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 Abandon wrote:
Please stop fabricating ideas and asserting them....


They state "If both sides have models with the same Initiative, their attacks are made simultaneously".

.

Perhaps you should reread the First Blood rule pg 122. It states "If two or more units from opposing forces are removed simultaneously (for example, at the same Initiative step in an Assault phase) then both players get I Victory Point (in addition to any Victory Points from the mission)."

RAW says that casualties from the same INI Step are Simultaneous. Your argument may hold RAW weight during Shooting, but not in CC.

Fragile wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Please stop fabricating ideas and asserting them....


They state "If both sides have models with the same Initiative, their attacks are made simultaneously".

.

Perhaps you should reread the First Blood rule pg 122. It states "If two or more units from opposing forces are removed simultaneously (for example, at the same Initiative step in an Assault phase) then both players get I Victory Point (in addition to any Victory Points from the mission)."

RAW says that casualties from the same INI Step are Simultaneous. Your argument may hold RAW weight during Shooting, but not in CC.

And both sides would get a kill if the game continued until the end of said initiative pass. In this case it does not. You've yet to show that the game continues after victory conditions are met until the end of the initiative pass. You need to prove the game continues til the end of the pass for this rule to make any difference because if it does not, the OP's unit is not removed. The game was over before it could be destroyed.

You fail to understand what the word simultaneous means then. You cannot have something be simultaneous if something comes first, which you are claiming the vehicle explosion does. If your statement was true, then first blood would go to the vehicle.

Fragile wrote:
You fail to understand what the word simultaneous means then. You cannot have something be simultaneous if something comes first, which you are claiming the vehicle explosion does. If your statement was true, then first blood would go to the vehicle.

By the rule you brought forth (ty btw ) In such a scenario during the game where the initiative pass is allowed to play out, it is considered simultaneous and awards first blood. When the game ends in the middle of a pass it does not get the chance to unfold as it normally would have. If you can show that the whole pass must be completed before the game can end then I will concede to your point. Until then I maintain that once victory conditions are met, per RAW, the game is over.

Can we just say this is awesome, as the last model from each side slugging it out, one kills the other and succumbs to his own mortal wounds and everybody loses? And wins? Drinks all around. Yeah? Cheers.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Can we just say this is awesome, as the last model from each side slugging it out, one kills the other and succumbs to his own mortal wounds and everybody loses? And wins? Drinks all around. Yeah? Cheers.

In a friendly game? Absolutely! I'm just arguing RAW details, who cares when your sitting around drinking in your garage? This sounds like it was a good game, I love it when you get to slug it out to the last.

"Yet if my line should die,
It dies with its teeth in the enemy's throat,
It dies with its name on the enemy's tongue.
For just as mere life is not victory,
Mere death is not defeat;
And in the next world I shall kill the foe a thousand times,
Laughing,
Undefeated."

-A Klingon ritualistic song

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You fail to understand what the word simultaneous means then. You cannot have something be simultaneous if something comes first, which you are claiming the vehicle explosion does. If your statement was true, then first blood would go to the vehicle.

By the rule you brought forth (ty btw ) In such a scenario during the game where the initiative pass is allowed to play out, it is considered simultaneous and awards first blood. When the game ends in the middle of a pass it does not get the chance to unfold as it normally would have. If you can show that the whole pass must be completed before the game can end then I will concede to your point. Until then I maintain that once victory conditions are met, per RAW, the game is over.

It cannot end "in the middle of a pass". To do so voids the very definition of simultaneous.

Fragile wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You fail to understand what the word simultaneous means then. You cannot have something be simultaneous if something comes first, which you are claiming the vehicle explosion does. If your statement was true, then first blood would go to the vehicle.

By the rule you brought forth (ty btw ) In such a scenario during the game where the initiative pass is allowed to play out, it is considered simultaneous and awards first blood. When the game ends in the middle of a pass it does not get the chance to unfold as it normally would have. If you can show that the whole pass must be completed before the game can end then I will concede to your point. Until then I maintain that once victory conditions are met, per RAW, the game is over.

It cannot end "in the middle of a pass". To do so voids the very definition of simultaneous.

Actually it does not. CC attacks of the same initiative are stated to happen at the same time during that step. Other mechanics often based on those attacks are not taken until the end of the initiative step. IE acid blood:

"Q: When attacking models with the acid blood biomorph, when are the
Initiative tests taken? (p84)
A: Resolve any tests and remove any casualties at the end of
each Initiative step.

Not everything that happens in an initiative step is simultaneous.

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You fail to understand what the word simultaneous means then. You cannot have something be simultaneous if something comes first, which you are claiming the vehicle explosion does. If your statement was true, then first blood would go to the vehicle.

By the rule you brought forth (ty btw ) In such a scenario during the game where the initiative pass is allowed to play out, it is considered simultaneous and awards first blood. When the game ends in the middle of a pass it does not get the chance to unfold as it normally would have. If you can show that the whole pass must be completed before the game can end then I will concede to your point. Until then I maintain that once victory conditions are met, per RAW, the game is over.

It cannot end "in the middle of a pass". To do so voids the very definition of simultaneous.

Actually it does not. CC attacks of the same initiative are stated to happen at the same time during that step. Other mechanics often based on those attacks are not taken until the end of the initiative step. IE acid blood:

"Q: When attacking models with the acid blood biomorph, when are the
Initiative tests taken? (p84)
A: Resolve any tests and remove any casualties at the end of
each Initiative step.

Not everything that happens in an initiative step is simultaneous.

It does not matter the order in which you resolve things during each I step. The rules state that for game purposes everthing that happened during that I step is simultaneous. So if you killed a "unit" in an I step and then your "unit" died to Acid blood. Rule would hold that to be at the same time.

Unless the game ended before everything could be resolved. That is why the order of resolution matters. Nothing says the end of game is delayed for any reason. It does not say to resolve ongoing mechanics before ending. It does not say to resolve unfinished portions of the turn either. It says the game is over. You stop rolling dice. You don't continue playing. It's done.

Order of resolution does not matter, when the rules say the events are simultaneous. You cannot resolve the vehicle explosion without resolving the wounds on the unit, otherwise they would not be simultaneous.

No matter how you try to justify it, the I Steps must be resolved fully, otherwise you have broken RAW.

If the attacks are not resolved simultaneously (including rolling all simultaneous dice before moving on to anything else) then how do you determine who gets to roll their attacks first? You've just given a huge advantage to the player who rolls their "simultaneous" dice first, so who should get it? Or should both players throw their dice at the table as fast as possible in a desperate attempt to kill the other player's model before they can finish rolling their own dice?

Fragile wrote:
Order of resolution does not matter...

This is not true.

Fragile wrote:

when the rules say the events are simultaneous.

It says CC attacks are simultaneous, not everything in the I step.

Fragile wrote:

You cannot resolve the vehicle explosion without resolving the wounds on the unit, otherwise they would not be simultaneous.

Since the first thing that happens is the vehicle is destroyed and RAW says the game ends when the army is wiped and it is that last unit that player has... where are you permitted to continue rolling dice? You keep saying you can't stop in the middle because they are 'simultaneous' but I see nothing about that in the rules. I don't know how you define 'game over' but it generally means you stop at that point.

Fragile wrote:

No matter how you try to justify it, the I Steps must be resolved fully, otherwise you have broken RAW.

Fragile wrote:

try to justify it, the I Steps must be resolved fully

Fragile wrote:

I Steps must be resolved fully

I have already shown that not everything happens simultaneously. I'll even provide an example:

My HT and an enemy model are in CC. We both go in the same I pass. It wounds my HT and I kill it at the same time. My Acid Blood is triggered but has no target and does not cause any effect. Why? Because their is in fact a chronological order that things unfold in the same initiative step.... That means not everything is simultaneous. So, theory that it all happens at once and must all resolve when the game ends is debunked.

So please provide a rule backing up your statement in light of the above.

 Abandon wrote:
My HT and an enemy model are in CC. We both go in the same I pass. It wounds my HT and I kill it at the same time. My Acid Blood is triggered but has no target and does not cause any effect. Why? Because their is in fact a chronological order that things unfold in the same initiative step.... That means not everything is simultaneous. So, theory that it all happens at once and must all resolve when the game ends is debunked.

That's a terrible example because you're talking about an event triggered by another event, which by definition can't be happening simultaneously. With multiple models attacking at the same initiative step everything does happen simultaneously and you only roll dice one after the other because it's much simpler to just resolve one set of attacks then the next set.

They do happen simultaneously, but the exploding vehicle loses. The chaplain and walker hit each other, the chaplain lived while the walker died. Upon its death it then blew up. It was dead/destroyed first, then it blew up.

That's how I read it but I am still really new.

I think any time you lose a chaplain to an exploding warwalker, you should always count as losing.

The only Double KO I've had involved rapid firing plasmaguns on overwatch. I had a plasma pistol gunslinging vet with 2 plasmagun packing assault marines (blood angels) over-watch at the wounded and charging chaos lord.
I roll up a 6, a miss, and four 1's.
The lord gets hit, and he fails his save (dying); while I fail 3 out of 4 armor saves from over-heat.

My opponent awarded me the "up side of the draw" on the basis of marines would fight to the last man to take out chaos; where as chaos would prefer to fallback and regroup to attack again a few decades later.

Or another way to see it. If you both rolled simultaneously you would both roll to hit, both resolve hits, both roll to wound, both resolve wounds. The walker is dead at this point, while the chaplain is still alive.

 Peregrine wrote:
If the attacks are not resolved simultaneously (including rolling all simultaneous dice before moving on to anything else) then how do you determine who gets to roll their attacks first? You've just given a huge advantage to the player who rolls their "simultaneous" dice first, so who should get it? Or should both players throw their dice at the table as fast as possible in a desperate attempt to kill the other player's model before they can finish rolling their own dice?

CC attacks are specifically stated as being simultaneous, so it does not matter who rolls first. Pile-ins and other effects are necessarily not so and those events need to happen in an order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
My HT and an enemy model are in CC. We both go in the same I pass. It wounds my HT and I kill it at the same time. My Acid Blood is triggered but has no target and does not cause any effect. Why? Because their is in fact a chronological order that things unfold in the same initiative step.... That means not everything is simultaneous. So, theory that it all happens at once and must all resolve when the game ends is debunked.

That's a terrible example because you're talking about an event triggered by another event, which by definition can't be happening simultaneously. With multiple models attacking at the same initiative step everything does happen simultaneously and you only roll dice one after the other because it's much simpler to just resolve one set of attacks then the next set.

And we are speaking a such an event where the Damage from an exploding vehicle necessarily does not take place until it is destroyed. Both are triggered effects from wounds/penetrating hits and both deal damage to the attacker. As far is the order of events, these are exactly the same.

So would you say that wounds and saves made at an I step during that combat are not considered to be simultaneous then?

 Abandon wrote:
It says CC attacks are simultaneous, not everything in the I step.

The rules say otherwise. Until you can cite something that says otherwise. All of these I Step examples would resolve at the same time, even your Acid Blood ones.

Apart from Acid Blood, which states it happens at the end of the I step. So not simultaneous then.

If it occurs during the I4 step, even if it is at the "end" of the step it would be considered at the same time. Everything within that specific Initiative number counts as simultaneous. At the end of it would be just how it is resolved.

So you acknowledge there is an order, but still claim it is simultaneous?

Despite an order making that impossible?

Really?

Sorry nos, but having caught up I'm with Fragile on this. You can have an order to figure out the results of an action that the net result of is then considered simultaneous.
A shooting attack is a perfect example. You have a rulebook-defined order in which you roll to hit, then to wound, then take saves, FNP etc... all of that is then considered the simultaneous result of one unit's shooting before you can move onto the next unit.

You;re told all close combat attacks are simultaneous at the I step, but Acid Blood isnt a close combat attakc....and it has a defined point at which it happens - AFTER close combat attacks.

There is no analogy here to a unit shooting.

Acid Blood I can agree with. However, the original situation - the Chaplain exploding the tank - is as a direct result of the Chaplain's close combat attack, so it should still count as simultaneous there, right?

You still need to follow the steps... I can't choose pile in after attacking - If everything within a I step was simultaneous, then I could choose to resolve hits before piling in...

IMO, the rules say swings and casualties from opposing units are simultaneous, this enforces the way CC works and stops the controlling player being able to remove oponent casualties and not receive the hits back. I don't see anywhere mentioned all actions at a I step are simultaneous.

Just because the resolution of a rules mechanic is sequential, doesn't mean that they are not considered to be simultaneous.

This is the danger of over-emphasising the importance of "attacks" being simultaneous and nothing else being referred to as that.

By this I mean something like two opposing models with power fists engaging in MAD mutually assured destruction.

They both attack at I1. wound and drop dead simultaneously.
If 1 model happened to have an invulnerable save, it would not survive any longer because it has an additional mechanic to resolve.

 fuusa wrote:
Just because the resolution of a rules mechanic is sequential, doesn't mean that they are not considered to be simultaneous.

This is the danger of over-emphasising the importance of "attacks" being simultaneous and nothing else being referred to as that.

By this I mean something like two opposing models with power fists engaging in MAD mutually assured destruction.

They both attack at I1. wound and drop dead simultaneously.
If 1 model happened to have an invulnerable save, it would not survive any longer because it has an additional mechanic to resolve.

What I am saying is IMO the simultaneous aspect of CC is the simultaneous actions of Controlled and oposing units, and not the sequencing within the I step. As in, the Actions taken by Controlling and Oposing players within a I step are simultaneous, however the steps suchs as Pile in and Rolls to hit are not.

Example being...
Controlling player rolls to hit, this is considered simultaneous to the Opposing players roll to hit (If it wasn't then you get all kinds of positioning problems...)
Controlling player rolls to wound, this is considered simultaneous to the Opposing players roll to wound, but not simultaneous to (either sides) rolls to hit.

This is what the rules say, the rules do not say all steps in a Innitiative step are simultaneous

 Super Ready wrote:
Acid Blood I can agree with. However, the original situation - the Chaplain exploding the tank - is as a direct result of the Chaplain's close combat attack, so it should still count as simultaneous there, right?

Why would it be? The explosion itself has an enforced sequence, that does result in the game ending conditions being met BEFORE the chaplain bites the dust.

You are told close combat attacks are simultaneous - nothing requires that *anything* within an I step is therefore simultaneous.