praise here. Implacable soldiers, willing to fight to the last in the name of their god! (their god being Big E, not Vandire)

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Custodes leader coems to Dominicia and is like "Dominica, Vandire is insane, please stop defending him." And she's like "No." He's like "please?" and she's like "No." So he sighs and takes her to the Emperor, after which point she says "amg Custodes leader, you were 100% right and I should have listened to you. Gonna kill Vandire now with my 4000 troops k." And thus ended the Age of Apostasy.

You're twisting those events just a bit. The Custode never "sighed", he was very respectful towards the Sisters, going so far as to leave them his men as hostages and taking them directly to the Emperor. Dominca never said anything like that to the Custodes leader, once she was convinced to renounce Vandire she went straight to her Sisters to break the news, before killing Vandire.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Trying to make it seem like the Sisters came out the heroes in that scenario is... odd.

Not at all. They successfully defended their fortress against an supposedly superior force, and finally slew one of the Imperiun's greatest tyrants after seeing through his lies and regaining their identity. They then went on to be the Ecclesiarchy's army, having learned from the experience and taking care to police the Ecclesiarchy and be wary of those who claim to be prophets.

Edit: one other thing I wanted to mention. Them turning on Vandire, and in other fluff other holy leaders who decieve them, is actually a very nice part of their fluff, IMO. Yes they are fanatically devoted to their relgion, quite single-mindedly, but that's a double-edged sword for any would-be manipulators. Yes, if you're an important but corrupt holy man you can likely manipulate them into carrying out your own nefarious agenda, but the moment they suspect that such a holy man is manipulating them for devious purposes, they turn on the manipulator with righteous fury.

AV 12 flyer with hover mode
dual TL multimelta's
melta ish bomb that drops with a flame template, like napalm... smells like, victory

Spartak wrote:
AV 12 flyer with hover mode
dual TL multimelta's
melta ish bomb that drops with a flame template, like napalm... smells like, victory

Since GW probably isn't willing to port the Avenger over from FW, the Lightning Fighter from Soulstorm could maybe be this. Though obviously retooled a bit so it' fits your description a bit better. Whatever it is, a flyer with meltas and melta bombs would be just glorious.

 Troike wrote:
The fluff does have Vandire boasting that the Sisters did not know of forcefield techology specifically. They didn't know about it, ergo they interpreted it as a miracle.

Okay, so you agree with me, that they were collectively stupid enough to fall for his ploy.

Never said it was a good thing, just that it's not unusual in this setting. You can't exactly level it as a criticism when pretty much every Imperial faction, and most non-Imperial factions go around doing this sort of thing too. All factions have innocent blood on their hands, you might as well go around criticising them all for it.

The majority of them don't do so at the behest of the villain who tricked them into giving him their loyalty. Those that do, get called out for it as well.

The newst SoB codex specifically says that the Sisters held out for months, and "withstood every assault", and that it only ended when the Custodes got involved. This does not at all paint a picture of a defense which is "failing".

Providing the length of the conflict doesn't contradict anything I said, nor the FFG's descriptions of events, which is that by the time the custodians intervened the Astartes and the Mechanicum were closing in for the kill and Vandire's troops were being wiped out.

I'm aware that you weren't being literal, but the way you phrased it made it sound like Dominica was aggressively forced to see the folly of serving Vandire. I just went through what actually happened to demonstrate that this was explicitly not the case.

If the Custodes and the Emperor hadn't made their appeals to her, she would have died defending Vandire, because she and the rest of her kin lack the independent thinking to realize Vandire was a fool themselves. So yeah, that is explicitly what happened.

They forced the hands of an organisation famed for its seclusion and lack of involvement in the Imperium's business. The "got" the Custodes to come and talk to them in that the Custodes viewed them as dangerous enough to warrent talking to rather than just waiting for the Marines and Mechanicus to wipe them out.

Lol, I'd like you to prove that the Custodes only intervened because of how "dangerous" the Sisters were.

Not really, a Sister was the one who killed him. I'm not seeing why they shouldn't get the credit for it, Dominica made the decision to renounce her loyalty to Vandire and end his life.

Because they wouldn't have killed him at all if the Custodes, at the advice of the Astartes no less, hadn't intervened.

Honestly, I'm just hearing praise here. Implacable soldiers, willing to fight to the last in the name of their god! (their god being Big E, not Vandire)

I like Al Queida too, I guess.

You're twisting those events just a bit. The Custode never "sighed", he was very respectful towards the Sisters, going so far as to leave them his men as hostages and taking them directly to the Emperor. Dominca never said anything like that to the Custodes leader, once she was convinced to renounce Vandire she went straight to her Sisters to break the news, before killing Vandire.

lol

Not at all. They successfully defended their fortress against an supposedly superior force, and finally slew one of the Imperiun's greatest tyrants after seeing through his lies and regaining their identity. They then went on to be the Ecclesiarchy's army, having learned from the experience and taking care to police the Ecclesiarchy and be wary of those who claim to be prophets.

Sure, so long as you completely ignore every single factor that led to them surviving the scenario and slaying the tyrant..

Edit: one other thing I wanted to mention. Them turning on Vandire, and in other fluff other holy leaders who decieve them, is actually a very nice part of their fluff, IMO. Yes they are fanatically devoted to their relgion, quite single-mindedly, but that's a double-edged sword for any would-be manipulators. Yes, if you're an important but corrupt holy man you can likely manipulate them into carrying out your own nefarious agenda, but the moment they suspect that such a holy man is manipulating them for devious purposes, they turn on the manipulator with righteous fury.

HQ: Blind Saint - Model wise would have a cloth across the eyes, and probably some saint purity feeling, wings always nice . Faith wise could give sight to 'brighten' night fighting for your squad as a wargear ability and could then roll to give guidance gaining an extra 6" range to the squad she joined., If the faith could be cast against an enemy could blind an opponent causing night fighting for their next turn to X squad.

Troops: "Terminator" like squad for sisters, their terminator feeling would be toughness 4, but they'd be enveloped in a spirit/faith. Spirit squadron. They would retain the 3+ save but gain +1 to their invulnerable due to their spirit. Perhaps more close combat oriented.

Fast Attack: A vehicle type unit would be fun. I could even see like a 'guardian' or other spirit/angel. Unlike the seraphims these would actually be the ones they call upon. Small very elite squadrons.

Gonna have to side with Troike here. Stupidity and lack of knowledge are not the same thing, unless you're trying real hard to see it that way. It also should be noted that San Leor, at that time, is said to have been a "backwater Agri World", and as if this was not enough to limit the distribution of any available knowledge about the wider Imperium, the Daughters of the Emperor lived in secluded isolation (a tradition its convents maintain to the present day), with Vandire finding the doors of their temple barred to him. I wouldn't even assume they saw his ship, especially not since Vandire landed miles away and made a detour through a bunch of villages and farms to receive (forced) praise from the local populace before finally arriving at the temple site. GW fluff further mentions that Vandire's gambit with the forcefield was only discovered "decades later".
I don't see a reason to fault the proto-Sororitas for something that the vast majority of the Imperial populace is experiencing. Including certain Space Marines.

As for the siege, WD #293's Liber Sororitas has an article from Andy Hoare going a bit into detail on what transpired there:
"Opposed now by the combined forces of four Space Marine Chapters and a vast contingent of the Adeptus Mechanicus, Vandire was nonetheless blinded to the possibility of his own downfall. Though his forces were severely depleted and his officers were deserting him at every turn, the Brides of the Emperor stood firm by his side, and so the siege dragged on, neither side able to break it."

I assume that, eventually, they would have surely been overwhelmed, as unlike the attackers the defenders had no way of getting reinforcements and every single casualty would weaken their defense further. Nevertheless, I believe it to be a respectable feat of arms for the Sisters to have stood their ground for so long, given that "for months, the combined forces of the Tech-Guard and Space Marines tried to breach its walls, only to be constantly thwarted by the Brides of the Emperor", as the 2E Codex tells us.

Ultimately, they would have fallen, given how unlikely it is that the attackers would simply withdraw and abandon the siege. Yet at the same time, GW fluff certainly does not make it sound as if this moment was anywhere close when Dominica finally lobbed her mad master's head off. Rather, a "fight to the last (wo)man" would have taken several months more. The Custodes simply intervened to cut short an unnecessary conflict, before any more loyal Imperial servants from both sides would be killed for the aspirations of a mad man, and to better preserve the ancient buildings (one of which housed their eternal lord and master Himself) that took quite a pounding during the siege.

Troike wrote:Since GW probably isn't willing to port the Avenger over from FW, the Lightning Fighter from Soulstorm could maybe be this.

And the Lightning looks much better, too. ;p

Barring the points that Lynata already adressed.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The majority of them don't do so at the behest of the villain who tricked them into giving him their loyalty. Those that do, get called out for it as well.

How's it any different to a guard regiment killing off civilians in the Emperor's name? Or a Marine chapter purging civilians? End result is the same, soldiers killing civilians because they think that they're serving their god in doing so.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If the Custodes and the Emperor hadn't made their appeals to her, she would have died defending Vandire, because she and the rest of her kin lack the independent thinking to realize Vandire was a fool themselves. So yeah, that is explicitly what happened.

Yes they were dedicated to Vandire (whilst still under the impression that he was a prophet) but nobody "slapped sense" into her. You're phrasing it like she was verbally assaulted, when in reality the Custode was outright said to make an "impassioned plea", and gives her access to a place that the Custodes are kinda particular about who they let in. And again, we don't know what happened in the Throne room, so we can't really say that Big E definetely spoke to her himself.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Lol, I'd like you to prove that the Custodes only intervened because of how "dangerous" the Sisters were.

Why else would he intervene? If the Sisters were about to fail ike you're saying, then why would the lead Custode come and talk them down rather than let the Marines and Tech Guard finish them?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because they wouldn't have killed him at all if the Custodes, at the advice of the Astartes no less, hadn't intervened.

But Dominica was the one who made the decision to ultimately go kill him, after she went to the Throne room. Using your logic, we could give credit to the Emperor for creating the Custodes, or the ships who brought the Marines and Tech Guards down. Ultimately, Dominca was the one who reviewed the evidence and made the decision to kill Vandire.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I like Al Queida too, I guess.

...A key difference here being that Al Queida aren't fictional...

Why would you say this? Martyrdom and unwavering faith are a central part of who the Sisters are. Why would you try to cast this as a negative by comparing them to real world terrorist group who have hurt real people? Honestly, I don't see how you could like the Sisters at all if you have such a low opinion of their central themes.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
lol

I just don't have a response to this one. You've conclusively disproven what I was saying.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, so long as you completely ignore every single factor that led to them surviving the scenario and slaying the tyrant.

Which makes their slaying of him all the more climactic, IMO. They finally see Vandire for what he is, and personally end him. And they learn from the experience.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't mind them being robots. I don't even care that they're basically just robots who lack the ability to question their faith. I just recognize that being a robot isn't "a good showing".

They're not "robots", they can make independant decisions and catch on to when they're being manipulated. And why would they question their faith? Their whole thing is that they're devoted zealots. Would you rather we have Sisters who go around actively doubting the Emperor? Also, again, most Imperial factions do things because they think that their god approves, so by your logic, none of them have "a good showing".

That's one guy that just doesn't "get it." He seems to have nothing but disdain for the SOB yet posts like he's an expert on the subject. You've said your peace. No one agrees with you. Move on.

 MWHistorian wrote:
He seems to have nothing but disdain for the SOB

Then why does he have a Hospitaller avatar, an SoB picture as his signature and is on the SoB ranking track?

You don't have a signature.

 Troike wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
He seems to have nothing but disdain for the SOB

Then why does he have a Hospitaller avatar, an SoB picture as his signature and is on the SoB ranking track?

Got no idea. Also, its morning and I'm cranky. Probably coulda worded that a bit better. Need to get some caffeine.

 Ovion wrote:
You don't have a signature.

I didn't mean to imply that it was a prerequisite for liking the SoB, I just thought it was odd that somebody who had one was labelled as disliking them.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
He seems to have nothing but disdain for the SOB

Then why does he have a Hospitaller avatar, an SoB picture as his signature and is on the SoB ranking track?

Got no idea. Also, its morning and I'm cranky. Probably coulda worded that a bit better. Need to get some caffeine.

Yeah, we're probably creating needless conflict here. Apologies.

I must have misread it - I thought you said you had a sig. xD

 Sturmtruppen wrote:
Contrary to what others may think, I believe dropping their links to the Ordo Hereticus was bad. It's jarring if before the Grey Knights Codex, you were used to the idea of the Ordo Hereticus monitoring the Ecclesiarchy and utilising the Sororitas. Especially jarring if you played an Inquisitor with the Sisters and then found all Inquisitors are now in the GK Codex (although let's have some pity for the Ordo Xenos fans who only have Xenos Inquisitors and have to work with conversions).

Something else that would make the holy-trinity so to speak: Adeptus Arbites. I believe in a past Codex, you could give Storm Troopers shotguns and field them as Arbiters. It would be nice to bring the Arbites back and have them working with the Inquisition and the Sororitas.

I am behind both these ideas, I was really bummed that the Inquisitors were replaced with the lame, incredibly overcosted pseudo-inquisitors we got in WD. Also, I quite liked the anti-heretical, anti-psyker mechanics that were in the old book, fluffy or no. Why couldn't the Inquisitors just be taken from Grey Knights proper? It's not like there aren't Techmarines or whatnot printed in every other book. I think a codex written with the aim of not using too much ink was already doomed to failure.
The old book with Inquisitors was also the only way to run a Genestealer Cult properly and not counts-as Chaos or Tyranids.

Pictures of plastic sisters models, released at the same time as the Codex.

A pinup style page depicting the shower facilities entitled "battle sisters at play". Don't skimp on the debauchery.



You did ask what I want to see... I gotta know if the white haired sisters' carpets match the drapes.

* No comment *

Was that really necessary?

It was 95% necessary, yes.


I'm at work, potentially high as a kite from spray paint (semi-enclosed area) and its been a long day. I needed an outlet.

GW Codices became DeviantArt print compilations so gradually, I hardly even noticed...

Eh... as far as a Codex goes? I think we really need to get back to the C:WH/CH-era of stuff, simply updated to be on-par with the 6th Ed Meta, with expanded Faith Powers (actually, kind of re-do the whole Faith mechanics) and also add in a "Banner" system that provides a single Army-wide buff (or buff to all friendly units withing 24" or whatever) for as long as the Banner-bearer model is alive. This latter, especially, could be generated from a list, either paid for in points or generated randomly, which would allow players to depict the particular philosophy of a Minor Order. The Major Orders would have a specific Banner effect in keeping with their Codex lore.

I see the Sisters as a mid-range gunline army with effective CC units, when those CC units can be deployed properly. The Repentia Squads aren't meant to be marched up the field without cover into the face of armies with longer-ranged weapons, template weapons, and all that sort of thing.

I'd also apply AoF to individual units, but make the accumulation of Faith Points to be Army-wide, so that you can establish synergy between the different units, wherein the various valorous acts or martyring of some units bolsters the faith of the rest, allowing the controlling player to decide when and how that faith is expressed.

So, for example, my Repentia squads might have a "Swift and Sure Judgement" Faith Power, which costs, let's say, 3 Faith Points from the Army's pool, and grants them, say, +2d6" on a Charge, or "Avenge the Martyred" which grants the Repentia Squad "Preferred Enemy" against the enemy squad (or unit-type or Army-type) that inflicted casualties against them in the turn prior to activating that power. This could be explained, in and out of setting, as either divine intervention, or simply the Repentia being filled with such righteous fury and indignation that they become nearly super-human in their drive to cleanse the world of their enemies.

Meanwhile, a Retributor Squad could spend FP to invoke "Servant of the Righteous" which adds +1 S to their heavy weapons for a turn, or improves the AP, or something similar. This could be "magic bullets" or it could simply be superior training of the Sisterhood allowing them to maximize their wargear's potential.

... and of course we'd need better transports, a dedicated medium tank, a flyer or two, and a whole range of HQ options, ranging from various Canonesses to various Priests to Inquisitors of Ordo Hereticus. Plus... Frateris Militia in a Troops slot.