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I wasn't sure which forum to post this in, possibly army lists, but here goes anyway... I'm hard at work repainting my CSM force and noticed that with the new-ish codex I have around 175 points under 2000 points (the army used to be 2k pts exactly). So I've checked out the codex and read online and it seems the Heldrake is a literally hell for an opponent to face, and for 170 points it fits the gap perfectly. I have only 2 issues - firstly, it is pretty damn expensive at £45, which I can just about afford and it looks awesome, but I have never spent so much on a single non-apocalypse model before. Secondly, my army list as it stands has pretty much no anti-tank (one of my local opponents plays necs and likes to field 3 monoliths even in small games), and I am not sure if the Heldrake is a good enough unit to deal with tanks with vector strike. The only anti-tank I have right now is a melta in a 12-man marine squad, a Helbrute with multi-melta, and a few less-precise options such as the sorceror if he gets a good enough psychic power to harm armour. I kind of feel as though the 170pts would be better spent on some melta-bikes, havocs or obliterators (the list literally has not a single heavy support option taken up right now), but then again the Heldrake seems too damn good to resist.

To answer your question -

Yeah, pretty much!

Handy tip if you do buy one.

Paint it sectionally, then assemble.

Apparently it's a bit of a git to paint when fully assembled

It pretty much ended the golden age of the MEQ singlehandedly. So yeah.

I honestly haven't had too much trouble with them, but I regularly field a Storm Raven with MM and LC, and the only CSM player I have played regularly only usually fields one.

That said, I have no problem in believing they're a nightmare to deal with in multiples, or if you are in anyway lacking in decent AA.

As for price, try here

http://www.darksphere.co.uk/p.php?p=47376&c=101

Should at least solve your price problem a little.

As a Cron player, yes...they are that good. Depends on how competitive your meta is.

Against a full wraithwing or a Bakery, usefulness is probably less, but anything which has troops or is not a full bakery will have a really bad time.

I was playing against a triple heldrake list today and got my head handed to me on a platter. I'd been experimenting with units, so my list wasn't bakery level but literally anything in the open will get killed by a drake. The fact that you can flame behind you makes it difficult to use movement to shut the heldrake down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2 is probably the sweet spot.

One Helldrake might be one Helldrake to little as they always are one shot away from being useless. Especially at 2k points your enemy usually can cope with 2 or more fliers, one will die a horrible death.

Helddrake pros:

Can fly
Excellent at damaging meq units
Hard to destroy


Heldrake cons:

Can't hold objectives
Can't engage anything in melee with its mechanical talons
Can't transport a giddy commander on its back
Can't tank shock enemies
Don't have a tail and thus cannot tail whip enemies
Don't come with button-activated 'real roaring action'
Can be insta-killed by an aerial grey knights nemesis force weapon!
Are too big to fit in any regular carrying case
Take up valuable fast attack slots that could be used by warp talons, the far superior meq killing unit


Ergo, the heldrake's pros are completely outweighed by its long list of cons. They are mediocre units without real merit and should only be considered an inclusion in fluffy themed lists of if you want to give yourself a handicap. To sum up this post, no, no they are not really that good.

That would have been funny if the thread was full of whiney posts about how the Heldrake is crap, but since it isn't, it fell flat on its face unfortunately. Good effort though

Researching more into the subject, looks like my hands are pretty much tied. 6th Edition in a nutshell = flyers are win, and as such I'll definitely be getting one, and probably another one or two sonner or later. I had a chance to see the model in person and it's bigger than I thought so I'm not as fussed about the price tag anymore, and honestly I just want to vector strike some hapless marines

 KhorneOnTheCob wrote:
Researching more into the subject, looks like my hands are pretty much tied. 6th Edition in a nutshell = flyers are win, and as such I'll definitely be getting one, and probably another one or two sonner or later. I had a chance to see the model in person and it's bigger than I thought so I'm not as fussed about the price tag anymore, and honestly I just want to vector strike some hapless marines

Remember

http://www.darksphere.co.uk/p.php?p=47376&c=101

You owe it to yourself, and can get two for only a small amount more than the cost of one direct!

As a nid and DE player I really don't be much issues from them but I knew for almost any MEQ list they are a nightmare.

Researching more into the subject, looks like my hands are pretty much tied. 6th Edition in a nutshell = flyers are win, and as such I'll definitely be getting one, and probably another one or two sonner or later. I had a chance to see the model in person and it's bigger than I thought so I'm not as fussed about the price tag anymore, and honestly I just want to vector strike some hapless marines

I don't think that "flyers are win" is 6th edition in a nutshell at all. Look at the lists winning events. You see about 4 flyers max (almost always Crons). Aside from the Night Scythe, Helldrake, Vendetta, Storm Talon, and maybe the Storm Raven, flyers are relatively mediocre.

Yes, the Drake is game changing. Yes, you should take 1-2 for a competitive CSM army. However, I would not feel compelled to take flyers in general.

BaconUprising wrote:
As a nid and DE player I really don't be much issues from them but I knew for almost any MEQ list they are a nightmare.

Considering the fact that it can also do D3 + 1 S7 AP3 ignore cover vector strikes, I don't see how DE that rely on cover and Nid MCs with 3+ armor save is not having issues.
But YMMV.

Heldrakes are just to good to not take, playing without them feels more like a handicap than anything else.

 Badablack wrote:
Helddrake pros:

Can fly
Excellent at damaging meq units
Hard to destroy


Heldrake cons:

Can't hold objectives
Can't engage anything in melee with its mechanical talons
Can't transport a giddy commander on its back
Can't tank shock enemies
Don't have a tail and thus cannot tail whip enemies
Don't come with button-activated 'real roaring action'
Can be insta-killed by an aerial grey knights nemesis force weapon!
Are too big to fit in any regular carrying case
Take up valuable fast attack slots that could be used by warp talons, the far superior meq killing unit


Ergo, the heldrake's pros are completely outweighed by its long list of cons. They are mediocre units without real merit and should only be considered an inclusion in fluffy themed lists of if you want to give yourself a handicap. To sum up this post, no, no they are not really that good.

I don't even understand some of this trollery.

Drakes are solid gold for less than what the gold is actually worth.

OP Run 2+ if you want them to do some cool stuff.

No, helldrakes aren't the awesome overlords of the sky. There's a lot of reasons for this, but the most damning one is... they're not necessary.

Against light infantry, you have no possible shortage of stuff that can kill them. Even regular CSM with no upgrades will beat most light infantry in close combat, and, at their price, you can bolter spam them as well. And there are plenty of things that get flamers, and lots of shots, and LOTS of stuff that's great in close combat against foot hordes. In fact, it's kind of hard to find stuff, that ISN'T good against hordes in this codex.

Meanwhile, you're not exactly missing out against MEq either. Once again, CSM are cheaper than regular SM, so they'll win bolter fights. Conversely, they can be the same price, but be twice as good in close combat, and that's just on the most rudamentary option, before you even begin to consider marks.

Add to that you have 1ksons with Ap3 bolters, noise marines with Ap3 ignores cover blastmasters and +1I (and +1A if you pay for it), and you have berzerkers which hideously chump practically everything Sv3+ in close combat. And you have possessed, and you have warp talons, and obliterators with TL plasma and power fists, and cheap termiantors (which can take a LOT of combi-plasma, and everyone gets a power weapon), and maulerfiends, and even really stupid options like mutilators, defilers, and hellbrutes.

I mean, really, how much help do you really need killing space marines? Your whole codex is filled with stuff that will beat MEq. And for pittance, they can get hatred: space marines on everything as well.

The biggest reason that the helldrake isn't all that its cracked up to be is that it's just plain old unnecessary. You should be able to handle Sv3+ with plenty of other things. Other things that have other advantages like being scoring, or being good against vehicles or monstrous creatures as well.

Giving a helldrake to a CSM player is like giving more lasguns to a guard player. They only do one thing well, and you've already got plenty of things handling that niche.

The amount of times I've popped a transport in my movement phase only to bale the poor sods that come out of it...

People who are saying the slot is better filled by other means, simply don't want to admit that the Heldrake is a phenomenal unit.

It simply takes the cake in terms of of MEQ killy. You don't get better options than that. Take 1-2 in any regular game 1500 and you can mop up any infantry model that isn't in TEQ. If your opponent brings TEQ, who cares? You can still force wounds by hitting nearly his entire squad with 1 template you get to place up to 12" away from your drake to manage a perfect hit on any model you choose..

Otherwise fill your fast attack slot with Bikers of Nurgle.. There is no reason to ever pick any other option. And to anyone who says the Warp Talons are a good choice... LOL Stop trolling this poor fella.... They are the most expensive and situationally terrible unit in the whole codex, aside from the Mutilators.

160 points for 5 unmarked Duel Lightning Claw Jump Pack Infantry that has a gimmicky rule for deepstrike that you will make 2/6 times is NOT fun, nor entertaining when they get sent off to the warp due to you failing that deepstrike..

I think the helldrake is considerably better than Ailaros makes it out to be. Let's put it this way: if the helldrakes didn't exist, I would never use Stormravens in any TAC lists.

 Ailaros wrote:
No, helldrakes aren't the awesome overlords of the sky. There's a lot of reasons for this, but the most damning one is... they're not necessary.

[snip...]

The biggest reason that the helldrake isn't all that its cracked up to be is that it's just plain old unnecessary. You should be able to handle Sv3+ with plenty of other things. Other things that have other advantages like being scoring, or being good against vehicles or monstrous creatures as well.

Being "unnecessary" doesn't detract from how good the unit is. [rant]Night Scythes are unnecessary for warriors but interweb insists on far too many of those.[/rant]

Not being a CSM player I'll leave it to others to debate the finer points, but if I had access to a flyer (6+ to hit), which hit a unit underneath with D3+1 S7 (side armour for vehicles) attacks THEN flame a different unit with an S6AP3 ignores cover and start the template 12" from the model for 170 pts it would be VERY difficult for any foot based unit to come close. How many foot based units can meaningfully attack 2 different units in the same turn, after moving say 18"?

OP, take 2!

But night scythes ARE necessary for warriors. Warriors have terrible mobility, and terrible durability.

And being good at something that isn't necessary is pointless.

 Ailaros wrote:
But night scythes ARE necessary for warriors. Warriors have terrible mobility, and terrible durability.

Take a ghost ark. Then you get to repair warriors if they die, plus you get split fire. Also, higher AV so harder to kill. Re durability, they have LD10 and a 4+ save, which is not that bad.

 Ailaros wrote:

And being good at something that isn't necessary is pointless.

Well, that depends on the order of looking at it, doesn't it? If you start with the Heldrake as a base, then 1ksons, noise marines and bezerkers are pointless, particularly as in your examples CC was a key factor. Why get into a knife fight when you can destroy the unit from range?

Don't get me wrong - I've read your recent batreps (v good by the way! ) and really like the way your list plays - I don't think you really NEED heldrakes. If you'd had them, though, your last game vs CSM/Cron would have been different because you would have been able to get to the noise marines in cover and forced the opponent to devote some firepower to taking down yours. Course, that's a big chunk of Bezerkers you'd have to lose to pay for them.

So, as a person playing against them, I'd be more worried about a pair of heldrakes than a foot army coming at me (but I have Tesla, so that comment may not be true for everyone).

I will also mention to the OP that you can magnetize the weapon, and run a Drake with the Autocannon for now if you really need anti-vehicle, and switch it over to the Baleflamer later.

While I generally respect Ailaros' opinion, to me the reason the Drake is so good is that it is extremely effective at certain things (killing MEQs and AV10-11 side armor vehicles), yet there are very few armies against which it will be ineffective (pretty much only TEQ armies). Against say Orks, while you may be killing cheap models, you are still likely to roughly kill its points value over the course of the game between Vector Strikes and the Baleflamer, even if you're mostly killing cannon fodder.

Also, Ailaros, while the units you list perform as you explain, it seems like most CSM players aren't using those units much, except for the Obliterators. I'm not trying to argue the merits of say Thousand Sons, but at least on the internet they aren't seeing much use. Whereas the stuff that does show up (Plague Marines) aren't terribly good at killing MEQs, and Drakes give a lot of armies fits.

I don't use the Helldrake personally but there's no denying it's incredibly useful. It shifts weak units off of objectives in a single blast, can vector strike, has a turret weapon so maneuvering isn't as much of an issue, never has to jink due to it's 5+ invulnerable, and it's AV12. Oh and anything without sky fire hits it on 6's. So it's very durable, brings a very respectable punch, and will more often than not have an impact on the game greater than its point value.

I don't believe that the only way to run comp CSM is to triple helldrake it, but yes, it really is that good.

 Ailaros wrote:
Meanwhile, you're not exactly missing out against MEq either. Once again, CSM are cheaper than regular SM, so they'll win bolter fights. Conversely, they can be the same price, but be twice as good in close combat, and that's just on the most rudamentary option, before you even begin to consider marks.

Right, they will win Bolter fights that will take the whole game to resolve. Or we could just burn them to death in one or two fell swoops without needing to worry about cover or line or sight, or fear of reprisal. Right, a Bolter fight is just as good as a Heldrake

 Ailaros wrote:
Add to that you have 1ksons with Ap3 bolters, noise marines with Ap3 ignores cover blastmasters and +1I (and +1A if you pay for it), and you have berzerkers which hideously chump practically everything Sv3+ in close combat. And you have possessed, and you have warp talons, and obliterators with TL plasma and power fists, and cheap termiantors (which can take a LOT of combi-plasma, and everyone gets a power weapon), and maulerfiends, and even really stupid options like mutilators, defilers, and hellbrutes.

I mean, really, how much help do you really need killing space marines? Your whole codex is filled with stuff that will beat MEq. And for pittance, they can get hatred: space marines on everything as well.

When competitive lists actually start using awful units like Berserkers and 1k Sons then you might have a point. Ironically these are units that cost more than the Heldrake and don't kill the Marines as swiftly or as easily either, while not being as durable. Your whole point here is that the Heldrake is unnecessary but your reasoning behind it is that you can take units that are more expensive, not as killy, not as sturdy, and generally less good instead. Simply put, the units you are advocating instead of the Drake aren't worth taking at all in a competitive list, so it doesn't make your point rather than it breaks it.

 Ailaros wrote:
The biggest reason that the helldrake isn't all that its cracked up to be is that it's just plain old unnecessary. You should be able to handle Sv3+ with plenty of other things. Other things that have other advantages like being scoring, or being good against vehicles or monstrous creatures as well.

Giving a helldrake to a CSM player is like giving more lasguns to a guard player. They only do one thing well, and you've already got plenty of things handling that niche.

Again as others have said, under your logic 99% of the units in the game are unnecessary because the army has something else that could do the job, however your logic is based on the fallacy that all of these options are equal. Sure we have other ways of dealing with MEQ, but none of them are as good at it. You are advocating a handicap plain and simple.

BTW, thanks for ignoring the Drake's other benefits, such as being sturdy and having that Vector Strike too. Name another unit that can take out a vehicle and a unit in the same turn without having to be lynched into assaulting.

They might not be the best thing ever, but the Drake has changed the metagame, and I think you went over the top in your argument to try and say why you don't like it (though as I recall you make a name for yourself using sub-par units to success anyway, so no surprises there). I do respect your opinion on the matter though, however I don't anything as unnecessary unless the alternatives are in my list in the first place, which they are not.

 Ailaros wrote:
Add to that you have 1ksons with Ap3 bolters...

1K Sons are priced as if their sorcerer could take prescience every game and their invulnerable save was a feel no pain roll. I'll take them for fun lists, but they really don't stand up well in a competitive environment. Too expensive, too niche.

The thing with the helldrake is that it can kill vehicles with vector strikes and then roast the delicious innards. 1K Sons can only do that if their sorcerer rolls Doombolt and they find something they can beat in assault. That's if they get in range with their slow and purposeful rule. They're the absolute last choice for dealing with marines. And in a codex where you have a unit that is cheaper, more versatile, and better at its job there really is no contest where to put your points. Thousand Sons shouldn't be one of the units you're supporting your argument with. They're inefficient at best and garbage at worst.

People seriously take Rubric marines to kill MeQs? I thought that using them as paper weights was what you were supposed to do with them?

 Kain wrote:
People seriously take Rubric marines to kill MeQs? I thought that using them as paper weights was what you were supposed to do with them?

Hahaha exalted!

 gpfunk wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Add to that you have 1ksons with Ap3 bolters...

1K Sons are priced as if their sorcerer could take prescience every game and their invulnerable save was a feel no pain roll. I'll take them for fun lists, but they really don't stand up well in a competitive environment. Too expensive, too niche.

The thing with the helldrake is that it can kill vehicles with vector strikes and then roast the delicious innards. 1K Sons can only do that if their sorcerer rolls Doombolt and they find something they can beat in assault. That's if they get in range with their slow and purposeful rule. They're the absolute last choice for dealing with marines. And in a codex where you have a unit that is cheaper, more versatile, and better at its job there really is no contest where to put your points. Thousand Sons shouldn't be one of the units you're supporting your argument with. They're inefficient at best and garbage at worst.

Tsons could have AP2 bolters, it still wouldnt be worth it.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:under your logic 99% of the units in the game are unnecessary because the army has something else that could do the job.

Are you really going to say that a unit that only does one thing well makes the other 99% of the codex unnecessary? Because that's not what I'm saying at all.

And I think that's what you're missing. Just because a unit can do one thing a little bit better than 99% of the rest of the codex does not mean that it's a necessary unit to the codex. You're already obligated to spend points on what the helldrake does, and have many ways of spending those obligatory points that are already good (or at least good enough) at what the helldrake does. Because you're already doing what the helldrake does, you don't need to take a helldrake.

Yes, you could make your other good-against-MEq units terrible at handling MEq so that they can handle other things poorly because the helldrake handles them better, but the end result is a horrific waste of both efficiency and effectiveness. Whatever you gain with this strategy is going to be much more than made up for by the loss. It's better to take the units that are already good enough against MEq so that you can have anti-tank specialists handle tanks than to take helldrakes to handle MEq so that you can spend way too many points for other units to badly handle tanks. In the first scenario, you're handling MEq and tanks, while in the second, you're handling MEq slightly better, and then have a weak and bloated anti-tank part of your list.

We can say for certain that you don't need helldrakes to beat MEq armies (I've seen it on numerous occasions and have done it myself in 100% of the games I've played so far, and that's before we start talking about the theory side which backs this viewpoint up). It's also certain that if you had a mythical army made of just helldrakes, you'd lose practically every game. Anyone who showed up with vehicles or terminators or a horde would basically auto-win against you.

Both of these are true at the same time because the helldrake's niche is very narrow, and because that niche can easily be filled without them.

The main thing unique about the Heldrake and why it changed the meta so drastically is that it will break open most transports like a tin can and then roast your tightly bunched infantry piling out. This made mechmarines, mechdar, mechorks, and old school mechguard suicidal as you may as well have just given the Chaos player free kill points.

Now the meta has adjusted to avoid the orgy of barbaquing and metal boxes taken away that was early 6e.