Defense attorney: Bradley Manning a whistleblower

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**hotsauceman1**

Seaward wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
From the grainy video how are they able to tell that is a camera?

There's a camera. Which is irrelevant, because there are also weapons.

which is what I'm saying, You can go over the video many times, like when they zoomed in and showed grainy video of the two kids.
They had a luxury the pilots didnt, which is to go over the video numerous times an pick out details. I dont fly but I doubt pilots could see those kids when they had to zoom in to show it on the video.
And why where war Photographers hanging outs with dudes with weapons?

**xole**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Seaward wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
From the grainy video how are they able to tell that is a camera?

There's a camera. Which is irrelevant, because there are also weapons.

which is what I'm saying, You can go over the video many times, like when they zoomed in and showed grainy video of the two kids.
They had a luxury the pilots didnt, which is to go over the video numerous times an pick out details. I dont fly but I doubt pilots could see those kids when they had to zoom in to show it on the video.
And why where war Photographers hanging outs with dudes with weapons?

The most probable reason is to make recruitment videos.

**CptJake**

The other part of the luxury they had is they were not actively flying a rotary wing aircraft in a combat zone while viewing the video. I suspect between safely keeping the aircraft in the sky, scanning for threats, monitoring several radio nets, staying in the piece of sky they were allocated and so on makes the viewing in real time a bit different than sitting on your couch with a lap top and a pause button.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

xole wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Seaward wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
From the grainy video how are they able to tell that is a camera?

There's a camera. Which is irrelevant, because there are also weapons.

which is what I'm saying, You can go over the video many times, like when they zoomed in and showed grainy video of the two kids.
They had a luxury the pilots didnt, which is to go over the video numerous times an pick out details. I dont fly but I doubt pilots could see those kids when they had to zoom in to show it on the video.
And why where war Photographers hanging outs with dudes with weapons?

The most probable reason is to make recruitment videos.

That is a big part of it (they are also used for AARs) but if you watch (at least in the unedited version) you can see the camera dude, after popping up around the corner to take pictures of the US ground unit, show the pictures he took to the insurgents he is with. That can easily be understood as an indicator of tactical reconnaissance (hey guys, look, there is an armed hummer with x troops 2 blocks away, this is how they are arrayed and where they are focused).

Again, it was a legit engagement. The 15-6 investigations (even the redacted versions you can find on the web) actually show the last few pictures taken by the camera they recovered. It does show what I described above.

**Jihadin**

Again D-USA. Welcome to UCMJ. . Even if they're on "Death Row" awaiting final confirmation of execution by the PoTUS is completion of the sentencing. . Bush gave to confirmation to have someone executed but a federal judge blocked it citing the individual haven't exhausted his appeals yet. Yet its confirmed he is to die in the future till all his appeals are exhausted. Like I said before. You have to understand UCMJ which it seems your unwilling to nor seeing. Because your comparing federal/state laws to it also the fact your drawing it off by throwing in "length of stay before execution" by those individuals that were confirmed in court of law their sentence to those awaiting confirmation by the POTUS.. You work in a VA center/retirement home. Get clarification from a retired JAG lawyer there. I do seriously think a face to face discussion on "Death Penalty" with a JAG lawyer will help clear up what your missing.

**d-usa**

Jihadin wrote:
Again D-USA. Welcome to UCMJ. . Even if they're on "Death Row" awaiting final confirmation of execution by the PoTUS is completion of the sentencing. . Bush gave to confirmation to have someone executed but a federal judge blocked it citing the individual haven't exhausted his appeals yet. Yet its confirmed he is to die in the future till all his appeals are exhausted. Like I said before. You have to understand UCMJ which it seems your unwilling to nor seeing. Because your comparing federal/state laws to it also the fact your drawing it off by throwing in "length of stay before execution" by those individuals that were confirmed in court of law their sentence to those awaiting confirmation by the POTUS.. You work in a VA center/retirement home. Get clarification from a retired JAG lawyer there. I do seriously think a face to face discussion on "Death Penalty" with a JAG lawyer will help clear up what your missing.

1) when was the last guy sentenced?
2) when has he been executed?
3) did it take 2-4 years as you claim?

**CptJake**

A Ralph Peters editorial that makes some of the points I tried to bring up about leadership failures.

On a side note, Peters' novel 'Red Army' is one of the best WWIII novels out there. Well worth getting it from your library or buying a used copy from Amazon or someplace. I like all his books, the fiction and the non-fiction but this has always been my favorite.

On another note, he gave my class a lecture when he was still on active duty (as a Major) when I was a CPT going through the MI Transition course (where they attempted to turn us combat arms types into intel types before joining us with the MI pure types in what is now called the Captains Career Course.

New York Post
July 31, 2013
Pg. 25

Manning’s Enablers

The US Army — and our schools

By Ralph Peters

Yesterday, military judge Col. Denise Lind found Wikileaker Pfc. Bradley Manning guilty on five counts of espionage, as well as multiple counts of theft, computer fraud and military infractions. Giving Manning every benefit of the doubt, the judge found him not guilty of the charge of intentionally aiding the enemy — but still convicted him on 19 of 21 counts.

Now begins the separate sentencing phase of Manning’s military trial. But the long “guilty” list ensures he’ll spend decades in a military prison.

Yet two “unindicted co-conspirators” were missing in the dock throughout the trial. Not Julian Assange and his Wiki-gnomes, but the US Army and our blame-America culture.

Consider the guilt of the Army and Military Intelligence. Six weeks into basic training, Manning was tapped to be discharged as unsuitable. But the Army, hungry for even the worst cuts of meat, not only canceled the discharge move, but sent him to its Intelligence Center and School, granting him a Top Secret/Special Compartmentalized Information (TS/SCI) clearance.

Initially stationed at Ft. Drum, NY, Manning was referred for mental-health counseling. But he kept that sensitive clearance. Then he was sent to Iraq, where his behavior was erratic and provocative, but he continued to have access to high-level intelligence until he threw a destructive office tantrum and had to be restrained.

Eventually, he was demoted one grade and, finally, sent to work in a supply room. But the damage was already done: a vast dump of confidential and secret US government documents.

Extreme political correctness and the Army’s insatiable appetite for troops with top clearances had combined to enable the largest leak of classified information in our history.

Prior to 9/11, a soldier could lose his or her clearance over a minor infraction and access to Special Compartmentalized Information was granted on a strict “need to know” basis. To lose access today, you have to hand over 700,000 classified documents to WikiLeaks or give the Chinese and Russians the NSA’s gravest secrets.

Back when I served in Military Intelligence, Manning never would’ve gotten a clearance in the first place — warning flags were everywhere. Same thing with Edward Snowden: He never should have gotten a clearance of any kind.

But serious vetting ended with 9/11: Today, it’s just a meat market.

None of this excuses Manning’s betrayal of his country. But the Army and the intelligence community need to do some soul-searching.

The other enabler that helped make Manning the disaster he became is our patriotism-trashing, dumb-it-way-down culture.

Want to find the root of the reflexive anti-Americanism and irresponsibility that propelled Manning, Snowden and others to betray their country? Start with the removal of serious history study from our classrooms.

What are kids taught about our country now? They learn about our “collective guilt” for slavery — but not about the hundreds of thousands of Americans who died ending it. They learn about the “crime” of dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki — but not about the Bataan Death March. Guadalcanal? The Bulge? Nah. But they learn about the internment of Japanese-Americans — a regrettable mistake, but not the Holocaust.

In short, kids are programmed to feel ashamed of the United States of America. Young men such as Manning (who, yes, also attended school in peevishly anti-American Wales for several years) or Snowden make fateful decisions in a mental and moral near-vacuum littered with anti-American garbage.

And think of all the Hollywood films, television series and talk shows preaching endlessly that the real bad guys are the Feds (or the US Marines — thanks, James Cameron).

Undoubtedly, Manning and Snowden are troubled souls. But they’re also narcissistic, dishonest and malicious. The fact that each has defenders only validates the points made above: In pop culture and the classroom, America’s a menace.

It’s a shame that Col. Lind, the judge, couldn’t render a much broader verdict.

Ralph Peters is a former US Army Military Intelligence enlisted man and officer.

**d-usa**

Article makes good points about the failure of the army to get rid of him.

Then it becomes poor garbage talking about the failure of not teaching kids to love this country enough.

**Crablezworth**

d-usa wrote:
Then it becomes poor garbage talking about the failure of not teaching kids to love this country enough.

Yeah I was more or less enjoying the read until I got there. The wiki-"gnomes" comment was a tip off.

**CptJake**

d-usa wrote:
Article makes good points about the failure of the army to get rid of him.

Then it becomes poor garbage talking about the failure of not teaching kids to love this country enough.

No, it discusses actively teaching kids to think the country is bad. Big difference. A balanced and historically correct approach would be much better than the drivel being taught (and which is mentioned in the article).

**Crablezworth**

America totally values public edutcation..

**d-usa**

CptJake wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Article makes good points about the failure of the army to get rid of him.

Then it becomes poor garbage talking about the failure of not teaching kids to love this country enough.

No, it discusses actively teaching kids to think the country is bad. Big difference. A balanced and historically correct approach would be much better than the drivel being taught (and which is mentioned in the article).

There is a vast difference between teaching kids that this country did some bad things, and that it is a bad country.

And saying "we did bad things, but others did them too and some did them worse" does not make them any less bad nor does it make the country any better.

You can be a patriot and love this country while admitting that it did some fethed up things as well and still does bad things today.

**Crablezworth**

d-usa wrote:
CptJake wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Article makes good points about the failure of the army to get rid of him.

Then it becomes poor garbage talking about the failure of not teaching kids to love this country enough.

No, it discusses actively teaching kids to think the country is bad. Big difference. A balanced and historically correct approach would be much better than the drivel being taught (and which is mentioned in the article).

There is a vast difference between teaching kids that this country did some bad things, and that it is a bad country.

And saying "we did bad things, but others did them too and some did them worse" does not make them any less bad nor does it make the country any better.

You can be a patriot and love this country while admitting that it did some fethed up things as well and still does bad things today.

Agreed, there is eduction and there is indoctrination.

**Ahtman**

d-usa wrote:
You can be a patriot and love this country while admitting that it did some fethed up things as well and still does bad things today.

I bet you don't even wear a little flag pin all the time, like a true American.

Spoiler:

**FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs**

2 of my classmates in my high ability history class knew what the battle of the bulge was.

They also didn't understand what the second atomic bomb drop was for.

They also didn't think general patton's "accident" was suspicious.

**Ensis Ferrae**

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:

They also didn't think general patton's "accident" was suspicious.

because ultimately it was just an accident... Patton himself absolved the driver of all wrong doing prior to his death.

**Rented Tritium**

Did that article just claim that we don't teach kids about the holocaust?

I mean come on.

**MrDwhitey**

Rented Tritium wrote:
Did that article just claim that we don't teach kids about the holocaust?

I mean come on.

The Holocaust? Wasn't that the thing where Jews and ponies were rounded up?

Spoiler:

**Crablezworth**

In Ralph Peters's little world if the firebombing of Dresden doesn't give you a hard on for America you're not a patriot or something. Asking questions and finding answers should be part of an individual’s education, understandably for the military to function as it should there is indoctrination involved. For a military to work you can’t have everyone questioning orders, that’s understandable so I can forgive Mr. Peters a bit but he has to understand a public school isn’t a fething barracks. Education and indoctrination are two very different things and asking the occasional question can be an incredibly patriottic thing to do.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Crablezworth wrote:
In Ralph Peters's little world if the firebombing of Dresden doesn't give you a hard on for America you're not a patriot or something. Asking questions and finding answers should be part of an individual’s education, understandably for the military to function as it should there is indoctrination involved. For a military to work you can’t have everyone questioning orders, that’s understandable so I can forgive Mr. Peters a bit but he has to understand a public school isn’t a fething barracks. Education and indoctrination are two very different things and asking the occasional question can be an incredibly patriottic thing to do.

I'm sure Dresden was an RAF mission, but I agree with the sentiment of your comment.

**Crablezworth**

It was raf and usaaf, but yeah, I never like the rose colored glass view of WW2, it was a terrible time to be alive for most of the planet and total war is a race to the bottom for all sides involved.

**KalashnikovMarine**

The gaf about James Cameron is dumb too, his most recent hero was a U.S. Marine, and his brother (who Cameron idolizes) is a Marine NCO. Avatar slammed PMCs, which I would say isn't a bad thing looking at the track records of many merc companies in the world.

**Jihadin**

What are kids taught about our country now? They learn about our “collective guilt” for slavery — but not about the hundreds of thousands of Americans who died ending it. They learn about the “crime” of dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki — but not about the Bataan Death March. Guadalcanal? The Bulge? Nah. But they learn about the internment of Japanese-Americans — a regrettable mistake, but not the Holocaust.

In short, kids are programmed to feel ashamed of the United States of America. Young men such as Manning (who, yes, also attended school in peevishly anti-American Wales for several years) or Snowden make fateful decisions in a mental and moral near-vacuum littered with anti-American garbage.

I laughed so hard. Then again its Military History so why would they teach it in school. Pretty sure hardly no one knew what the "Bulge" was till Band of Brother. I'm sure no one remembers the main reason why two "bombs" were dropped on Japan. How fanatical they were to defend Okinawa which equate times five invasion of the home soil. The "Canal was the first major step in the Pacific to take the War to Japan. Kennedy PT109, "Tokyo Express", The "Pacific", Flag raising on Mount Suribachi on Iwo Jima....How many actually watch Flags of our Fathers or Letter to Home. That's off the top of my head. Though I'm in an environment that teaches that. Though I do remember being told why the Bomb was dropped on Japan to end WWII in school. I also remember why the "fear" to place Japanese Americans into camps. Mainly due to the US dealing with mix loyalty to the Emperor and the US. Also the fact the surprise attack of Pearl Harbor shocked everyone which wouldn't have been much of a surprise if their Embassy Ambassador to the US delivered the papers to the Government declaring a "state of hostility" existed. Hey I remember that as a bonus question on a high school test. Before anyone jumps the gun and rail at me for Japanese Americans I say look up 442nd and the main reason why they fought in Europe.

Then though patriotism back then is not ingrained as it is now. The Pledge of Allegiance is viewed as a bad thing now, Star Spangle Banner is viewed as a bad thing now. So what is today's version on what a true American is. I have my perception and sticking to it.

**djones520**

Actually I knew most of that Jihadin. Then again most of my eduction was in DODD schools.

**Ahtman**

I attended High School, and have helped teach in them, and I know teachers, but never have I seen or heard of anyone teaching 'our collective guilt for slavery'. I also don't know of any High School curriculum that doesn't mention the Holocaust during the WWII section. The whole thing is pure fantasy.

**Jihadin**

I've a feeling the "Holocaust" isn't discuss in length just a brush over. My last GF son in High School I browsed his History Book. (way before I got married to my current/only love of my life....who's right beside me..) It was like...well....a red Crayola was broking out. US History Book...same book...just had start and end dates, major participants, major incidents, focus points, and pretty much in my opinion brushed over. Though I went to high school 85-89. My English class I learned to hate Romeo and Juliet......Shakespear bio....I hated that white bearded SoB.....Grapes of Wrath book, and Little Red Poney and the movie of it with Robert Mitchem....and the WOODEN PADDLE...with holes drilled in it to better grip the butt. My history class teacher was a Vietnam Vet who died in 01 and yes I had quite a few beers with him at the VFW after I joined. He was the only interested in what it was like in Somalia and was madder then Hell at Aspen for denying armor PC to the US troops there. This guy was a protester to so it was funny when he showed me pics of him in his "hippy" days with a airborne tattoo

The current cycle of teachers now have actually lived a ordinary plain life style.

edit 2

About the only thing I can think of that effected everyone is the gas prices after Katrina

**whembly**

Ahtman wrote:
I attended High School, and have helped teach in them, and I know teachers, but never have I seen or heard of anyone teaching 'our collective guilt for slavery'. I also don't know of any High School curriculum that doesn't mention the Holocaust during the WWII section. The whole thing is pure fantasy.

Try attending school in a pre-dominately black area ( I did ).

There were plenty of the whole 'collective guilt for slavery' going on.

**KalashnikovMarine**

The Holocaust doesn't receive near the depth it probably deserves. I mean the number you get in school when I went to high school is six million, but that's JUST the Jews. It doesn't account for up to 11 million total "undesirables" and up to 26 million Russian civilians.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Holocaust doesn't receive near the depth it probably deserves. I mean the number you get in school when I went to high school is six million, but that's JUST the Jews. It doesn't account for up to 11 million total "undesirables" and up to 26 million Russian civilians.

It's only in recent years with the fall of the wall, that the Russian contribution is being acknowledge. A similar undertaking is going on in Britain with historical revisionism having a long hard look at some of Britain's WW2 myths.

Anyway, back OT. I don't know why Wales and the Welsh people are getting in the neck because Manning attended school there for a bit. Normally, I'm the first to blame the Welsh for most things

But to say that Wales is a hotbed of Anti-Americanism is plain silly. Most people in Wales don't even know where America is!

**Ahtman**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:The Holocaust doesn't receive near the depth it probably deserves.

It is High School, nothing really gets the depth it deserves almost by definition; it is a survey of information on a subject; if you want specialty that is what college is for, or outside reading.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I don't know why Wales and the Welsh people are getting in the neck because Manning attended school there for a bit. Normally, I'm the first to blame the Welsh for most things

But to say that Wales is a hotbed of Anti-Americanism is plain silly. Most people in Wales don't even know where America is!

It isn't in America, therefor it is anti-American.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Anyway, back OT. I don't know why Wales and the Welsh people are getting in the neck because Manning attended school there for a bit. Normally, I'm the first to blame the Welsh for most things

But to say that Wales is a hotbed of Anti-Americanism is plain silly. Most people in Wales don't even know where America is!

From what I understand, most Welsh don't know where England is.

Ahtman wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The Holocaust doesn't receive near the depth it probably deserves.

It is High School, nothing really gets the depth it deserves almost by definition; it is a survey of information on a subject; if you want specialty that is what college is for, or outside reading.
.

Sure but you can give people the right numbers at least.